Israel?

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by Publius
I think you misread the post's question. I asked for justification for U.S. support for Israel. So far I have nothing even resembling a coherent argument to rebut here.
Genocide? Where did that come from. Muslims are genocidal? Put your waders on boys cuz it's gettin' deep in here.

My point, gentlemen is simple. Why upset an entire region for the sake of a country which offers NOTHING.

All I want, is a justification. Simple, easy, right? Not hard.

Yeah genocide. Unless youve been ignoring what the terrorists have been saying about wanting to kill all Israelis and wipe them off the map.

There is plenty of justification, in fact its necessary we support Israel. They are the front lines on the war on terror. If the terrorist succeed in destroying Israel, they will be embolden use terrorist more. Why do you think we have such a major problem with terrorism? Because terrorism works. Palestinians get some volunteer to strape a few bombs on himself walk into a mall and blow up some people who were just out for the day and rather than annilate these scumbags for being evil, the world demands that Israel gives into their demands so that they can have peace. Thus they get what they want through terrorism and they think hey lets do it again. Its a neverending cycle that wont stop till they no longer exist.

Israel is on the land that legally belongs to them. The Palestinians were given the easten land, which is now Jordan, which is essentially a palestinian nation already existing in the middle east. Israel has grown because its neighbors have attacked it. Not because they are some heartless oppressors.

Tell me this though. Why does it matter what dictators think? Why are we listening to their demands? Why should we care why they are upset by us doing whats right?

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by Publius
OK! THANK YOU FOR MAKING AN ARGUMENT!
You are the most intelligent person in here yet. I seriously didn't mean to be indecent with the others, I was hoping for what you provided: coherent thought coupled with an actual response.

Wow, amazing you are probably the only person on the world who seems to think fighting against genocide is not an intellectual coherant argument. To each his own though.

But now that we are discussing the issue:
1. Is sharing our values a good enough reason to trade our stability? Which values?

What are the point of values if you dont value them? If you really care about some an ideal you are willing to sacrifice it all. Freedom is such an ideal. Thats why men and women volunteer to fight to defend freedom and liberate others. Thats why they are willing to sacrifice their lives for something greater. A persons values are meaningless unless they are willing to sacrifice everything for them.

2. Communist expansion? Oh Nixon, the Heiss trial is over. Communists are limited to China, and N. Korea and a few other armpits. Where do you see "expansion", is there a growing empire I missed somewhere?

As Zhukov has said, he said were. Now they are the front line on the war on terror. They face it everyday in ways i hope we never have to.

3. True. But how valuable a foothold. Israels oil exports surely could not match the benefit we would gain by being nuetral. Imagine (strictly from an perspective on Oil) what advantages the Saudis/Iranians/Kuwaiti's even Palestinians could give us if we were neutral.

How valuable was the foothold at Normandy beach in world war 2? It wasnt a big area of land, but it was a beginning to the liberation of Europe. Likewise Israel is a beginning to the liberation of the ME.

Besides, Israel isnt the reason the Saudis/Iranians/etc dont like us. Quite the opposite. we are the reason they hate the Israelis. These governments are dictatorships. There is no freedom. Freedom is an antithesis of everything they stand for. It threatens their power. We are an example that freedom can and does work. if the people in these nations were to come to understand any of this, the ruling class would be out the door so fast its not funny. No, my friend, Israels destruction and our being neutral wouldnt change a single thing. They would still be threatened by us. We would still be their "Great Satan" And being neutral would invite attack because these people see it as a sign of weakness.

4. How many other friends in the middle east we would gain w/out Israel.

None, they would still hate us and feel threatened by us because we exist, even if we did nothing. They would just have one less justification for their wickedness.

5. The bully question. You are right there. I am not an advocate of appeasement. However, this is not an individual bully. This is the disfavor of an entire region, and religion. We come across as enemies even on a religious level the muslum nations opposing Israel.

So what does that mean? If a gang comes up to us and tell us stop being friends with someone or we will hurt you and your friend you going to give in or find a way to fight back? I think the many muslims who live in this nation and are happy that we are liberating their brethren over there would disagree with you. ive talked to quite a few of them.

 

[Avatar4321]

Originally posted by Zhukov
The point is their perception is their problem. Arab's have a higher life expectancy and live better in Israel than anywhere else in the world. The Jews have taken a desert wasteland and made it bountiful because they don't waste their efforts hating and blaming others for their own inadequacies.

The problem is not ours, it is theirs. Denying this through any type of appeasement would only exacerbate the problem. They will either adapt or die wallowing in their hatred. We can help them along (Iraq) but they must want to change.

:clap1: :clap1: :clap1:

 

[ashrob]

Originally posted by -=d=-
if they don't like us because we support Israel's right to exist, fuck em.

[/QUOTE

What about the palestinian right to exist that the israelis took away? Fuck the israeli terrorists

 

[ashrob]

Originally posted by NewGuy
And you do it in 30000 words with no proof or substantive meaning.

Prove Biblical justification to be wrong.

what about the Koranic justification for muslims, we all worship the same god,

At least muslims believe Jesus existed and will come back at the end to gather God's people. What do the jews think of jesus?
fuck the christ betraying jews. They may be God's chosen people, but who lives more according to god's word, regardless what book you read, the muslims or jews.

 

[ashrob]

Originally posted by Publius
Prove Biblical justification to be wrong.

Surely you are so right, it couldn't be wrong. Which bible are you going from...they must all be right. So what about other religious justifications? Should we accept religion as fact? Which ones? Islam? Christianity? Judaism? Nazisim was spawned from the Christian Socialist movement who devoutly followed their Bible; if biblical justification is absolute, we are idiots.

not idiots, just most christians are disrespectful and arrogant towards other religions, this is the problem.

Again, at least the muslims believe jesus will be the one to come gather god's people instead of the jewish way of thinking, he never existed.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ashrob
what about the Koranic justification for muslims, we all worship the same god,

Here we go again.

Thank God you guys keep getting dropped in my lap to build up my patience.

1. Who cares about muslim justification? Their faith is false and is nothing but a guide book for terrorism.

2. We do NOT all worship your god. Jesus was not a PROPHET, He is God in the flesh, and he rose from the dead.

3. You don't really want to start this here. Try the religious section where the carcasses of the other muslims who tried to fly this stuff are scattered about.

At least muslims believe Jesus existed and will come back at the end to gather God's people.

Ok, so you have a NEW twist on your text. Either that or you lie. -Which the koran advocates in dealing with a non-believer.

What do the jews think of jesus?

Who cares? We are talking about you here.

fuck the christ betraying jews. They may be God's chosen people, but who lives more according to god's word, regardless what book you read, the muslims or jews.

Proof of the fact you DID lie in the above text.

You are an idiot and a terrorist.

Of course, I can't seem to meet either one exclusively who claim they are muslim.

 

[ashrob]

I am a christian, thank you. but i am not one of those american christians that believe that only christians are going to heaven. Jews, christians and muslims all share the same god. I am not necessarily saying that islam is right, but i am saying it is no more wrong that jews, but everyone defends the jews although their beliefs are equally wrong. i hate the double standard. I am not so closed minded that i cannot see the forest because of the trees.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ashrob

Originally posted by Publius

Prove Biblical justification to be wrong.

Surely you are so right, it couldn't be wrong.

That was MY quote.

As a matter of humble fact, yes. I AM right.

Which bible are you going from...they must all be right.

What do you care? You will just proceed to get angry and look stupid and run everything in illogical circles with no proof.

So what about other religious justifications? Should we accept religion as fact? Which ones? Islam? Christianity? Judaism?

Told ya.

Nazisim was spawned from the Christian Socialist movement who devoutly followed their Bible; if biblical justification is absolute, we are idiots.

not idiots, just most christians are disrespectful and arrogant towards other religions, this is the problem.

Ummm. Yeah. You justify nazi's as following the Bible. THAT shows your intellect. Then you claim following a God and claiming it to be the only RIGHT one disrespectful and arrogant.

Wrong, but also:

Does that even matter when said faith is TRUE and PROVABLE?

Again, at least the muslims believe jesus will be the one to come gather god's people instead of the jewish way of thinking, he never existed.

Whatever.

Prove your faith in the appropriate section. I will be tying one hand behined my back while you are getting ready.

 

[ashrob]

my information comes from my muslim lebanese fiance and her family. i enjoy good conversations with people from other beliefs and back grounds. these people here only want to insult people with their arrogance that their religion is the only one for all of mankind. do you think all muslims and jews willl go to hell for not believing in jesus christ as the son and savior. you are allowing a small, very voiceful group of islamic radicals to warp your image of the islamic religion.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ashrob
I am a christian, thank you. but i am not one of those american christians that believe that only christians are going to heaven. Jews, christians and muslims all share the same god.

Cool!

Was this the new catholocism/islam blend authorized by vatican 2?

-Or are we seeing another new age twist on the koran.

-Or is this more lies?

Funny. None of these options are even validity for anyone to accept, follow, or justify your belief as fact.

I am not necessarily saying that islam is right,

By process of elimination, you just DID. Is your nickname "Harvey Dent"?

but i am saying it is no more wrong that jews, but everyone defends the jews although their beliefs are equally wrong. i hate the double standard.

Wrong is wrong, and right is right. Truth is truth. How simple can it be?

You hate the standard because you are wrong. -And you promote terrorism. Too bad for you. Should I give you my nation now, or do you want to take as many of the citizens with you as you can in a violent episode instead?

I am not so closed minded that i cannot see the forest because of the trees.

And yet you just proved you are.

 

[ashrob]

by the way, you did quite a few misquotes on me. i have never said anything about the nazis and their religious beliefs. start paying more attention ifyou are going to point fingers and call names.

 

[ashrob]

my whole argument here is that the jews are just as wrong as the muslims, they are equally at fault or more. but the media has the whole world believing that the jews are victims and there are no palestinian victims.

the palestinian people are constantly trying to defend themselfbut are being accused as terrorists. let me ask you what is the difference between the jewish military killing innocent children and old ladies and the bus bombings.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ashrob
my information comes from my muslim lebanese fiance and her family. i enjoy good conversations with people from other beliefs and back grounds. these people here only want to insult people with their arrogance that their religion is the only one for all of mankind.

If you think that is "arrogance", you have just used only 2 kinds of terminology:

Either:

1. mid-eastern islamic terminology to explain Christian faith,

or

2. EXTREME socialism.

Since both are somewhat interchangable, yet you lean heavilly toward the former, I stick with my assessment.

In addition, as I said. PROVABLE FACT, not arrogance. -Which, curiously enough, YOU have displayed from minute one.

do you think all muslims and jews willl go to hell for not believing in jesus christ as the son and savior.

Nice try bearded one. It is "LORD and Savior". You believe He was not God and yet you claim we worship the same god. Maybe I should start adding up your lies about your beliefs.

See? You think you are slick. Again, try this in the other forum. I am calling my wife so we can tie my other hand behined my back.

I know what you believe as well as you do.

you are allowing a small, very voiceful group of islamic radicals to warp your image of the islamic religion.

No. I allow the KORAN to TEACH me your religion. I sharpen my fact of proper understanding with verification from Saudi Arabia, (your capital of faith) and people like you who use the same lies over and over with no proof to the contrary.

Where IS your proof anyway?

 

[ashrob]

what would you have the palestinian people do after their homes are destroyed and land taken away so they cannot grow food. keep in mind that israel makes it illegal for the palestinian people to work. imagine yourself born as a palestinian, with no hope in life. no "legal" course of action for you to take against your oppressors.

desperate situations require desperate actions, hence the suicide bombings. suicide bombing is a last resort but they have no guns, nothing to fight with.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ashrob
by the way, you did quite a few misquotes on me. i have never said anything about the nazis and their religious beliefs. start paying more attention ifyou are going to point fingers and call names.

Learn how to type then. It was YOUR text.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ashrob
my whole argument here is that the jews are just as wrong as the muslims, they are equally at fault or more.

Not when land the Jews occupy is constantly wrestled away from them. -Especially when peace agreements are reached and then muslims attack again. Get your history straight.

but the media has the whole world believing that the jews are victims and there are no palestinian victims.

There are victims on BOTH sides. It is just the simple fact ONE side has been wrong and deceitful ever sinse time began.

the palestinian people are constantly trying to defend themselfbut are being accused as terrorists.

Considering it isn't their nation, I would say that is accurate.

let me ask you what is the difference between the jewish military killing innocent children and old ladies and the bus bombings.

Even your sentence structure looks mid eastern.

When the Israeli killings of innocents are accidents and few and far between on people who shouldn't be there in the first place, and palestinians do it INTENTIONALLY REPEATEDLY EVEN IN TIMES OF PEACE, then the answer is clear.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ashrob
what would you have the palestinian people do after their homes are destroyed and land taken away so they cannot grow food.

Ummm....LEAVE.

keep in mind that israel makes it illegal for the palestinian people to work. imagine yourself born as a palestinian, with no hope in life. no "legal" course of action for you to take against your oppressors.

You idiot.

They have the freedom to LEAVE. They are NOT SUPPOSED TO BE THERE. This isn't like some UFO dropped off a nation of innocents.

desperate situations require desperate actions, hence the suicide bombings. suicide bombing is a last resort but they have no guns, nothing to fight with.

Rightfully so.

Now you understand the situation. They either leave or die.

 

[ashrob]

LOL, what proof of what are you wanting me to prove, i will be happy to

again, please read and comprehend. i believe jesus christ is the son of god and he is the savior of the world.

by the way, how are you not using western american views to explain islamic faith.

what ever happened to freedom of religion and respecting others as you would like to be respected.

you are so typical of an american christian that does not want to understand islam. you see a few images and believe what you are told, blindly. without doing any research against the subject

i am wondering if you get any of your information from any other news source outside the states. or again, are you another one of the americans who believe all that they read and don't have a mind of their own. don't allow the media to do your thinking. you would be amazed at how you get news information sometimes 2 weeks to a month before american media tells the american people about a topic just by reading foreign news.

try to open your mind. the funny thing is i used to feel the same way as you so i understand. you are christian, so you back the jews at all cost. their is a reason they have always been treated like shit throught history.

they are shit

 

[ashrob]

by the way, you fucking ignorant fuck. obviously you don't understand that the palestinian people can't fucking leave. they are under jewish control and can't go to another country without sneaking out.

do you know the word oppression.

you are truly a fucking ignorant idiot. i wish someone with some intellect would argue your arguments because you are making them pretty lame.