It’s Constitutional

RE: [whoever wrote] in the Constitution that the Supreme Court has jurisdiction in all matters between a State and the federal Government?

1. yes by the letter of the law the Judiciary decides interpretation of law, and yes the SC has the final word at the top of the chain
2. however, by the spirit of the law, what if the SC makes a bad decision that is unconstitutional (such as the KELO decision that had to be corrected with legislation, or the Terri Schaivo case where a Judge in a lower court gave jurisdiction to someone with a clear conflict of interest when there was no written proof she requested an end of life directive)
3. if we don't allow the PEOPLE to be the final check on govt, we risk tyranny and even contradict a similar notion of separating church from state authority if we let judges "mandate" an interpretation without check. On that note, Jefferson's writings say two different things: (a) on one hand he acknowledged that REASON was the final check on govt so it was clear he understood that govt could get abused no matter how well the laws were written to check and balance the powers and decisions (b) on the other hand he acknowledged something close to "divine right" where public officials might make decisions by God's guidance or by some other wisdom or insight other than what public opinion demands, and he recognized this divine capacity. So if you want to argue for separation of church and state, this crosses that line, even with secular govt.

And that is why we still fight for the same reasons as people were contesting church authority. Unless we have a CONSENSUS on laws and decisions, there is always a chance the wrong decisions can be made for the wrong reasons. So this is why I advocate for resolving conflicts BEFORE laws are passed, so you can tell the difference; otherwise, how can you know there isn't some conflict of interest causing a bad decision which could have been resolved a better way if you don't question and push for resolution and consensus?
If we are going to live up to the standards of "equal justice" and "equal protection" of interests under law, then consensus on policy would guarantee any issues or conflicts between beliefs or agenda would have to be resolved, in order for public policy to truly reflect and represent all people and parties equally, not favoring some over others.

Anything less than that, and you are risking ethics violations and biased policies that favor one group, interests or beliefs over others, which is technically unconstitutional by discrimination and not protecting all people's beliefs, due process and representation equally.

Just because we put up with less than equal justice, doesn't make it right.
Plenty of musicians play out of tune because they can't always be perfect, but that doesn't
change what "perfect pitch" means and what tune we really should be playing to be correct.
We tolerate compromises as long as we generally get what we want, and don't think we can do better; and only when we notice it is too far out of kilter then we start complaining. But technically, all these rulings and laws which have biases and favor one person or group's beliefs over others are unconstitutional by not representing and protecting all people equally.
It is only legal if we consent to follow them anyway; and where we do not consent, there is no basis in law to uphold it, and that is why people dissent and push to correct such flaws.

What Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, that the just powers of government are derived from "consent of the governed" stands true as a natural law,
that all laws as social contracts are made binding by consent; so that where you don't have consent of the people, contracts and laws cannot be enforced except by coercion/bullying/ oppression which is not the spirit of the laws but political force against the will of the people.

That is clearly not the intent of democracy; so again, this is why I emphasize conflict resolution and consensus to prevent decisions from being pushed by political manipulation.
 
If we allow "the people" as the final check on SCOTUS decisions, we destroy the republican nature of our government. The people make their feelings known in elections, and the legislatures have certain powers in lawmaking, amending, withholding, or otherwise changing the decisions of judges.
 
RE: [whoever wrote] in the Constitution that the Supreme Court has jurisdiction in all matters between a State and the federal Government?

1. yes by the letter of the law the Judiciary decides interpretation of law, and yes the SC has the final word at the top of the chain
2. however, by the spirit of the law, what if the SC makes a bad decision that is unconstitutional (such as the KELO decision that had to be corrected with legislation, or the Terri Schaivo case where a Judge in a lower court gave jurisdiction to someone with a clear conflict of interest when there was no written proof she requested an end of life directive)
3. if we don't allow the PEOPLE to be the final check on govt, we risk tyranny and even contradict a similar notion of separating church from state authority if we let judges "mandate" an interpretation without check. On that note, Jefferson's writings say two different things: (a) on one hand he acknowledged that REASON was the final check on govt so it was clear he understood that govt could get abused no matter how well the laws were written to check and balance the powers and decisions (b) on the other hand he acknowledged something close to "divine right" where public officials might make decisions by God's guidance or by some other wisdom or insight other than what public opinion demands, and he recognized this divine capacity. So if you want to argue for separation of church and state, this crosses that line, even with secular govt.

And that is why we still fight for the same reasons as people were contesting church authority. Unless we have a CONSENSUS on laws and decisions, there is always a chance the wrong decisions can be made for the wrong reasons. So this is why I advocate for resolving conflicts BEFORE laws are passed, so you can tell the difference; otherwise, how can you know there isn't some conflict of interest causing a bad decision which could have been resolved a better way if you don't question and push for resolution and consensus?
If we are going to live up to the standards of "equal justice" and "equal protection" of interests under law, then consensus on policy would guarantee any issues or conflicts between beliefs or agenda would have to be resolved, in order for public policy to truly reflect and represent all people and parties equally, not favoring some over others.

Anything less than that, and you are risking ethics violations and biased policies that favor one group, interests or beliefs over others, which is technically unconstitutional by discrimination and not protecting all people's beliefs, due process and representation equally.

Just because we put up with less than equal justice, doesn't make it right.
Plenty of musicians play out of tune because they can't always be perfect, but that doesn't
change what "perfect pitch" means and what tune we really should be playing to be correct.
We tolerate compromises as long as we generally get what we want, and don't think we can do better; and only when we notice it is too far out of kilter then we start complaining. But technically, all these rulings and laws which have biases and favor one person or group's beliefs over others are unconstitutional by not representing and protecting all people equally.
It is only legal if we consent to follow them anyway; and where we do not consent, there is no basis in law to uphold it, and that is why people dissent and push to correct such flaws.

What Jefferson wrote in the Declaration of Independence, that the just powers of government are derived from "consent of the governed" stands true as a natural law,
that all laws as social contracts are made binding by consent; so that where you don't have consent of the people, contracts and laws cannot be enforced except by coercion/bullying/ oppression which is not the spirit of the laws but political force against the will of the people.

That is clearly not the intent of democracy; so again, this is why I emphasize conflict resolution and consensus to prevent decisions from being pushed by political manipulation.

The SC is not the final say in the matter, any more than the Congress or President. The SC simply is the final arbiter of whether something is within the Constitution. However, nothing stops the Congress or the states from amending the Constitution if they so choose. It has happened.

I am always leery when someone talks about the People. More often than not, "the People" turn out to be a very small group indeed.
 
The only way the mess in DC will ever be fixed is the states recall it's state guard and use those forces and take control of DC and remove any one that does not step down.
 
Does the Constitution Permit the Blue States to Secede?
With Permission, Perhaps; Unilaterally, No
By MICHAEL C. DORF
Wednesday, Nov. 24, 2004

Still smarting from the results of the Presidential and Congressional elections, a number of Democrats and liberal pundits have opined that the "blue states" ought to secede from the Union. The electoral map looks amenable to the plan. By joining with culturally sympathetic Canada, the blue states of the East Coast, the West Coast and the upper Midwest could create a contiguous land mass, with only the islands of the blue state of Hawaii left at a distance.
FindLaw's Writ - Dorf: Does the Constitution Permit the Blue States to Secede?
 
Many of the far right and libertarian wings here patently threaten the safety of other Americans.
 
If we allow "the people" as the final check on SCOTUS decisions, we destroy the republican nature of our government. The people make their feelings known in elections, and the legislatures have certain powers in lawmaking, amending, withholding, or otherwise changing the decisions of judges.

Dear Jake:
the destruction happens if either the people have more say over the govt or the govt has more say over the people, and rely on THAT to make decisions instead of solving the actual problems in a way that is mutually satisfactory.

What I'm saying to prevent political coercion and manipulation/bullying from subverting the democratic/due process is to have CONSENSUS on decisions to resolve conflicts.

So this is NEITHER popular opinion running the govt NOR govt mandates running over the representation and interests of the people.

That way, both the interests and concerns/grievances of the people are redressed (and not oppressed by obstructing due process) AND the collective govt and authority is ALSO respected and not subverted by private agenda or interests causing the conflict.

by RESOLVING the conflicts then the point is to ELIMINATE corruption, abuse or political bullying from the process altogether. people would be FORCED to stick to what is the true issue and what is the real solution that is going to resolve the grievances, address the problems and settle the conflicts. people would have to stick to what is true, fair and accurate in order to resolve things on that level, instead of taking shortcuts to manipulate public opinion, votes or elections.
 
:laugh2:


how stupid are most people here?

Most people I know are well versed and experienced in some areas, and completely lacking in others. For all the expert sI know who are at the top of their field, they are going to
be completely at a loss in another area that comes naturally to someone else.

And as for weak areas where people are 'stupid' or even "willfully ignorant"
this can be remedied by sharing knowledge openly and equally with respect,
where corrections are best received by NOT treating people like they are stupid
(unless of course, we admit the same, that we are just as stupid about some things).

Recognizing we all have equal strengths as weaknesses, in respective areas,
tends to make it more amenable to correcting each other without so much
emotional conflict and "defensiveness" getting in the way. Just my observation.
If you treat people like they are stupid, they will continue to act that way.
If you have faith people would rather have correct information and better solutions,
you can focus the discussion in that direction and not waste words insulting
each other's intelligence.
 
Thomas Jefferson and Huey Long would love your arguments.

Rational individuals know such consensus is the product of our elected legislatures and appointed judges.

If we allow "the people" as the final check on SCOTUS decisions, we destroy the republican nature of our government. The people make their feelings known in elections, and the legislatures have certain powers in lawmaking, amending, withholding, or otherwise changing the decisions of judges.

Dear Jake:
the destruction happens if either the people have more say over the govt or the govt has more say over the people, and rely on THAT to make decisions instead of solving the actual problems in a way that is mutually satisfactory.

What I'm saying to prevent political coercion and manipulation/bullying from subverting the democratic/due process is to have CONSENSUS on decisions to resolve conflicts.

So this is NEITHER popular opinion running the govt NOR govt mandates running over the representation and interests of the people.

That way, both the interests and concerns/grievances of the people are redressed (and not oppressed by obstructing due process) AND the collective govt and authority is ALSO respected and not subverted by private agenda or interests causing the conflict.

by RESOLVING the conflicts then the point is to ELIMINATE corruption, abuse or political bullying from the process altogether. people would be FORCED to stick to what is the true issue and what is the real solution that is going to resolve the grievances, address the problems and settle the conflicts. people would have to stick to what is true, fair and accurate in order to resolve things on that level, instead of taking shortcuts to manipulate public opinion, votes or elections.
 
:laugh2:


how stupid are most people here?

Most people I know are well versed and experienced in some areas, and completely lacking in others. For all the expert sI know who are at the top of their field, they are going to
be completely at a loss in another area that comes naturally to someone else.

And as for weak areas where people are 'stupid' or even "willfully ignorant"
this can be remedied by sharing knowledge openly and equally with respect,
where corrections are best received by NOT treating people like they are stupid
(unless of course, we admit the same, that we are just as stupid about some things).

Recognizing we all have equal strengths as weaknesses, in respective areas,
tends to make it more amenable to correcting each other without so much
emotional conflict and "defensiveness" getting in the way. Just my observation.
If you treat people like they are stupid, they will continue to act that way.


If you have faith people would rather have correct information and better solutions,
you can focus the discussion in that direction and not waste words insulting
each other's intelligence.

what a crock-oh-shit
 
The only way the mess in DC will ever be fixed is the states recall it's state guard and use those forces and take control of DC and remove any one that does not step down.

well as much as I'd love to see that you have to consider that if the states were predisposed to do that they might instead have the will to just elect conservative/libertarians and accomplishe much the same thing.
 
You stains will be put against the war if you ever rise up. We fight are wars electorally, in no other way.
 

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