Israel?

[Publius]

People in this country need to ask tough questions, the right ones. Zionists have wanted to take Palestine for decades because of their religious belief that it should belong to them. Palestinians and more importantly muslims in general have been in conflict with Zionists as far back as you want to go. Accordingly, a majority of muslims dislike jews and those who support jews, much the same way this country dislikes terrorists. Since the U.S. supports Israel many muslims have bad feelings toward us, which begs the question:why do we support this state?

Some say b/c it's a democracy...but surely we would dump other dem. states if it meant avoiding another 9/11

Some say it's history, we've always done it since the state was founded......
when do we cut losses? why embroil half a population of the middle east for the sake of repetition?

It can't be b/c of economic aid or trade w/ Israel, unless they're offering a great price on sand.

Why?

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by Publius
People in this country need to ask tough questions, the right ones. Zionists have wanted to take Palestine for decades because of their religious belief that it should belong to them. Palestinians and more importantly muslims in general have been in conflict with Zionists as far back as you want to go. Accordingly, a majority of muslims dislike jews and those who support jews, much the same way this country dislikes terrorists. Since the U.S. supports Israel many muslims have bad feelings toward us, which begs the question:why do we support this state?

Some say b/c it's a democracy...but surely we would dump other dem. states if it meant avoiding another 9/11

Some say it's history, we've always done it since the state was founded......
when do we cut losses? why embroil half a population of the middle east for the sake of repetition?

It can't be b/c of economic aid or trade w/ Israel, unless they're offering a great price on sand.

Why?

if they don't like us because we support Israel's right to exist, fuck em.

 

[Publius]

Israel's right to exist, or her right to expand? F**K em'? That's worked thus far...
You would rather "F**K em" (i assume "em" refers to the entire middle eastern community) but why?
Pride? As in the U.S. couldn't possibly be wrong?
Again; rather than address any issue whatsoever, or attempt to find justificaiton for our support, you have expunged the sum of your knowledge in two simple words.

I'm proud of you.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Publius
Israel's right to exist, or her right to expand? F**K em'? That's worked thus far...
You would rather "F**K em" (i assume "em" refers to the entire middle eastern community) but why?
Pride? As in the U.S. couldn't possibly be wrong?
Again; rather than address any issue whatsoever, or attempt to find justificaiton for our support, you have expunged the sum of your knowledge in two simple words.

I'm proud of you.

And you do it in 30000 words with no proof or substantive meaning.

Prove Biblical justification to be wrong.

 

[Publius]

Prove Biblical justification to be wrong.

Sorry about the 30,000 words; didn't know reading was a problem for you.

No proof or substantive meaning?
While the accuser becomes the accused I take note of the fact that when one is utterly defeated (or ignorant, or uninformed) one does not answer "tough questions" like those I posed to you.
Despite posting twice, you have FAILED to even attempt to answer my question.

Biblical justification for Israel?
Surely you are so right, it couldn't be wrong. Which bible are you going from...they must all be right. So what about other religious justifications? Should we accept religion as fact? Which ones? Islam? Christianity? Judaism? Nazisim was spawned from the Christian Socialist movement who devoutly followed their Bible; if biblical justification is absolute, we are idiots.

I do believe that we were supposed to be discussing U.S. support and why; but since you can't hold a line of thought....

I think the Bible speaks of the Zionist return to Jerusalem, not Israel. I admittedly could be wrong on this and for the sake of your intellectual pride I hope I am. I certainly don't know my Bible as well as some.

Mom's proud too.

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by Publius
Israel's right to exist, or her right to expand? F**K em'? That's worked thus far...
You would rather "F**K em" (i assume "em" refers to the entire middle eastern community) but why?
Pride? As in the U.S. couldn't possibly be wrong?
Again; rather than address any issue whatsoever, or attempt to find justificaiton for our support, you have expunged the sum of your knowledge in two simple words.

I'm proud of you.

I think you are misreading what he is saying. What he is saying is if people who want to commit genocide dont like us, who cares?

 

[Publius]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
Take it easy Pubes - newbies get eaten up pretty fast around here with an attitude like that!

Take your best shot. Pubes? Publius...is the name that Madison, Jay, and Hamilton wrote the Federalist papers under. People graduating public high schools everywhere have learned this. Really no attitude here; thanks for not addressing the post's question.

Publius

 

[Publius]

Originally posted by Avatar4321
I think you are misreading what he is saying. What he is saying is if people who want to commit genocide dont like us, who cares?

I think you misread the post's question. I asked for justification for U.S. support for Israel. So far I have nothing even resembling a coherent argument to rebut here.
Genocide? Where did that come from. Muslims are genocidal? Put your waders on boys cuz it's gettin' deep in here.

My point, gentlemen is simple. Why upset an entire region for the sake of a country which offers NOTHING.

All I want, is a justification. Simple, easy, right? Not hard.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by Publius

Why?

Why not?

Because they share our values.

Because they were a bulwark against communist expansion.

Because they represent a permanent foothold in the oil rich middle east.

Because they are our friend.

If a bully told you to stop being friends with someone or he would punch you again, what would you do?

 

[Publius]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
Again why the need for the justification? what do you offer? nothing that I can see so far!

Ok. Please go back to video game land. Why the need for justification? B/C that's what the post is about, that's what I asked for, if you don't have anything remotely intelligent to say about it; YOU ARE IN THE WRONG ROOM! GO FIND A CHAT ABOUT FANTASY, FICTION, VIDEOGAMES, it's more your style. If that was your best shot, stay home. Thanks for regulating though, we needed that.

SIRRRRRR EVILLLLL!
Is that something from dungeons and dragons? Wow. You belong here. You have a lot of intelligent things to say.

 

[Publius]

Originally posted by Zhukov
Why not?

Because they share our values.

Because they were a bulwark against communist expansion.

Because they represent a permanent foothold in the oil rich middle east.

Because they are our friend.

If a bully told you to stop being friends with someone or he would punch you again, what would you do?

OK! THANK YOU FOR MAKING AN ARGUMENT!
You are the most intelligent person in here yet. I seriously didn't mean to be indecent with the others, I was hoping for what you provided: coherent thought coupled with an actual response.

But now that we are discussing the issue:
1. Is sharing our values a good enough reason to trade our stability? Which values?

2. Communist expansion? Oh Nixon, the Heiss trial is over. Communists are limited to China, and N. Korea and a few other armpits. Where do you see "expansion", is there a growing empire I missed somewhere?

3. True. But how valuable a foothold. Israels oil exports surely could not match the benefit we would gain by being nuetral. Imagine (strictly from an perspective on Oil) what advantages the Saudis/Iranians/Kuwaiti's even Palestinians could give us if we were neutral.

4. How many other friends in the middle east we would gain w/out Israel.

5. The bully question. You are right there. I am not an advocate of appeasement. However, this is not an individual bully. This is the disfavor of an entire region, and religion. We come across as enemies even on a religious level the muslum nations opposing Israel.

 

[Zhukov]

Originally posted by Publius
1. Is sharing our values a good enough reason to trade our stability? Which values?

It's enough reason to co-operate to work toward increasing both of our stability. We help ourselves when we help our friends.

2. Communist expansion? Oh Nixon, the Heiss trial is over. Communists are limited to China, and N. Korea and a few other armpits. Where do you see "expansion", is there a growing empire I missed somewhere?

I said 'were' in my statement. Past tense. It was an indication of the roots of our friendship. The begining of our co-operation.

3. True. But how valuable a foothold. Israels oil exports surely could not match the benefit we would gain by being nuetral. Imagine (strictly from an perspective on Oil) what advantages the Saudis/Iranians/Kuwaiti's even Palestinians could give us if we were neutral.

Not a foothold in the sense of an oil exporter, a foothold in the sense of a staging point for military action in our interests should no other options exist. Can we count on Qatar or Kuwait as much as we can count on the friendship and co-operation of Israel?

4. How many other friends in the middle east we would gain w/out Israel.

If we abandoned Israel now, none. They'd destroy Israel, continue to hate us for ever supporting it, and now sense weakness on our part.

5. The bully question. You are right there. I am not an advocate of appeasement. However, this is not an individual bully. This is the disfavor of an entire region, and religion. We come across as enemies even on a religious level the muslum nations opposing Israel.

The point is their perception is their problem. Arab's have a higher life expectancy and live better in Israel than anywhere else in the world. The Jews have taken a desert wasteland and made it bountiful because they don't waste their efforts hating and blaming others for their own inadequacies.

The problem is not ours, it is theirs. Denying this through any type of appeasement would only exacerbate the problem. They will either adapt or die wallowing in their hatred. We can help them along (Iraq) but they must want to change.

 

[dmp]

We love Israel because, in part, we hate Israel's enemies. Israel simply wants land it owns. As a nation, they want to live in peace.


If your neighbor attacked you because he wanted your land, and you kicked his ass, taking part of HIS land away from him, would YOU want to give it back?

'palestinians' aren't 'a people'. Before Israel there was 'nothing' in that land...migrants...small villages. Now Israel has turned the land prosperous, and bitches want a cut.


yeah...fuck 'em. Israel, as a people and a country, gets shat upon by 'Palestinians' time and again, then berated for defending it's own.

 

[Zhukov]

Missed this one.

Originally posted by Publius
Which values?

Democracy.

Free market capitalism.

Freedom of religion.

Teaching morality by example.

Security through strength.

Liberty.

 

[dmp]

did you see my cool STFU image??

 

[Publius]

Israel simply wants land it owns. As a nation, they want to live in peace.

'palestinians' aren't 'a people'. Before Israel there was 'nothing' in that land...migrants...small villages. Now Israel has turned the land prosperous


berated for defending it's own.

1. Israel, does not own Palestine.

2. Palestinians are a people. They are represented politically in the international community, are they not. I agree, migrants etc. may not be the most favorable people...but they are people. You can't just take their land away b/c you don't think they're worthy, unless you're a zionist jew who believes god gave you the land.

3. Israel does not own Palestine. It's not defending anything. The problem is that Israeli settlements keep spreading further into Palestine....further....as in they are already violating border security (now they're builiding fences) etc.

Anyways, the question was why support Israel...

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by Publius
2. Palestinians are a people. They are represented politically in the international community, are they not. I agree, migrants etc. may not be the most favorable people...but they are people. You can't just take their land away b/c you don't think they're worthy, unless you're a zionist jew who believes god gave you the land.

They are 'people' not 'a' people. No unique language or culture.

A group of people who have in some cases raised a generation of warmongers; living and dying by the sword.

 

[dmp]

Originally posted by Sir Evil
D - really, why bother?

You are correct. This man has no agenda except to create an opportunity to rant about an issue he seeks no answers for.

 

[Publius]

I think my agenda, my hope, was to understand why we support Israel despite the negative effects it has on us throughout the middle east.

In my opinion there isn't a good reason for it; Jewish Zionists and those who feel more loyal to Israel than U.S. find it appropriate b/c they have personal connections. I am an american, I believe in American interests, not Israels.

The Zionist movement is top 10 in the U.S. among interest groups based on amount of financial contribution. That is the reason for our support of Israel; but you wouldn't get that from just anyone. You'd have to dig deep.

Muslims don't like the jews in Israel. They don't like us for supporting Israel. They have gone as far as possible to destroy us and Israel.

The best argument came from zhukov, for a military foothold. The most absurd: it's in the Bible (which it's not).

I didn't want to offend anyone; I'm glad were all here talking about things.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by Publius

The best argument came from zhukov, for a military foothold. The most absurd: it's in the Bible (which it's not).

Sorry, Mentallo, it is.