Jerusalem Corpus Separatum

[Coyote]

I disagree, on several fronts.

First the Muslim community DID preserve those sites prior to the establishment of Israel, did they not?

Second - there is no evidence that joint control (as exists now) has failed.

Then you are either reading a different set of history books to the rest of the members or you are spouting islamonazi propaganda. Just look at the Church built there by the Christians that was demolished and replaced by a carbuncle to islam. Or the Jewish grave markers used to line a sewer, the remains dug up and thrown on a refuse heap. How is that preserving the site ?
So there are no attacks on Jews from muslims on or around the Temple Mount. No rocks dropped on the heads of Jews praying at the western wall, no stone's petrol bombs, fireworks thrown at Jews entering the Temple mount to start a riot .

You keep up the idiotic screeching of "islamonazi propoganda" but your inability to look beyond the last few years indicates a failure of reading comprehension.. (Review your history books).

Islam controlled the Middle East for over a thousand years. Many of the great monuments of older religions still stand. So clearly, Islam did a decent enough job of protecting them. The main threat now is extremist militias looting, pillaging and destroying that history. The lesser threat is who controls what in Jerusalem.

Currently, there is a lot of tension surrounding holy sites in Jerusalem - and it is driven by a mixture of emotions, conspiracy theory and bits of truth. There is a small fanatical group of Jewish extremists who believe they must tear down the Al Aqsa Mosque and build the Third Temple. This has driven an unfortunately widely believed conspiracy theory that Israel intends to destroy it and feeds every alarmist reaction to any attempted change on Israel's part even clearly reasonable ones like an umbrella at an entrance. How do you address that? I have no idea, but it's another reason why I believe joint control is so critical.

I say differently as the muslims have destroyed whenever they could in the last 1400 years anything that came before islam. Just look at the damage done to ancient ruins by Daesh in Palmyra. The Jewish artefacts thrown away from the Temple mount, the Christian churches destroyed or damaged.
Many of the ancient monuments have been defaced by the muslims both arab and non arab, and it is still going on today, look at what happens to Rachels Tomb on a regular basis when the Palestinians have their control of it.

And the arab muslims make a mountain out of a grain of sand again because it suits their propaganda and rhetoric. The group wanting the destruction is of no importance and no authority, but this does not stop the Palestinians from LYING about "Zionist" atrocities and breaches of international laws. Maybe a concerted effort by the rest of the world to dismantle the eyesores and have them shipped to the road outside Medina where the original Al Aqsa mosque stood would solve the issue.

That is complete bullshit. You are talking about damage done quite recently in the scheme of things by extremist groups such as ISIS and Taliban.

How long have those ancient ruins in Palmyra been preserved Phoenal and WHO preserved them?

And hamas, fatah, muslim brotherhood et al in Egypt, gaza, west bank and Jerusalem.

You do know where Rachels Tomb is don't you ?

Hamas, Fatah, MB have done very little damage.

 

[Shusha]

Sign in Hebrew and English outside the Temple Mount stating the Chief Rabbinate's preference that no person should enter the site, since it is the holiest site in Judaism

An Islamic Waqf has managed the Temple Mount continuously since the Muslim reconquest of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem in 1187. On June 7, 1967, soon after Israel had taken control of the area during the Six-Day War, Prime Minister Levi Eshkol assured that "no harm whatsoever shall come to the places sacred to all religions". Together with the extension of Israeli jurisdiction and administration over east Jerusalem, the Knesset passed the Preservation of the Holy Places Law,[74] ensuring protection of the Holy Places against desecration, as well as freedom of access thereto.[75] The site remains within the area controlled by the State of Israel, with administration of the site remaining in the hands of the Jerusalem Islamic Waqf.


Although freedom of access was enshrined in the law, as a security measure, the Israeli government currently enforces a ban on non-Muslim prayer on the site. Non-Muslims who are observed praying on the site are subject to expulsion by the police.[76] At various times, when there is fear of Arab rioting upon the mount resulting in throwing stones from above towards the Western Wall Plaza, Israel has prevented Muslim men under 45 from praying in the compound, citing these concerns.[77] Sometimes such restrictions have coincided with Friday prayers during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.[78] Normally, West Bank Palestinians are allowed access to Jerusalem only during Islamic holidays, with access usually restricted to men over 35 and women of any age eligible for permits to enter the city.[79] Palestinian residents of Jerusalem, which because of Israel's annexation of Jerusalem, hold Israeli permanent residency cards, and Israeli Arabs, are permitted unrestricted access to the Temple Mount.
​

To me, that indicates a joint control/administration.

It also indicates Israel's commitment in both word and deed to maintaining the delicate balance between access and security - even to the point that Israel restrict's the rights of the Jewish people in order to ensure access for Muslims despite their bad behavior.

Indicates that Israel is the MOST capable of properly controlling the Temple Mount.

 

[Coyote]

Sign in Hebrew and English outside the Temple Mount stating the Chief Rabbinate's preference that no person should enter the site, since it is the holiest site in Judaism

An Islamic Waqf has managed the Temple Mount continuously since the Muslim reconquest of the Latin Kingdom of Jerusalem in 1187. On June 7, 1967, soon after Israel had taken control of the area during the Six-Day War, Prime Minister Levi Eshkol assured that "no harm whatsoever shall come to the places sacred to all religions". Together with the extension of Israeli jurisdiction and administration over east Jerusalem, the Knesset passed the Preservation of the Holy Places Law,[74] ensuring protection of the Holy Places against desecration, as well as freedom of access thereto.[75] The site remains within the area controlled by the State of Israel, with administration of the site remaining in the hands of the Jerusalem Islamic Waqf.


Although freedom of access was enshrined in the law, as a security measure, the Israeli government currently enforces a ban on non-Muslim prayer on the site. Non-Muslims who are observed praying on the site are subject to expulsion by the police.[76] At various times, when there is fear of Arab rioting upon the mount resulting in throwing stones from above towards the Western Wall Plaza, Israel has prevented Muslim men under 45 from praying in the compound, citing these concerns.[77] Sometimes such restrictions have coincided with Friday prayers during the Islamic holy month of Ramadan.[78] Normally, West Bank Palestinians are allowed access to Jerusalem only during Islamic holidays, with access usually restricted to men over 35 and women of any age eligible for permits to enter the city.[79] Palestinian residents of Jerusalem, which because of Israel's annexation of Jerusalem, hold Israeli permanent residency cards, and Israeli Arabs, are permitted unrestricted access to the Temple Mount.
​

To me, that indicates a joint control/administration.

It also indicates Israel's commitment in both word and deed to maintaining the delicate balance between access and security - even to the point that Israel restrict's the rights of the Jewish people in order to ensure access for Muslims despite their bad behavior.

Indicates that Israel is the MOST capable of properly controlling the Temple Mount.

I disagree , it indicates that joint control - as it is now - is best.

 

[Shusha]

Hamas, Fatah, MB have done very little damage.

You're kidding, right?

 

[Coyote]

Hamas, Fatah, MB have done very little damage.

You're kidding, right?

What are we looking at and where are the links?

 

[Shusha]

The burning of Joseph's Tomb, Intifada 2002 and "debris" removed from the Temple Mount by the truckload. Google Temple Mount sifting project.

 

[Coyote]

The burning of Joseph's Tomb, Intifada 2002 and "debris" removed from the Temple Mount by the truckload. Google Temple Mount sifting project.

Intifada 2002 was war.

So one incident of severe damage (Joseph's Tomb) and a botched removal of the Temple Mount (which damaged the architectual integrity of the site) makes Hamas/Fatah/MB comparable to the Taliban and ISIS? I don't think so. I think this falls under the term "false moral equivalency".

 

[Lipush]

Hamas, Fatah, MB have done very little damage.

You're kidding, right?

What are we looking at and where are the links?

That's the burning of Joseph's tomb, the even that was hardly published in any of the world's media.

Grafitti on mosques is a crime, but burning a synagogue is not worthy of much as a little title, now, eh.

And they keep on saying Islam respects "all prophets".

 

[Lipush]

The burning of Joseph's Tomb, Intifada 2002 and "debris" removed from the Temple Mount by the truckload. Google Temple Mount sifting project.

Intifada 2002 was war.

So one incident of severe damage (Joseph's Tomb) and a botched removal of the Temple Mount (which damaged the architectual integrity of the site) makes Hamas/Fatah/MB comparable to the Taliban and ISIS? I don't think so. I think this falls under the term "false moral equivalency".

Hamas, in any aspects, is worse than ISIS. At least ISIS is honest and direct about their goal. Hamas is hiding behind being a "freedom fighting" organization, when in fact all it brings is death to both Jews and Palestinians.

 

[Coyote]

Hamas, Fatah, MB have done very little damage.

You're kidding, right?

What are we looking at and where are the links?

That's the burning of Joseph's tomb, the even that was hardly published in any of the world's media.

Grafitti on mosques is a crime, but burning a synagogue is not worthy of much as a little title, now, eh.

And they keep on saying Islam respects "all prophets".

Does torching a mosque count? A church? Or...is that "grafitti" in your book?

West Bank mosque torched, Jewish extremists suspected

West Bank mosque attack blamed on radical Israeli settlers - CNN.com

ISRAELI EXTREMISTS TORCH CHURCH, MOSQUE AND VANDALIZE PALESTINIAN SCHOOL – Miraj News Agency

Radical Jewish group’s head advocates burning churches

So much for respecting other religions...


From the last article I linked: Gopshtain responded to reports that he advocated burning churches by saying, “The law is straightforward, Maimonides’ interpretation is that one must burn idolatry. There’s not a single rabbi that would deliberate that fact. I expect the government of Israel to carry that out.”

That is no different than the words of Islamic extremists who tear down ancient religious artifacts, because they are "idolatry". Crazy people.

 

[Coyote]

The burning of Joseph's Tomb, Intifada 2002 and "debris" removed from the Temple Mount by the truckload. Google Temple Mount sifting project.

Intifada 2002 was war.

So one incident of severe damage (Joseph's Tomb) and a botched removal of the Temple Mount (which damaged the architectual integrity of the site) makes Hamas/Fatah/MB comparable to the Taliban and ISIS? I don't think so. I think this falls under the term "false moral equivalency".

Hamas, in any aspects, is worse than ISIS. At least ISIS is honest and direct about their goal. Hamas is hiding behind being a "freedom fighting" organization, when in fact all it brings is death to both Jews and Palestinians.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, no argument there but they are not worse - not even close.

 

[Humanity]

No.
BETHLEHEM (Ma‘an) 6 Apr — A group of Christians from East Jerusalem on Sunday said that Israel’s restrictions on Palestinian mobility resulted in violations of religious freedoms. The statement, signed “Palestinian Christian Organizations in Occupied East Jerusalem,” complained that Christians are often denied access to the Church of the Holy Sepulchre during the Easter holidays. Each Easter, checkpoints are erected “at the Gates and in the alley, thus preventing the worshipers from free access to the Via Dolorosa, the Church of the Holy Sepulchre, and the vicinity of the Christian Quarter.” Israel’s restrictions on Palestinian Christians are a part of larger strategy of Judaization in Jerusalem, the statement said. - See more at: Israeli restrictions over Palestinian movement violate Christian religious freedom during Easter

So let's be clear here:

YES, Christians are permitted access to their holy places.

YES, Christians are permitted to hold and perform whatever worship services are deemed appropriate by their own faith.

YES, Christians are permitted to pray there.

BUT the number of people who are permitted is (occasionally) restricted for safety and security reasons. And you do know that similar safety precautions are common throughout the world and do not represent religious discrimination, yes?

As opposed to Jewish people who are NOT permitted to access our holy site at times, and who are NOT permitted to pray there and are NOT permitted to conduct any worship services at all.

And by the way, one can not "Judaize" Jerusalem as Jerusalem is ALREADY Jewish and has been for three thousand years.

So the answer is NO then...

You even used the word "restricted" in your own post...

 

[Humanity]

The burning of Joseph's Tomb, Intifada 2002 and "debris" removed from the Temple Mount by the truckload. Google Temple Mount sifting project.

Intifada 2002 was war.

So one incident of severe damage (Joseph's Tomb) and a botched removal of the Temple Mount (which damaged the architectual integrity of the site) makes Hamas/Fatah/MB comparable to the Taliban and ISIS? I don't think so. I think this falls under the term "false moral equivalency".

Hamas, in any aspects, is worse than ISIS. At least ISIS is honest and direct about their goal. Hamas is hiding behind being a "freedom fighting" organization, when in fact all it brings is death to both Jews and Palestinians.

Hamas is a terrorist organization, no argument there but they are not worse - not even close.

For me, I don't think that classifying Hamas as a 'moderate' terrorist organisation is helpful...

Terrorism is terrorism!

 

[Shusha]

The burning of Joseph's Tomb, Intifada 2002 and "debris" removed from the Temple Mount by the truckload. Google Temple Mount sifting project.

Intifada 2002 was war.

So one incident of severe damage (Joseph's Tomb) and a botched removal of the Temple Mount (which damaged the architectual integrity of the site) makes Hamas/Fatah/MB comparable to the Taliban and ISIS? I don't think so. I think this falls under the term "false moral equivalency".

I wasn't comparing them to ISIS. You said that certain governments had done "very little damage". I consider the burning of one of the most holy sites in Judaism to be quite considerable amount of damage. And that pales in comparison to destroying precious archeological records by the truckload.

And out of curiosity, is "war" an excuse to destroy holy places? In your opinion?

 

[Shusha]

So the answer is NO then...

You even used the word "restricted" in your own post...

Oh please. Even Mecca is restricted for safety reasons at times due to the volume of people wishing to visit.

Let's not confuse the occasional safety issue with the intentional restrictions placed on Jewish people as though they were morally equivalent. They are not.

 

[Shusha]

That is no different than the words of Islamic extremists who tear down ancient religious artifacts, because they are "idolatry". Crazy people.

I agree. Crazy people. Crazy people need to be contained and prevented from harming others no matter which religious faith they are claiming to be acting for. And, of course, I loudly condemn the destruction of any holy places or places of worship.

The difference between the Christian/Jewish crazy people and the Muslim crazy people, imo, is one of scope.

 

[Lipush]

Hamas, Fatah, MB have done very little damage.

You're kidding, right?

What are we looking at and where are the links?

That's the burning of Joseph's tomb, the even that was hardly published in any of the world's media.

Grafitti on mosques is a crime, but burning a synagogue is not worthy of much as a little title, now, eh.

And they keep on saying Islam respects "all prophets".

Does torching a mosque count? A church? Or...is that "grafitti" in your book?

West Bank mosque torched, Jewish extremists suspected

West Bank mosque attack blamed on radical Israeli settlers - CNN.com

ISRAELI EXTREMISTS TORCH CHURCH, MOSQUE AND VANDALIZE PALESTINIAN SCHOOL – Miraj News Agency

Radical Jewish group’s head advocates burning churches

So much for respecting other religions...


From the last article I linked: Gopshtain responded to reports that he advocated burning churches by saying, “The law is straightforward, Maimonides’ interpretation is that one must burn idolatry. There’s not a single rabbi that would deliberate that fact. I expect the government of Israel to carry that out.”

That is no different than the words of Islamic extremists who tear down ancient religious artifacts, because they are "idolatry". Crazy people.

Judaism never called itself "religion of peace" like Islam does while burning our synagogues.

Of course burning mosques and churches is unacceptable.

But my point was, you've never heard of the incident of Joseph's tomb until now. right?

Because the media doesn't tell you about this, because when they do it to us it's not newsworthy.

If it was a price tag thing they would have gone to our throats.

You're a clever one, you know what I'm getting at.

 

[montelatici]

Of the 3 major "western" religions, only Christianity is a religion of peace. Islam and Judaism are both fundamentally religions of conquest and conflict with those that do not adhere to said religions. Admittedly we Christians often do not practice what Jesus preached.

 

[Humanity]

So the answer is NO then...

You even used the word "restricted" in your own post...

Oh please. Even Mecca is restricted for safety reasons at times due to the volume of people wishing to visit.

Let's not confuse the occasional safety issue with the intentional restrictions placed on Jewish people as though they were morally equivalent. They are not.

Oh please...

Restricted is restricted...

And, oh please, let's hope that "safety issue" is not hijacked for the sole use of zionists in the same way as "Semitic" has been hijacked for the sole use of zionists!

If people are restricted then it is NOT open to all...

 

[ForeverYoung436]

Pfft, you miss the point....

But you are absolutely right, Israel would never let go of their unrecognised, occupied 'capital'.

But you understand WHY, yes?

Well, I have my views as to why yes...

I am guessing you are talking about 'security'? Well, with an international 'body' taking sole responsibility for Jerusalem and the security within, I don't think that is an issue... Maybe a 'perceived' issue for Israelis AND Palestinians alike, but, until there is some kind of action taken over Jerusalem there will never be peace.

It's not only security. Jerusalem represents the deepest emotions within every Jewish heart. Even secular Israelis who spend Shabbat on the beach instinctively know that an Israel without Jerusalem is like a body without a soul. A rebuilt Jerusalem is mentioned in daily prayers, and the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 CE is the subject of 4 out of the 6 annual fast days in the Jewish calendar. A glass is broken at every Jewish wedding in memory of 70 CE, and pictures of Jerusalem adorn every Jewish home. Like it says in the Bible, "If I forget thee O Jerusalem, let my right hand wither. Let my tongue cleave to the roof of my mouth, if I remember not Jerusalem above my greatest joy!"

Maybe as a Gentile, Humanity, you can't understand our connection to Jerusalem, but what's funny about it?