Israel the Monster: Mass-murder of Innocents

[Modbert]

oh man, so much wrong(and off topic too)

david is a very SMALL minority, and he ISNT in Israel
and yes, Israel has never attacked unprovoked
you may not agree that the provocation warranted the level of the attack, but that is not the point
it is utter stupidity to think you will go in without a full commitment to finish the job
we did that in Vietnam

Really, you're a mind reader for everybody?

And yes, I do realize David is located in New York.

Although he is suppose to be moving to Israel to go fight for the Israeli army soon since his loyality is to Israel first. Plus, he did say he was quite willing to go sacrifice himself for the children of Israel.

You're making quite the assumption that a country has never attacked unprovoked. Even the U.S has at some point.

But to prove you wrong as I have before:

USS Liberty Memorial

On June 8, 1967, US Navy intelligence ship USS Liberty was suddenly and brutally attacked on the high seas in international waters by the air and naval forces of Israel. The Israeli forces attacked with full knowledge that this was an American ship and lied about it. Survivors have been forbidden for 40 years to tell their story under oath to the American public. The USS Liberty Memorial web site tells their story and is dedicated to the memory of the 34 brave men who died.

And if this was a batshit insane theory, I wouldn't believe it.

'The USS Liberty': America's Most Shameful Secret

Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told Washington its forces had committed a 'tragic error.' Later, Israel claimed it had mistaken 'Liberty' for an ancient Egyptian horse transport. US Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Admiral Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate and designed to sink 'Liberty.' So did three CIA reports; one asserted Israel's Defense Minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had personally ordered the attack.

In contrast to American outrage over North Korea's assault on the intelligence ship 'Pueblo,' Iraq's mistaken missile strike on the USS 'Stark,' last fall's bombing of the USS 'Cole' in Aden, and the recent US-China air incident, the savaging of 'Liberty' was quickly hushed up by President Lyndon Johnson and Defense Secretary Robert McNamara.

The White House and Congress immediately accepted Israel's explanation and let the matter drop. Israel later paid a token reparation of US $6 million. There were reports two Israeli pilots who had refused to attack 'Liberty' were jailed for 18 years.

$6 million of fucking blood money.

Oh really? The Bush Administration must be high on the idiot list then.

The U.S went into Iraq not fully committed. Many troops did not have the body armor protection that they rightly deserved and troop level numbers were highly below what U.S War Games that were conducted in the late 90's on occupation of Iraq and several generals told to Bush. Bush ignored them and steamrolled right on ahead. The U.S has never had to this day the correct troop level to do the job as best they can in Iraq.

Besides, the reason we lost in Vietnam wasn't commitment. It was due to American people finally having enough of the losses of soldiers here at home where battling seemed to change nothing. In Vietnam, we were highly superior when it came to killing the NVA and VC as the numbers of deaths show. Soldiers fought and won on a hill but fought again on the same hill three days later. People thought because of things like that no progress was made.

Also, you tend to forget another point. We had no business being in Vietnam. We were simply there because we were trying to fight Communism spreading throughout the world. The people we were fighting in Vietnam were fighting for their land, knew the land better, and were fighting for their lives. We were fighting to try and stop a idea which is simply impossible. You cannot kill a idea.

Which is why we also fought to a stalemate in North Korea. Also, the Soviets helped both armies fight us and there is evidence of such.

Which is why I would hate to see our soldiers die in vain in places we have no business being. This coming from a grandson of a man who served his country proudly in both World War II and North Korea. Also coming from the nephew of a man who served his country in Vietnam.

So do not sit there and tell me what I do and do not know.

 

[DiveCon]

typical

 

[Modbert]

typical

That's your response when I'm right. So I'll be pleased.

Feel free to respond when you have an actual response instead of what you consider a smartass answer.

Oh, and feel free to ignore facts and logic. You're quite good at it if you think I'm BSing.

 

[DiveCon]

That's your response when I'm right. So I'll be pleased.

Feel free to respond when you have an actual response instead of what you consider a smartass answer.

Oh, and feel free to ignore facts and logic. You're quite good at it if you think I'm BSing.

no, you arent right'
its just your typical bullshit

there was no logic there asshole
in fact, you used the usual antisemite bullshit
so you can fuck off, again

 

[Modbert]

no, you arent right'
its just your typical bullshit

there was no logic there asshole
in fact, you used the usual antisemite bullshit
so you can fuck off, again

Fuck you Dive, I'm not antisemite simply because I decide not to defend Israel at every single twist and turn like your ignorant ass.

From the first link:

Anti-Semitism and the Anti-American Apologists

The USS Liberty Memorial web site abhors the racist and extreme positions taken by antiSemitic, Holocaust denial, conspiracy theorist and other such groups which often seek to identify with us and to usurp our story as their own. We have no connection with and do not support or encourage support from any of these groups including National Alliance, National Vanguard, The New Order, National Socialists, The French Connection, Liberty Lobby, American Free Press, Republic Broadcasting, AFP's Liberty Radio Hour, or other such groups. We wish harm to no one and encourage social justice and equality for everyone; we seek only accountability for the criminal acts perpetrated against us and can do that without help from hate-mongers.

On the Israeli side, the group of pro-Israel, anti-American critics of our story, while small, persists in launching loud, vicious ad hominem attacks on anyone who attempts to discuss the deliberateness of the attack. These anti-American apologists refuse to discuss the facts of the case. Instead, they rely on propaganda and charge anyone who questions the Israeli position with being antiSemitic.

For detailed and authoritative accounts of the power and influence of the pro-Israel lobby, please see The Israel Lobby and US Foreign Policy by Mearsheimer and Walt and The Pro-Israel Lobby by Edward Herman.

Hey look fucktard, describes you in a nutshell.

Now do the human race a favor "moron" and go get yourself sterilized.

It's not like you do anything else more constructive with your time on here. All you do is insult people and saying people are wrong/racists when you offer no evidence.

 

[DiveCon]

Fuck you Dive, I'm not antisemite simply because I decide not to defend Israel at every single twist and turn like your ignorant ass.

From the first link:



Hey look fucktard, describes you in a nutshell.

Now do the human race a favor "moron" and go get yourself sterilized.

It's not like you do anything else more constructive with your time on here. All you do is insult people and saying people are wrong/racists when you offer no evidence.

you dont want to be put in that group
dont fall back on their bullshit

and being called a "fucktard" by an asshole like you doesnt phase me one iota
just keep showing your true colors bobby

 

[mash107]

what you are missing, robert, is that Israel has given up land already
and they are willing to give more, for PEACE
but no matter what they do, it wont matter if Hamas still has the mentality of "we'll drive the jews into the sea"
Israel was willing to have the 2 state solution back in 48, they didnt attack the arabs, they were attacked
and it has been the same since

Given that the desert between Aqaba and Jerusalem made up the bulk of that land trade, and it was still split 57% for Jews and 43% for Arabs, I hardly count that as fair. The Jewish inhabitants had just 7% of the land in 1947. I would've shot that land partition down like a raise for congressmen! When Israel declared independence, the Arabs of course retaliated, just as the any people who were deprived of property would. Read Murray Rothbard's, one the key people in the Austro-libertarian movement, editorial on how Israel infringed upon the Arabs during it's creation:

http://www.mises.org/journals/lar/pdfs/3_3/3_3_4.pdf (written in 1969)

You can -not- be in support of free people, markets, and property rights, i.e. a libertarian, without supporting the Palestinians. Rothbard is Jewish, too, but he, like all true libertarians, categorically reject all collectivist ideologies. Be that as it may, Israel does exist, and I do not wish to see any Israeli "driven to the sea"-- just the idea that it, or any State, should have a religious identity. There, also, must be just compensation, if their property is not returnable, for all 750,000 civilians that were exiled in 1948 (now the population has swelled up to 2 million).

The economic and political structure Hamas has set up is absolutely reprehensible, as well. They thrive because they have kept the Gazans poor, through the socialist economy they have set up, and they blame their failures to govern on the Israelis. The Gazans are the least free people in the world, with both Israel and Hamas constantly infringing on their rights. All the meanwhile, Hamas attempts to provoke the regional subsidized military power making life harder for the Gazans, and like a mindless bear, Israel retaliates.

 

[DiveCon]

Given that the desert between Aqaba and Jerusalem made up the bulk of that land trade, and it was still split 57% for Jews and 43% for Arabs, I hardly count that as fair. The Jewish inhabitants had just 7% of the land in 1947. I would've shot that land partition down like a raise for congressmen! When Israel declared independence, the Arabs of course retaliated, just as the any people who were deprived of property would. Read Murray Rothbard's, one the key people in the Austro-libertarian movement, editorial on how Israel infringed upon the Arabs during it's creation:

http://www.mises.org/journals/lar/pdfs/3_3/3_3_4.pdf (written in 1969)

You can -not- be in support of free people, markets, and property rights, i.e. a libertarian, without supporting the Palestinians. Rothbard is Jewish, too, but he, like all true libertarians, categorically reject all collectivist ideologies. Be that as it may, Israel does exist, and I do not wish to see any Israeli "driven to the sea"-- just the idea that it, or any State, should have a religious identity. There, also, must be just compensation, if their property is not returnable, for all 750,000 civilians that were exiled in 1948 (now the population has swelled up to 2 million).

The economic and political structure Hamas has set up is absolutely reprehensible, as well. They thrive because they have kept the Gazans poor, through the socialist economy they have set up, and they blame their failures to govern on the Israelis. The Gazans are the least free people in the world, with both Israel and Hamas constantly infringing on their rights. All the meanwhile, Hamas attempts to provoke the regional subsidized military power making life harder for the Gazans, and like a mindless bear, Israel retaliates.

are you forgetting about the 73% that was already given to the arabs?
now called Jordan?
sorry, that dog dont hunt

 

[Modbert]

you dont want to be put in that group
dont fall back on their bullshit

and being called a "fucktard" by an asshole like you doesnt phase me one iota
just keep showing your true colors bobby

I'm not falling back on their bullshit.

Calling Israel wrong does not mean I hate jews you idiot.

But that is exactly what people like you and DavidS think.

This is why in the past I never got involved in the Israeli/Pali arguments. Too many fucktards with too much emotion and not even logic.

God forbid somebody actually be able to state a damn fact without being called a fucking antisemite.

I already proved the site wasn't at all racist, but your mind is too clouded with someone yelling "JEW HATER! JEW HATER! JEW HATER!"

I have several Jewish friends, so I find this even more offensive.

So why don't you do everyone a favor and go fuck yourself until you have something to add to the conversation instead of calling every argument that dears saying something bad about "poor little Israel" a fucking antisemite.

If your posts had a smell, they'd smell like bullshit.

Now like Judy Garland in The Wizard of Oz, instead of clicking your three heels three times and ask to go home; click your heels three times and simply go fuck yourself.

And you might be able to tell, yeah I'm a little angry for once. I've never seen so much stupidity from one person on this board or even in my life except from what I seen in some of David's posts on this part of the forum lately.

 

[DiveCon]

I'm not falling back on their bullshit.

Calling Israel wrong does not mean I hate jews you idiot.

But that is exactly what people like you and DavidS think.

This is why in the past I never got involved in the Israeli/Pali arguments. Too many fucktards with too much emotion and not even logic.

God forbid somebody actually be able to state a damn fact without being called a fucking antisemite.

I already proved the site wasn't at all racist, but your mind is too clouded with someone yelling "JEW HATER! JEW HATER! JEW HATER!"

I have several Jewish friends, so I find this even more offensive.

So why don't you do everyone a favor and go fuck yourself until you have something to add to the conversation instead of calling every argument that dears saying something bad about "poor little Israel" a fucking antisemite.

If your posts had a smell, they'd smell like bullshit.

Now like Judy Garland in The Wizard of Oz, instead of clicking your three heels three times and ask to go home; click your heels three times and simply go fuck yourself.

And you might be able to tell, yeah I'm a little angry for once. I've never seen so much stupidity from one person on this board or even in my life except from what I seen in some of David's posts on this part of the forum lately.

you posted the USS LIberty incident as proof they attacked unprovooked??????


that is FUCKED UP

do you even know the conditions surrounding the incident?


btw, bobby, i NEVER called you an antisemite, i just said you used one of their tactics
learn the fucking difference and fuck off

 

[mash107]

are you forgetting about the 73% that was already given to the arabs?
now called Jordan?
sorry, that dog dont hunt

Palestinians should be free to self-determine where they want to live. A lot of Jordanians, in the 19th century, had emigrated to Palestine to enjoy better living conditions, better climates, more jobs, etc, until an imperialist force came and forced them out a century later.

Also, to echo Robert's sentiments, anti-semitism is a charge the weak use when they have no moral argument. Murray Rothbard is fully Jewish and fully opposed to the collectivist thinking behind pro-Israel supporters.

 

[DiveCon]

Palestinians should be free to self-determine where they want to live. A lot of Jordanians, in the 19th century, had emigrated to Palestine to enjoy better living conditions, better climates, more jobs, etc, until an imperialist force came and forced them out a century later.

Also, to echo Robert's sentiments, anti-semitism is a charge the weak use when they have no moral argument. Murray Rothbard is fully Jewish and fully opposed to the collectivist thinking behind pro-Israel supporters.

then if it bothers you so much to be called one, why do you use the same arguments?


btw, i NEVER called robert an antisemite

 

[jillian]

Palestinians should be free to self-determine where they want to live. A lot of Jordanians, in the 19th century, had emigrated to Palestine to enjoy better living conditions, better climates, more jobs, etc, until an imperialist force came and forced them out a century later.

Also, to echo Robert's sentiments, anti-semitism is a charge the weak use when they have no moral argument. Murray Rothbard is fully Jewish and fully opposed to the collectivist thinking behind pro-Israel supporters.

people can't always determine where they live, sometimes people move because of political situations or whatever.

they have no more right to live in Israel than I do to live in Iran.

As for self-determination. They can have that any time they want. All they have to do is stop blowing up stuff. It's really a simple equation.

 

[Annie]

people can't always determine where they live, sometimes people move because of political situations or whatever.

they have no more right to live in Israel than I do to live in Iran.

As for self-determination. They can have that any time they want. All they have to do is stop blowing up stuff. It's really a simple equation.

Happy New Year, Jillian. This is related to my thread on 'An Observation' which many of the 'peaceful folk' failed to get.

*Let's make it a 'given' that both sides have been wronged, easy enough to do.
*We could list a bunch of 'wrongs': Munich Olympics, 3 or 4 wars started by
whom? Checkpoints, suicide bombings, etc., etc.

Now the question is, how to stop the bombings, from both directions? (Note, not saying 'who' started it?

*Israel has said they would stop, if the missile firing stops. Hamas hasn't. If Hamas cared about the killing going on, for any way you look at it Israel is killing many more than Hamas can, they would stop. Then if Israel didn't, the world would certainly come at Israel, including the US. (Actually from my point of view, this would be the worst thing that could happen, as I don't think Hamas would take the following step):

*Hamas should be working the government, instead of financing terror, then demand that checkpoints and such go. Whether or not they would get rid of Israel or not, who knows? I can envision the UN making one state, not Israel, if war was not going on all the time.

 

[jillian]

Happy New Year, Jillian. This is related to my thread on 'An Observation' which many of the 'peaceful folk' failed to get.

*Let's make it a 'given' that both sides have been wronged, easy enough to do.
*We could list a bunch of 'wrongs': Munich Olympics, 3 or 4 wars started by
whom? Checkpoints, suicide bombings, etc., etc.

Now the question is, how to stop the bombings, from both directions? (Note, not saying 'who' started it?

*Israel has said they would stop, if the missile firing stops. Hamas hasn't. If Hamas cared about the killing going on, for any way you look at it Israel is killing many more than Hamas can, they would stop. Then if Israel didn't, the world would certainly come at Israel, including the US. (Actually from my point of view, this would be the worst thing that could happen, as I don't think Hamas would take the following step):

*Hamas should be working the government, instead of financing terror, then demand that checkpoints and such go. Whether or not they would get rid of Israel or not, who knows? I can envision the UN making one state, not Israel, if war was not going on all the time.

Both sides were wronged... but society wrongs a lot of people. They move on. They don't spend 60 years trying to blow people up all the while refusing to do anything to better their own circumstances.

That said, I agree... it doesn't matter how it started. What matters is today's reality. 1) Israel's existence is no less legitimate than the United Arab Emirates, which was also ostensibly "created" by the international community; 2) Israel will never, under any set of circumstances allow itself to be destroyed, whether by war or by UN action. It simply won't happen. Nor should it. And anyone who thinks that any country would lay down and die for a bunch of terrorists is brain dead; 3) Hamas cannot spend their time working on the government and not doing what their charter demands -- which is engage in jihad...that is its sole purpose. There is nothing that will change that purpose, which is set forth in Hamas' charter, short of destroying Hamas.

So, the election of Hamas as a sort of pseudo government was a major miscalculation and almost mitigates against any type of peace. And even assuming Israel made peace with Hamas (unlikely), what happens to the PA? What would they demand.

The whole situation is as FUBAR as it gets... but it's not FUBAR because of Israel.

Oh... and happy new year to you, too!

 

[Annie]

Both sides were wronged... but society wrongs a lot of people. They move on. They don't spend 60 years trying to blow people up all the while refusing to do anything to better their own circumstances.

That said, I agree... it doesn't matter how it started. What matters is today's reality. 1) Israel's existence is no less legitimate than the United Arab Emirates, which was also ostensibly "created" by the international community; 2) Israel will never, under any set of circumstances allow itself to be destroyed, whether by war or by UN action. It simply won't happen. Nor should it. And anyone who thinks that any country would lay down and die for a bunch of terrorists is brain dead; 3) Hamas cannot spend their time working on the government and not doing what their charter demands -- which is engage in jihad...that is its sole purpose. There is nothing that will change that purpose, which is set forth in Hamas' charter, short of destroying Hamas.

So, the election of Hamas as a sort of pseudo government was a major miscalculation and almost mitigates against any type of peace. And even assuming Israel made peace with Hamas (unlikely), what happens to the PA? What would they demand.

The whole situation is as FUBAR as it gets... but it's not FUBAR because of Israel.

Oh... and happy new year to you, too!

I agree with all, which as I said, why I don't think Hamas would ever go to that last step.

 

[editec]

Both sides were wronged... but society wrongs a lot of people. They move on. They don't spend 60 years trying to blow people up all the while refusing to do anything to better their own circumstances.

But they do, Jillian. PEOPLE with their backs to the wall often do exactly that. they stay because they have no where to go and they fight back.

That said, I agree... it doesn't matter how it started. What matters is today's reality. 1) Israel's existence is no less legitimate than the United Arab Emirates, which was also ostensibly "created" by the international community; 2) Israel will never, under any set of circumstances allow itself to be destroyed, whether by war or by UN action. It simply won't happen. Nor should it. And anyone who thinks that any country would lay down and die for a bunch of terrorists is brain dead; 3) Hamas cannot spend their time working on the government and not doing what their charter demands -- which is engage in jihad...that is its sole purpose. There is nothing that will change that purpose, which is set forth in Hamas' charter, short of destroying Hamas.

I agree with all the above.

I still think Israel has a terrible problem because they did not count on those Arabs refusing to give up.

So, the election of Hamas as a sort of pseudo government was a major miscalculation and almost mitigates against any type of peace. And even assuming Israel made peace with Hamas (unlikely), what happens to the PA? What would they demand.

I do not doubt for a moment that if Isreal disappeared, that the Palestinians would immediately begin fighting amongst themsevles over which group of Palestinians would control that land.

The whole situation is as FUBAR as it gets... but it's not FUBAR because of Israel.

Well, that is true only if you want to forget that Isreal didn't exist until 1948 and was basically a colony of unwanted (by the locals) European interlopers.

But I agree with you that recently the FUBAR reality isn't entirely the Isreali's fault.

The Isrealis are dealing with the ANGER of a people who see their situation as having been victimized, and worse, a people who have no hope of bettering their own situation as long as Isrealis control Israel.

Short of genocide of the Palestinians , or capitualtion on the part of the Isrealis (which would likely end up genocide of the Isreali Jews) I see no solution to this problem UNTIL the Palestinian people have hope to a better life through peace.

They do not believe that is true.

They believe if they sit passive by, that Isreal will build more settlements on their land, strarve them economically, and keep them penned in those Butustans that were carved out of the original place that used to be called Palestine.

People without hope can be very stubborn, ya know.

 

[DavidS]

Palestinians should be free to self-determine where they want to live. A lot of Jordanians, in the 19th century, had emigrated to Palestine to enjoy better living conditions, better climates, more jobs, etc, until an imperialist force came and forced them out a century later.

I'm not even sure where to begin with this, but I'll start here:

JORDAN DIDNT EXIST UNTIL THE 20TH CENTURY.

 

[jillian]

I'm not even sure where to begin with this, but I'll start here:

JORDAN DIDNT EXIST UNTIL THE 20TH CENTURY.

Here's a little info for the uniformed who think the Pals belong in Israel or that it's something other than anti-semitism which makes them rage against Israel.

Modern Jordan

King Abdullah I (ruled: 1921-1951).
King Hussein (ruled: 1952-1999)With the break-up of the Ottoman Empire at the end of World War I, the League of Nations and the occupying powers chose to redraw the borders of Southwest Asia. The ensuing decisions, most notably the Sykes–Picot Agreement gave birth to the French Mandate of Syria and British Mandate of Palestine. More than 70% of the British Mandate of Palestine was east of the Jordan river and was known as "Transjordan".

Abdullah I continued to rule until a Palestinian Arab assassinated him in 1951 as he was departing from the al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem. At first he ruled "Transjordan", under British supervision until after World War II. In 1946, the British requested that the United Nations approve an end to British Mandate rule in Transjordan. Following this approval, the Jordanian Parliament proclaimed King Abdullah as the first ruler of the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan.

In 1950, Jordan annexed the area now called the West Bank (also referred to as Judea and Samaria), which had been under its control since the armistice that followed the 1948 Arab-Israeli war.

In 1965, there was an exchange of land between Saudi Arabia and Jordan. Jordan gave up a relatively large area of inland desert in return for a small piece of sea-shore near Aqaba.

Jordan signed a military pact with Egypt in May 1967, and together in June 1967 waged the Six Day War against Israel along with Syria, Egypt and Iraq, launching attacks against west Jerusalem. During the war, Jordan lost the West Bank (originally known as Judea and Samaria) and east Jerusalem to Israel. In 1988, Jordan renounced all claims to the West Bank/Judea & Samaria, but retained an administrative role pending a final settlement, and its 1994 treaty with Israel allowed for a continuing Jordanian role in Muslim and Christian holy places in Jerusalem.

The period following the 1967 war saw an upsurge in the activity and numbers of Arab Palestinian paramilitary elements (fedayeen) within the state of Jordan. These distinct, armed militias were becoming a "state within a state", threatening Jordan's rule of law. King Hussein's armed forces targeted the fedayeen, and open fighting erupted in June 1970. The battle in which Palestinian fighters from various Palestine Liberation Organization (PLO) groups were expelled from Jordan is commonly known as Black September.

Jordan - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The jordanians tossed the pals because they wanted to take over Jordan. That's their pattern.... which makes them impossible to have within your country.

 

[jillian]

But they do, Jillian. PEOPLE with their backs to the wall often do exactly that. they stay because they have no where to go and they fight back.




I agree with all the above.

I still think Israel has a terrible problem because they did not count on those Arabs refusing to give up.



I do not doubt for a moment that if Isreal disappeared, that the Palestinians would immediately begin fighting amongst themsevles over which group of Palestinians would control that land.



Well, that is true only if you want to forget that Isreal didn't exist until 1948 and was basically a colony of unwanted (by the locals) European interlopers.

But I agree with you that recently the FUBAR reality isn't entirely the Isreali's fault.

The Isrealis are dealing with the ANGER of a people who see their situation as having been victimized, and worse, a people who have no hope of bettering their own situation as long as Isrealis control Israel.

Short of genocide of the Palestinians , or capitualtion on the part of the Isrealis (which would likely end up genocide of the Isreali Jews) I see no solution to this problem UNTIL the Palestinian people have hope to a better life through peace.

They do not believe that is true.

They believe if they sit passive by, that Isreal will build more settlements on their land, strarve them economically, and keep them penned in those Butustans that were carved out of the original place that used to be called Palestine.

People without hope can be very stubborn, ya know.

I agree with you about people with their backs to the walls... which is why Israel has no choice but to protect its people. You are getting it backwards, though. No one thought ISRAEL would survive. That is why the british divided the mandate, giving all of the high ground, defensible positions and fortresses to the arabs. They figured the Arabs would finish off the Jews and they'd be absolved of guilt for what they allowed to happen in Europe.

And if you believe, in your wildest imagination, that you can "win the hearts and minds" of terrorists, you're mistaken. Look at the charter of Hamas... it has only one goal -- to destroy Israel.

If you scratch a palestinian, after talking about only wanting peace, they will tell you that Israel has no right to exist "because it is an illegitimate country". They do not even believe Israel should have riparian rights. And this is not simply Hamasnik terrorst type talk. It is what "mainstream" PA types say. And, ultimately, for all the talk about what Israel should do for the palestinians, Israel agreed to almost everything they asked. Arafat walked away from the table.

so now when do I get my land in Belarus...same arguments as you're making, except my people didn't blow anyone up after the pogroms, they moved. Like EVERY OTHER IMMIGRANT GROUP THAT LOOKED FOR A BETTER WORLD. That's life.

And since you're smarter than the average bear, if a rabid terrorist group of Mexican nationals took over Mexico's government and claimed Texas and California were their "rightful" lands and started lobbing missiles into Cali, would you be saying "awwwwwwwwww.... give them California and Texas, their land was taken from them"?