Israel’s right or not to exist – The facts and truth

[Lipush]

What about the wrongs and war crimes of the Palestinians, Sherri?

 

[P F Tinmore]

Another lie from the Pro Palestinian Arabs have attacked Jews for centuries ,became slightly more civilized and rose after WW1 with the killing of Jews "Palestine" as a Country does not exist and never will

The State of Palestine exists, now

Good point. The UN does not create states. It can only recognize existing states

When did Palestine start to exist?

 

[RoccoR]

Meathead, SherriMunnerlyn, et al,

This is exactly why both sides have to come to some accommodation.

Israeli American Jewish Terrorist Baruch Goldstein carried out a massacre killing 30 or 40 Muslims praying in a mosque. I think that was in 1994. Jewish terrorism in Hebron certainly does have a long history!

Are you sure you want to open that can of worms. If anybody cared to go tit for tat, you wouldn't be doing your cause any favors.

(COMMENT)

This side attacks, that side retaliates, the other side attacks again, and the cycle of strike-counterstrike continue; over and over again. To what end?

This side has crazy terrorist, that side has maniacs and criminals. The bickering and name calling, the endless ethnic rivalry, and the struggle that only brings death and destruction to both sides. I'm sure this is what the People of Palestine and Israel want.

· Majorities among Israelis (73%) and Palestinians (71%) view the chances for the establishment of an independent Palestinian state next to Israel in the next five years as low or non-existent.

· A majority of 61% Israelis and 52% of Palestinians supports a two-state solution, while 36% of Israelis and 46% of Palestinians oppose it. However 50% of Israelis and 57% of Palestinians think that the two-state solution is bound to fail because of the settlements; 47% of Israelis and 37% of Palestinians think the two-state solution is still relevant. At the same time, majorities among Israelis (65%) and among Palestinians (68%) oppose the one state solution in which Arabs and Jews enjoy equality; 31% of Israelis and 30% of Palestinians support this solution.

· As we do periodically in our joint polls, we asked Israelis and Palestinians about their readiness for a mutual recognition of identity as part of a permanent status agreement and after all issues in the conflict are resolved and a Palestinian State is established. Our current poll shows that 62% of the Israeli public supports such a mutual recognition and 30% oppose it. Among Palestinians, 44% support and 54% oppose this step. In June 2012, 53% of the Israelis supported and 43% opposed this mutual recognition of identity; among Palestinians, 43% supported and 55% opposed this step.
SOURCE: PSR Poll No. 45 - Joint Palestinian - Israeli press release

There is still hope. Both sides are gradually coming around. But both sides have a long way to come.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Hossfly]

Do you have any evidence to back up any rejection of the 1922 borders of Palestine?

Do you have any evidence to suggest those " borders" were considered after the U.N. was established and rejected by Israel? Those " borders" which did include a possible Jewish State were discussed by League of Nations and of Course rejected .

Only an insane old fool would actually discuss Israel giving up the 67 and 48 Borders. Not even Hamas is asking for that ( Not yet anyway) Stop embarrasing yourself

Do you have any proof that Israel had any borders in 1948 or 1967?

Then why does everyone refer to them as '48 or '67 borders? You better get on the ball and straighten out that gaggle of complete idiots who differ from Tinmore.

 

[P F Tinmore]

Do you have any evidence to suggest those " borders" were considered after the U.N. was established and rejected by Israel? Those " borders" which did include a possible Jewish State were discussed by League of Nations and of Course rejected .

Only an insane old fool would actually discuss Israel giving up the 67 and 48 Borders. Not even Hamas is asking for that ( Not yet anyway) Stop embarrasing yourself

Do you have any proof that Israel had any borders in 1948 or 1967?

Then why does everyone refer to them as '48 or '67 borders? You better get on the ball and straighten out that gaggle of complete idiots who differ from Tinmore.

The only 1948 borders I know about are Palestinian. Nobody has been able to post anything different.

'67 borders is just another term for 1949 armistice lines and is also known as the green line. Those lines are specifically not to be political or territorial borders. They merely define areas of occupation.

I don't know who first coined the term.

 

[irosie91]

tinnie clings to this "border" thing like a caged monkey clings to a blob of shit

 

[P F Tinmore]

tinnie clings to this "border" thing like a caged monkey clings to a blob of shit

The border issue is the frame of the debate. Nothing makes sense if this issue is misunderstood.

 

[irosie91]

tinnie clings to this "border" thing like a caged monkey clings to a blob of shit

The border issue is the frame of the debate. Nothing makes sense if this issue is misunderstood.

The "border issue" as you struggle to exploit it----is moot----as moot
as the monkey clinging to the blob of shit------best rendered moot by an
effective barrier to the episodic FLINGING

 

[P F Tinmore]

tinnie clings to this "border" thing like a caged monkey clings to a blob of shit

The border issue is the frame of the debate. Nothing makes sense if this issue is misunderstood.

The "border issue" as you struggle to exploit it----is moot----as moot
as the monkey clinging to the blob of shit------best rendered moot by an
effective barrier to the episodic FLINGING

You are just saying that because you are on the wrong side of history.

 

[irosie91]

the most comical events on this message board
consist of noting the vacuity of the posts
sherri CHOOSES to endorse. It's like being
in a mosque----one AMEEEN after the other --
for nothing -----then the holy "DEATH TO...."
chanting----- there was a time that I thought
high school foot ball pep rallies were a bit silly---
when kids spoke of "KILLING" THE OTHER TEAM
compared to sherri et al---they were brilliant

 

[P F Tinmore]

Another lie from the Pro Palestinian Arabs have attacked Jews for centuries ,became slightly more civilized and rose after WW1 with the killing of Jews "Palestine" as a Country does not exist and never will

Are you saying that the Palestinians went to Europe after WWI and attacked the Zionists?

No, You Pro Palestinian moron I am referring to the Savage Palestinians killing Israelis starting in the year 1919 However if you look at their history they have been killing Jews for Centuries and treating them as second class to put it n
Mildly

The Zionist invasion started before then and was confirmed by the Balfour Declaration in 1917.

 

[irosie91]

Are you saying that the Palestinians went to Europe after WWI and attacked the Zionists?

No, You Pro Palestinian moron I am referring to the Savage Palestinians killing Israelis starting in the year 1919 However if you look at their history they have been killing Jews for Centuries and treating them as second class to put it n
Mildly

The Zionist invasion started before then and was confirmed by the Balfour Declaration in 1917.

THE ASS LICKER OF THE RAPIST PIG invasion into jerusalem began
in 638 AD -----the city was rendered a cesspool of jihadist shit ----and
knee deep in blood ----until the 1800s when the remnant population of jews
began to rise once more. ----at that point it was still a sewer of
cholera, malaria, tuberculosis, impetigo, poliomyelitis and even
leprosy-------but the jews cleaned things up-----the the ass lickers of
the rapist pig mucked things up again in the 1940s with a starvation
siege and more filth from arabia -----in 1948 the survivors of the filth
were rescued and in 1967---the city was rescued and now thrives
despite the best efforts of filth by the ass lickers of the rapist pig
of arabia

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, Hossfly, et al,

I would suggest that you treat P F Tinmores comment with a grain of salt.

Do you have any proof that Israel had any borders in 1948 or 1967?

Then why does everyone refer to them as '48 or '67 borders? You better get on the ball and straighten out that gaggle of complete idiots who differ from Tinmore.

The only 1948 borders I know about are Palestinian. Nobody has been able to post anything different.

'67 borders is just another term for 1949 armistice lines and is also known as the green line. Those lines are specifically not to be political or territorial borders. They merely define areas of occupation.

I don't know who first coined the term.

(REFERENCES)

• OFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE THIRD SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, PART II
  • A/PV.207 11 May 1949
  • A/PV.207 of 11 May 1949

• Resolution 181 (II). Future government of Palestine
  • A/RES/181(II)29 November 1947
  • A/RES/181(II) of 29 November 1947

• Articles of the Treaty: Jordan and Israel
  • 7.3 Article 3: Borders
  • Israel?Jordan Treaty of Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• Peace Treaty between Israel and Egypt
  • Article II The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel
  • Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty

• Israel-Lebanon Negotiations
  • Borders Paragraph 2
  • Israel-Lebanon Negotiations
  • The Israel-Lebanon Border - June 1982
  • The Israel-Lebanon Border - June 1982

• “The Question of Palestine and the United Nations”
  • http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/DPI2499.pdf

(COMMENT)

The Israels made application to the UN. It was accepted based on the record, using Res 181 as an Annex to the Application.

On 11 May 1949, Israel became a Member of the United Nations. In admitting
Israel, the General Assembly specifically took note of Israel’s declarations and
explanations made earlier to the Assembly’s Ad Hoc Political Committee regarding
the implementation of resolutions 181 (II) and 194 (III). Those declarations and
explanations referred, among other things, to the international regime envisaged for
Jerusalem, the problem of Arab refugees and boundary questions.
SOURCE: http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/DPI2499.pdf

To be fair, the Palestinians don't recognize GA Res 181, as a matter of fact, after their rejection of their portion was found unacceptable. Their position is that Israel cannot accept their portion. In fact, that was one of the reasons behind the war.

Thus Israel has no "safe and recognized" borders under these agreements, and the cease-fire lines, as the above agreements signed in Rhodes in 1949 make clear, are unacceptable to the Arab countries. The November 1947 borders specified in the UN partition plan could have been the borders, but those borders were rejected by the Arabs at the time, and were not acceptable to Israel later since they proved indefensible against armies and porous to terrorists. Until the Israel-Egypt Peace Agreement of 1979 there was no change in the formal situation as of the 1949 Armistice.
SOURCE: Israel's Borders After 1948 War

With the Treaties concluded that effectively ended the 1948 War, there is formal recognition of the borders in each treaty. In fact, the Treaty recognition is in effect International Law, and in effect, established the formal borders. These Treaty negotiated borders were actually a little larger than the GA Res 181.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[Roudy]

Another lie from the Pro Palestinian Arabs have attacked Jews for centuries ,became slightly more civilized and rose after WW1 with the killing of Jews "Palestine" as a Country does not exist and never will

The State of Palestine exists, now

Good point. The UN does not create states. It can only recognize existing states

When did Palestine start to exist?

Palestine never existed as a state.

 

[Roudy]

Are you saying that the Palestinians went to Europe after WWI and attacked the Zionists?

No, You Pro Palestinian moron I am referring to the Savage Palestinians killing Israelis starting in the year 1919 However if you look at their history they have been killing Jews for Centuries and treating them as second class to put it n
Mildly

The Zionist invasion started before then and was confirmed by the Balfour Declaration in 1917.

Arab invaders need to leave Jewish Palestine and go to Jordan, Arab Palestine.

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, Hossfly, et al,

I would suggest that you treat P F Tinmores comment with a grain of salt.

Then why does everyone refer to them as '48 or '67 borders? You better get on the ball and straighten out that gaggle of complete idiots who differ from Tinmore.

The only 1948 borders I know about are Palestinian. Nobody has been able to post anything different.

'67 borders is just another term for 1949 armistice lines and is also known as the green line. Those lines are specifically not to be political or territorial borders. They merely define areas of occupation.

I don't know who first coined the term.

(REFERENCES)

• OFFICIAL RECORDS OF THE THIRD SESSION OF THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY, PART II
  • A/PV.207 11 May 1949
  • A/PV.207 of 11 May 1949

• Resolution 181 (II). Future government of Palestine
  • A/RES/181(II)29 November 1947
  • A/RES/181(II) of 29 November 1947

• Articles of the Treaty: Jordan and Israel
  • 7.3 Article 3: Borders
  • Israel?Jordan Treaty of Peace - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

• Peace Treaty between Israel and Egypt
  • Article II The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel
  • Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty

• Israel-Lebanon Negotiations
  • Borders Paragraph 2
  • Israel-Lebanon Negotiations
  • The Israel-Lebanon Border - June 1982
  • The Israel-Lebanon Border - June 1982

• “The Question of Palestine and the United Nations”
  • http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/DPI2499.pdf

(COMMENT)

The Israels made application to the UN. It was accepted based on the record, using Res 181 as an Annex to the Application.

On 11 May 1949, Israel became a Member of the United Nations. In admitting
Israel, the General Assembly specifically took note of Israel’s declarations and
explanations made earlier to the Assembly’s Ad Hoc Political Committee regarding
the implementation of resolutions 181 (II) and 194 (III). Those declarations and
explanations referred, among other things, to the international regime envisaged for
Jerusalem, the problem of Arab refugees and boundary questions.
SOURCE: http://unispal.un.org/pdfs/DPI2499.pdf

To be fair, the Palestinians don't recognize GA Res 181, as a matter of fact, after their rejection of their portion was found unacceptable. Their position is that Israel cannot accept their portion. In fact, that was one of the reasons behind the war.

Thus Israel has no "safe and recognized" borders under these agreements, and the cease-fire lines, as the above agreements signed in Rhodes in 1949 make clear, are unacceptable to the Arab countries. The November 1947 borders specified in the UN partition plan could have been the borders, but those borders were rejected by the Arabs at the time, and were not acceptable to Israel later since they proved indefensible against armies and porous to terrorists. Until the Israel-Egypt Peace Agreement of 1979 there was no change in the formal situation as of the 1949 Armistice.
SOURCE: Israel's Borders After 1948 War

With the Treaties concluded that effectively ended the 1948 War, there is formal recognition of the borders in each treaty. In fact, the Treaty recognition is in effect International Law, and in effect, established the formal borders. These Treaty negotiated borders were actually a little larger than the GA Res 181.

Most Respectfully,
R

Resolution 181 would be invalid if it was not approved by both sides. It was not. It was invalid. There was no valid resolution.

With the Treaties concluded that effectively ended the 1948 War, there is formal recognition of the borders in each treaty.

That is correct.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

Example of recognized international borders:

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949

All of Palestine's international borders were confirmed. No mention of any borders for Israel though.

 

[RoccoR]

P F Tinmore, Hossfly, et al,

In response.

Resolution 181 would be invalid if it was not approved by both sides. It was not. It was invalid. There was no valid resolution.

(COMMENT)

As a stand-alone Resolution it is "unimplemented," (not invalid) as a document used as an Annex, it was recognized as a reference document for the borders, by the UN to establish the boundaries.

2. The Armistice Demarcation Line is not to be construed in any sense as a political or territorial boundary,...

The Avalon Project : Egyptian-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, February 24, 1949

You are right, Armistice Line are never, by themselves borders. But in the case of Egypt, the Treaty says:

The permanent boundary between Egypt and Israel in the recognized international boundary between Egypt and the former mandated territory of Palestine, as shown on the map at Annex II, without prejudice to the issue of the status of the Gaza Strip. The Parties recognize this boundary as inviolable. Each will respect the territorial integrity of the other, including their territorial waters and airspace.

Example of recognized international borders:

1. The Armistice Demarcation Line shall follow the international boundary between the Lebanon and Palestine.

The Avalon Project : Lebanese-Israeli General Armistice Agreement, March 23, 1949

All of Palestine's international borders were confirmed. No mention of any borders for Israel though.

(COMMENT)

When they spoke of Palestine, they were speaking of the Mandate and not a nation. There is no State of Palestine. There is no border between any regional state and Palestine.

The conflict, initiated by the Arab States, was about recognition and the establishment of the State of Israel and not Palestine. Palestine, as a Region extends into several Arab States, including Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt. None of those countries are going to forfeit any part of the Mandate Territory now incorporated into their territory. Israel will follow that same practice.

The Government of Lebanon, he advises, has moved quickly to re-establish its effective authority through deployment of its security forces. On 12 June, it advised the United Nations it would send a composite force of army and internal security personnel to be based in Marjayoun. It also stated it would consider deploying its armed forces throughout southern Lebanon following confirmation by the Secretary-General of the withdrawal.

The report outlines the positions on the withdrawal communicated to the Secretary-General by the Governments of Lebanon and Israel. The Lebanese Government advised that the line used for the purpose of confirming the withdrawal did not conform in three locations to the internationally recognized border with Israel. Concerning the Shab'a farmlands, both Lebanon and Syria state that this land belongs to Lebanon. Also, concerning the eastern part of the border between Syria and Lebanon, the report notes, Lebanon is insisting on Israeli withdrawal from all Lebanese territory in the Mount Hermon area. It also insists on the on the immediate release of Lebanese hostages and detainees (as well as the return of Lebanese corpses) from Israeli prisons. It considers that all water equipment and infrastructure established by Israel in the territory be disconnected as part of the withdrawal, and the United Nations investigate why the southern part of the Hasbani River runs dry.

A letter from the Israeli Prime Minister quoted in the report states that Israel continues to have serious reservations about the map used to delineate the lines for withdrawal, notably in the area of border pillar 4 and the village of Metula. It also states that Israel has consistently argued that the resolution 425 line should not include the eastern Hasbani River. The Israeli Prime Minister also expresses concern about the division of the village of Rajr, which is describes as a "former Syrian village".

Notwithstanding their reservations, both governments have confirmed that establishing the identifying line was the sole responsibility of the United Nations, the Secretary-General notes, and that they would respect the line the United Nations' identified.
SOURCE: [18 Jun 2000] SC/6878 : SECURITY COUNCIL ENDORSES SECRETARY-GENERAL’S CONCLUSION ON ISRAELI WITHDRAWAL FROM LEBANON AS OF 16 JUNE

It has been the outcome that conflicts, between the Palestinian/Arab/Persian Alliance and Israel, has gradually increased the Israel control over territory. And with the continuation of conflict, that control will expand and grow (not recede). Boundaries are probably going to change again, as the probably for new conflicts increase.

The boundaries are there. Each country patrols them. Each regional country understands them and is not using the logic behind your position. With the exception of Syria, there is no border line disputes. With the exception of Syria, all borders are confirmed by treaty.

With the next regime change in Syria, that may change.

Most Respectfully,
R

 

[irosie91]

whole countries are not the only NON-EXISTENT things----based
on islamo nazi ideology-----whole religions also vanish.
For information on what constitutes a "RELIGION" talk
to an intelligent muslim youth. A very interesting fact is---
"THERE ARE THREE RELIGIONS IN THE WORLD" This
is a lesson virtually all muslims learn. Of course islam is the
BEST RELIGION----but christianity and judaism also qualify
as "religions" albeit inferior. Buddhism, hinduism,
zoroastrianism etc etc are simply not religions at all----
they are "FAKE" which is why they are OUTLAWED in most
shariah shit holes not that the practice of christianity or judaism
is free and clear-----but the "others" cannot even be described as
"religion" (except when it becomes economically useful to consider
----the "other" a religion which did happen in the Moghul empire--so
that hindus could become JIZYA PAYING DHIMMIS

 

[P F Tinmore]

P F Tinmore, Hossfly, et al,

In response.

Resolution 181 would be invalid if it was not approved by both sides. It was not. It was invalid. There was no valid resolution.

(COMMENT)

As a stand-alone Resolution it is "unimplemented," (not invalid) as a document used as an Annex, it was recognized as a reference document for the borders, by the UN to establish the boundaries.

You are right, Armistice Line are never, by themselves borders. But in the case of Egypt, the Treaty says:



Example of recognized international borders:



All of Palestine's international borders were confirmed. No mention of any borders for Israel though.

(COMMENT)

When they spoke of Palestine, they were speaking of the Mandate and not a nation. There is no State of Palestine. There is no border between any regional state and Palestine.

The conflict, initiated by the Arab States, was about recognition and the establishment of the State of Israel and not Palestine. Palestine, as a Region extends into several Arab States, including Lebanon, Jordan, Syria and Egypt. None of those countries are going to forfeit any part of the Mandate Territory now incorporated into their territory. Israel will follow that same practice.

The Government of Lebanon, he advises, has moved quickly to re-establish its effective authority through deployment of its security forces. On 12 June, it advised the United Nations it would send a composite force of army and internal security personnel to be based in Marjayoun. It also stated it would consider deploying its armed forces throughout southern Lebanon following confirmation by the Secretary-General of the withdrawal.

The report outlines the positions on the withdrawal communicated to the Secretary-General by the Governments of Lebanon and Israel. The Lebanese Government advised that the line used for the purpose of confirming the withdrawal did not conform in three locations to the internationally recognized border with Israel. Concerning the Shab'a farmlands, both Lebanon and Syria state that this land belongs to Lebanon. Also, concerning the eastern part of the border between Syria and Lebanon, the report notes, Lebanon is insisting on Israeli withdrawal from all Lebanese territory in the Mount Hermon area. It also insists on the on the immediate release of Lebanese hostages and detainees (as well as the return of Lebanese corpses) from Israeli prisons. It considers that all water equipment and infrastructure established by Israel in the territory be disconnected as part of the withdrawal, and the United Nations investigate why the southern part of the Hasbani River runs dry.

A letter from the Israeli Prime Minister quoted in the report states that Israel continues to have serious reservations about the map used to delineate the lines for withdrawal, notably in the area of border pillar 4 and the village of Metula. It also states that Israel has consistently argued that the resolution 425 line should not include the eastern Hasbani River. The Israeli Prime Minister also expresses concern about the division of the village of Rajr, which is describes as a "former Syrian village".

Notwithstanding their reservations, both governments have confirmed that establishing the identifying line was the sole responsibility of the United Nations, the Secretary-General notes, and that they would respect the line the United Nations' identified.
SOURCE: [18 Jun 2000] SC/6878 : SECURITY COUNCIL ENDORSES SECRETARY-GENERAL’S CONCLUSION ON ISRAELI WITHDRAWAL FROM LEBANON AS OF 16 JUNE

It has been the outcome that conflicts, between the Palestinian/Arab/Persian Alliance and Israel, has gradually increased the Israel control over territory. And with the continuation of conflict, that control will expand and grow (not recede). Boundaries are probably going to change again, as the probably for new conflicts increase.

The boundaries are there. Each country patrols them. Each regional country understands them and is not using the logic behind your position. With the exception of Syria, there is no border line disputes. With the exception of Syria, all borders are confirmed by treaty.

With the next regime change in Syria, that may change.

Most Respectfully,
R

When they spoke of Palestine, they were speaking of the Mandate and not a nation.

Not true. The 1949 armistice agreements took place almost a year after the end of the mandate. Palestine was still there. Its international borders were still there.

 

[proudveteran06]

P F

Not true. The 1949 armistice agreements took place almost a year after the end of the mandate. Palestine was still there. Its international borders were still there.

The " Armistice Agreement" that the Arabs themselves never honored or respected? Now, THAT is funny. Israel doesn't have to and won't. This is understood by everyone including the Arab World ( except you) If I make a legal agreement with anyone and I break it they are not legally mandated to follow it. It's honestly that simple.

It's not going to happen. Everyone notice how he first Speaks about the 1922 borders of " Palestine" then the 1947? What a fool