Israeli army used flechettes against Gaza civilians

[Kalam]

Now, if you don't have a problem with that - of being scared for your life every day,

How about actually losing your life?

Yeah... living in Southern Israel is sooo tough compared to Gaza.

well then I suggest you move to Sderdot and stand outside in an open field the next time those motherfuckers lob a rocket over into Israel.

No Israeli mark is going on my passport anytime soon.

Kalam, would you be alright with Sderot residents firing 100s of daily missiles at random Gaza targets, where very few people get killed, but homes are destroyed and people live in a constant state of needing to take cover (which makes their lives hell)?

That would almost be as stupid as haphazardly bombing civilian city blocks and neighborhoods. But, hell, it would certainly be better than Cast Lead.

See you miss the point! If the missile attacks stopped, as they did during the "Hamas Rearming" I mean truce, then the Israeli attacks on Gaza will cease and Palestinian live would get better!

Bullshit. Hamas stopped its missile attacks and, for the most part, prevented missile attacks from other groups for multiple months during the ceasefire. Wanna guess what Israel did?

Nothing.

 

[Kalam]

You're dead either way. The only difference is are you being used as a human shield by a terrorist organization or is your government providing you with some kind of bomb shelter protection?

Not exactly. One way, I have a rather minuscule chance of dying. I also have access to food, clean water, an education, and adequate medical treatment.

 

[DiveCon]

Divecon if white phosporus shells are being lobbed into a densely populated civilian metropolis home to over a million people to be used as an anti-personel weapon rather then a smoke screen to mask troop movements it is illegal.

yet it was ruled it wasnt illegal

 

[DiveCon]

You're dead either way. The only difference is are you being used as a human shield by a terrorist organization or is your government providing you with some kind of bomb shelter protection?

Not exactly. One way, I have a rather minuscule chance of dying. I also have access to food, clean water, an education, and adequate medical treatment.

ah, so Israeli's should just deal with it
right
fuck the jews, let them dodge daily rocket attacks, they cant ever respond
if you dont want shit raining down on YOU then don't start throwing shit YOURSELF

 

[dj defkawn]

So DiveCon what world body exactly determined this? Because last I heard the United Nations even is still pretty ticked about the Jan 15th White Phosphorus shell strike that hit their main Gaza compound destroying literally tons of food aid. Indiscriminately firing a highly inaccurate weapon at an area you know is packed with civilians isn't legal, by you Israeli or a Hamas militant.

 

[dj defkawn]

Actually DiveCon that isn't what Kalam was saying at all. When you look at it from a statistical stand point, a resident of Sderot had a much better chance of survival then those who live in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, and they don't have to rely on the UN to eat or receive medical treatment, or an education.

 

[Kalam]

Divecon if white phosporus shells are being lobbed into a densely populated civilian metropolis home to over a million people to be used as an anti-personel weapon rather then a smoke screen to mask troop movements it is illegal.

yet it was ruled it wasnt illegal

Which obviously means that it's A-OK.

 

[dj defkawn]

But the point I think we're all trying to get at here is that no civilian Israeli or Palestinian should have to live like they are being forced to.

 

[Kalam]

But the point I think we're all trying to get at here is that no civilian Israeli or Palestinian should have to live like they are being forced to.

I agree. I think nothing of men who fire missiles into civilian areas, whether they're members of Hamas or of the IDF. To some members of the pro-Israel crowd, though, criticizing the IDF's civilian-killing tactics is a form of blasphemy against Israel Almighty. Some of us are strongly opposed to tactics that needlessly endanger civilians regardless of which side uses those tactics. Others are willing to criticize one side for doing something, but begin rationalizing at the speed of light and sweeping things under the rug whenever the object of their veneration commits the same atrocities on a larger scale.

 

[GHook93]

But the point I think we're all trying to get at here is that no civilian Israeli or Palestinian should have to live like they are being forced to.

I agree. I think nothing of men who fire missiles into civilian areas, whether they're members of Hamas or of the IDF. To some members of the pro-Israel crowd, though, criticizing the IDF's civilian-killing tactics is a form of blasphemy against Israel Almighty. Some of us are strongly opposed to tactics that needlessly endanger civilians regardless of which side uses those tactics. Others are willing to criticize one side for doing something, but begin rationalizing at the speed of light and sweeping things under the rug whenever the object of their veneration commits the same atrocities on a larger scale.

You might not thing much of men firing missiles into civilians locations and FROM CIVILIAN LOCATIONS IN GAZA, but its happening and a response is needed to stop it. It is very unfortunate that Palestinian civilians get caught in the cross-fire, but that is urban warfare and in urban warfare, colateral damage is unavoidable!

 

[Kalam]

but its happening and a response is needed to stop it.

Cast Lead sure didn't accomplish this or anything else outside of ruining any chance of Israel having relations with its neighbors, needlessly destroying civilian lives, and creating an even worse economic situation in Gaza by damaging infrastructure.

Missile attacks are viewed by Hamas as a means of self-defense and of creating an "atmosphere of fear" in Israel similar to that created by Israel in Gaza. Does that justify those attacks? No, but they're going to keep coming for those reasons. Hamas is simply going to fire more missiles if Israel responds militarily. There are two ways to stop missile attacks for sure: level the Gaza strip, or work towards peace by drafting a treaty and abiding by its terms. Option one will result in universal condemnation and in Israel's destruction. The direction that needs to be taken seems pretty damn clear to me.

 

[DiveCon]

Actually DiveCon that isn't what Kalam was saying at all. When you look at it from a statistical stand point, a resident of Sderot had a much better chance of survival then those who live in Gaza during Operation Cast Lead, and they don't have to rely on the UN to eat or receive medical treatment, or an education.

maybe so, but Op cast lead wasnt a daily occurance for 3 years, was it?

 

[DiveCon]

But the point I think we're all trying to get at here is that no civilian Israeli or Palestinian should have to live like they are being forced to.

I agree. I think nothing of men who fire missiles into civilian areas, whether they're members of Hamas or of the IDF. To some members of the pro-Israel crowd, though, criticizing the IDF's civilian-killing tactics is a form of blasphemy against Israel Almighty. Some of us are strongly opposed to tactics that needlessly endanger civilians regardless of which side uses those tactics. Others are willing to criticize one side for doing something, but begin rationalizing at the speed of light and sweeping things under the rug whenever the object of their veneration commits the same atrocities on a larger scale.

and FROM civilian areas, making those areas targets

 

[DiveCon]

Divecon if white phosporus shells are being lobbed into a densely populated civilian metropolis home to over a million people to be used as an anti-personel weapon rather then a smoke screen to mask troop movements it is illegal.

yet it was ruled it wasnt illegal

Which obviously means that it's A-OK.

no, it means that the use was legal
now, did mistakes happen?
no doubt

 

[GHook93]

Cast Lead sure didn't accomplish this or anything else outside of ruining any chance of Israel having relations with its neighbors, needlessly destroying civilian lives, and creating an even worse economic situation in Gaza by damaging infrastructure.

Cast Lead sent a strong message to Hamas and hurt them as an organization!

Missile attacks are viewed by Hamas as a means of self-defense and of creating an "atmosphere of fear" in Israel similar to that created by Israel in Gaza.

Hamas's attacks are offensive Israel's acts are retalitory. You know my stance, Israel and Hamas (along with Fatah) need to sit down at the negotiating talk, but Hamas seems just as unwilling as Israel is!

Does that justify those attacks? No, but they're going to keep coming for those reasons. Hamas is simply going to fire more missiles if Israel responds militarily. There are two ways to stop missile attacks for sure: level the Gaza strip, or work towards peace by drafting a treaty and abiding by its terms
Option one will result in universal condemnation and in Israel's destruction. The direction that needs to be taken seems pretty damn clear to me.

I like the 2nd idea, but how do you negotiate peace when one side is calling for the other sides complete annihiliation?

 

[DiveCon]

but its happening and a response is needed to stop it.

Cast Lead sure didn't accomplish this or anything else outside of ruining any chance of Israel having relations with its neighbors, needlessly destroying civilian lives, and creating an even worse economic situation in Gaza by damaging infrastructure.

Missile attacks are viewed by Hamas as a means of self-defense and of creating an "atmosphere of fear" in Israel similar to that created by Israel in Gaza. Does that justify those attacks? No, but they're going to keep coming for those reasons. Hamas is simply going to fire more missiles if Israel responds militarily. There are two ways to stop missile attacks for sure: level the Gaza strip, or work towards peace by drafting a treaty and abiding by its terms. Option one will result in universal condemnation and in Israel's destruction. The direction that needs to be taken seems pretty damn clear to me.

there would be no need of fear in Gaza if Hamas would stop the rocket and missile and mortar attacks into Israel

 

[DavidS]

Uh, no, I'm actually thinking of ancient Israel that existed for over 3000 years before the Romans changed the name to Syriana Philistia Provencia which was later interpreted to Palestine.

So it used to exist. It hasn't "always existed".

Incorrect. It has always existed. You can re-name Persia into Iran, but the people there are Persians, not Iranians. The Roman Empire can re-name Israel into Ishkabibbel with pink polka dots if they care to, but the land is and always will be Israel.

 

[dj defkawn]

DiveCon again it might do you a little bit of good to get some factual information when you make a claim lol.

It wasn't three years that rockets were occuring, it was 8 years. 8 years that the people of Southern Israel have suffered, and their goverment protects them by lindiscriminately leveling homes, businesses, and sometime entire neighborhoods in Gaza. Undoubtably further pissing off the militants still with an extreme stranglehold on power, mad because over 1000 people were killed and several thousand were injured, with huge portions of fragile civilian infrastructure leveled, when the IDF unleashed on Gaza the amount of rockets fired by militants in 8 years at the South probably 100 times over in just 22 days of fighting. All the while really not accomplishing much of any sort of military objective, and after pulling out of Gaza, having left the citizens of Southern Israel back at square one running for the bomb shelters after near daily bombardments from terrorist elements in Gaza, it's really quite sad.

 

[dj defkawn]

DiveCon you and many people seem to forget that the Israeli occupation started way before terrorist elements started shooting rockets at Southern Gaza.

 

[DavidS]

DavidS the only people i'm talking about it being such a horrible way to die, is the civilians of Gaza caught in the crossfire, the ones who aren't militants. The people just as afraid as the residents of Sderot because the equivelant of the amount of rockets lobbed into Israel by militant nutjobs for 8 years, many times over was rained down into Gaza in just 22 days. People who could do little more then sit in their homes and prey they wouldn't be the next home to get hit.

Israel does not fire rockets into homes of Gaza civilians every day of the week. Israel had a military invasion to put a stop to the rockets being launched into Israel and there were human shields used by Hamas. Around 300 Arab civilians were killed because of that. Horrible? Yes. Preventable? Yes. Should Israel decide AGAINST firing into homes, mosques and schools where rockets are being fired at Israel? No. Is Israel murdering around 300 Arab civilians? No. Hamas is forcing the people to stay there. Those people have no choice but to stay there and Israel has no choice but to destroy the buildings. It's a lose-lose scenario.

But also granted you may have a few points regarding the emergance of Islam. But even though the religion may have emerged when it did, the ethnic groups in the area have a histroy in the region that dates back just as far as the Israelis does that predates Islam.

Actually, no, they don't. Arabs were always traders back in the day, so most of them didn't really have a home. They were wanderers. However; the greatest concentration of Arabs were in Arabia. The first time really anything more than a handfull of Arabs ever set foot and stayed on Israeli soil was in the 800s or so when the Islamic Empire went to war against the Eastern Roman or Byzantine Empire and helped free the Jews from their grasp. This was well after Israel had been conquered by the Romans and well after the formation of Islam. The Arabs have had absolutely no significant population in any other area besides ancient Arabia pre-Islam. And the Arabs were only in Israel for a few hundred years before the Christians kicked them out.