Israel the Monster: Mass-murder of Innocents

[toomuchtime_]

You portray pre-1967 Israel as if the country were as democratic as Switzerland as if the country weren’t already a jewish version of South Africa complete with ethnic enclaves from which the undesirable ethnic group were not allowed to leave.

More evidence of the dehumanizing paradigm through which you see the Palestinian people.

What you fail to notice is that citizenship is one of the tools racial dictatorships have to implement their racist policies, toomuchtime.

South Africa under Apartheid also considered itself a democratic state since most of its black population were “foreign workers” living in South Africa with a visa.

They were citizens of the so called Black Republics or Bantustans, complete with passports, police, checkpoints etc…

The manipulation of the legal status of the discriminated ethnic group is one of the ways used by ethnocratic states to maintain the privileged position of the dominant ethnic group.

In simple English:

As long as the Israeli government refuses to give citizenship to millions of Palestinians presently living in refugee camps throughout the Middle East, Israel will still be a jewish racial dictatorship no matter how many rights are granted to its token Palestinian population.

Israel is a jewish ethnocratic state. This is a fact.

Israel should be dismantled and replaced by a democratic state. This is an opinion.

I happen to agree with it because I oppose any form of ethnic supremacism but I will never accuse anyone who does not hold the same opinion of being factually wrong.

Let’s limit ourselves to debating opinions not facts, so we do not get demoralized.

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The Arabs living within the pre 1967 borders have all the freedoms, rights and protections Jewish citizens have and are not retricted to any enclaves as you claim. If these are the Arabs you are talking about, you are simply mistaken. If you are referring to the way the Israeli government is treating the Arabs who do not live within the pre 1967 borders, than your reference to pre 1967 Israel and your comments about citizenship being a tool of racial dictatorship and much of the rest of your post makes no sense to me at all, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

 

[toomuchtime_]

We’ve already been through that, toomuchtime. This is getting a bit tiring.

Ahmed’s parents arrived in Western Palestine in 1947

Moche’s parents arrived in Western Palestine in the same year.

These four individuals had virtually no historical connection with Western Palestine.

Ahmed and Mosche, on the other hand, having lived their entire lives in Palestine, think about themselves as Palestinians, not as an Egyptian and a Russian Jew, AND RIGHTFULLY SO.

Any state that denies their right to live in any part of their homeland is by definition a racial dictatorship.

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Again, your postis unresponsive. As long as you insist that the fact that an Arab thinks of the land of Israel as his homeland even if he has had little or no connection with it overrides all other considerations, I guess we'll just have to disagree.

 

[José]

Originally posted by DiveCon
"token rights"?????
wow, that is just beyond stupid
they have Arab members of the Knesset

Token Palestinians, not token rights.

Ya don’t have to agree with what I say but at least quote me correctly : )

 

[José]

Originally posted by Godboy
Tell me, why on earth would Israel let in the people who have been doing rocket and suicide attacks against them for decades? Give me one good reason why anyone would do that? Its not as if its a secret that the Palestinians want to see Israel destroyed, so i dont understand why anyone would be confused about Israels position, unless of course you just hate jews....

Originally posted by Godboy
...and by the way, if i was to demand citizenship from Israel, im guessing i would get the same response the Palestinians get. You dont get to demand citizenship, it is rewarded to people Israel finds deserving of it. I think right now, the Palestinians are getting what they deserve, which sure as hell isnt citizenship.

At the risk of repeating myself, this is the good, old “WHO DOES WHAT FIRST” dilemma I mentioned before.

This dilemma is at the heart of the perpetuation of the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.

I know you and DiveCon passionately believe that the Palestinian people should end their armed struggle FIRST and then Israel would negotiate. This is pretty clear by your posts.

But the Palestinian people also passionately believe that Israel must at least signal it is willing to negotiate their right to live in Western Palestine FIRST and then they will end their armed struggle.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
The Arabs living within the pre 1967 borders have all the freedoms, rights and protections Jewish citizens have and are not retricted to any enclaves as you claim. If these are the Arabs you are talking about, you are simply mistaken. If you are referring to the way the Israeli government is treating the Arabs who do not live within the pre 1967 borders, than your reference to pre 1967 Israel and your comments about citizenship being a tool of racial dictatorship and much of the rest of your post makes no sense to me at all, so I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

For someone who claims not to understand my posts you seem to have a pretty good idea which Palestinians I’m talking about:

If by Western Palestine, you mean Israel, then there are no conditions under which the Palestinians will ever be allowed to live there, so if that's what Hamas is after then they are putting the Palestinian people through a lot of suffering for nothing.

Your words, not even mine.

Democratic states do not prevent any ethnic group from moving freely and settle anywhere they want in their own homeland, racial dictatorships do.

The reality of Israel as a jewish racial dictatorship is so overt, so blatant that even Israeli supporters like toomuchtime are victims of an occasional slip of the tongue from time to time.

 

[José]

Originally posted by toomuchtime
Again, your postis unresponsive. As long as you insist that the fact that an Arab thinks of the land of Israel as his homeland even if he has had little or no connection with it overrides all other considerations, I guess we'll just have to disagree.

If I believed the right of the Palestinian people to live in their homeland overrides the need to guarantee the safety of the jewish people I would have proposed the immediate dismantlement of Israel a few pages back.

But what I said, or rather, what I have been saying here for years, is that the democratization of Palestine must be preceded by years, if not decades of a process of healing and reconciliation between the two peoples and that the nature of the conflict demands the establishment of an international protectorate to guarantee the security of both peoples and that would last for as long as the jewish and arab communities deemed necessary among many other measures.

Ironically it’s you who believe that the safety of the jewish people justifies the imposition of a jewish supremacist state on the Palestinian people that shoots them whenever they try to exercise their right to move freely and settle anywhere they want in their homeland.

Safeguarding the security of the jewish population of Palestine is a noble endeavor to which I subscribe passionately but the perpetuation of a jewish supremacist state is not the right, moral way to go about it, toomuchtime.

You don’t keep the natives of the land herded into ethnic enclaves because they may represent a potential demographic threat to the other ethnicities. This is the supremacist way of protecting a persecuted ethnicity.

America doesn’t do this to its native/latino population, Spain doesn’t do this to Basques and all the other non-spanish ethnicities, South Africa doesn’t do this to Zulus and Xhosas anymore.

If two ethnic groups are engaged in a seemingly intractable conflict, the serious political thinker devise new political configurations, never based on ethnic supremacism, to protect both communities.

The fact that so many people in America supports in Palestine the same kind of supremacist state they dismantled in their country 40 years ago speaks volumes about the level of dehumanization of the Palestinian people in the mind of the average American citizen.

Correction: much more similar to South Africa than american segregation, but the three states still qualifies/qualified as fully fledged ethnocracies.

 

[mash107]

If I believed the right of the Palestinian people to live in their homeland overrides the need to guarantee the safety of the jewish people I would have proposed the immediate dismantlement of Israel a few pages back.

The reality is both needs to happen. Jewish people lives can not be threatened with being pushed to the sea; nor can Arabs right to their property, that they were disposed of, can be ignored, without proper compensation. There needs to be peaceful coexistence, as there were for hundreds of years prior to the invention of the ideology of Zionism/pan-Arabism. That or this civil war can continue for ages until one of the fanatics from either sides decides to explode a nuke.