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Saigon found an exception to the rule -----perhaps---I do not actually believe it, however.
Hossfly -
That doesn't make books wrong.
There is absolutely no question at all that the term Palestine was used in its current uage during the 1920s.
It sure was and it referred to the geographical region but the only people who were called Palestinians were the region's Jews. Today's "Palestinians" didn't take that name until the mid-'60s.
I am not going to argue a moot point. The Palestinians are the people of the defined place called Palestine. They are the ones with the right to self determination inside those international borders without external interference. They are the ones with the right to form their own government. They are the ones with the right to declare a state.
Foreigners do not have those rights. External interference that denies them their rights is illegal.
A name designation means nothing.
Saigon found an exception to the rule -----perhaps---I do not actually believe it, however.
I am fairly well-informed on this topic - my own kibbutz was founded in 1930...
A kibbutz in Helsinki no doubt.Saigon found an exception to the rule -----perhaps---I do not actually believe it, however.
I am fairly well-informed on this topic - my own kibbutz was founded in 1930...
You have a kibbutz?
Saigon found an exception to the rule -----perhaps---I do not actually believe it, however.
I am fairly well-informed on this topic - my own kibbutz was founded in 1930...
You have a kibbutz?
iRosie -
The Fromkin book was published in 1989. It is probably the best book on this topic, though it obviously focuses in other areas.
Everyone posting on this topic should read Säid, IMO. He is one of the most literate spokespeople for the Palestinian people.
Basically ANY reputable source reporting from the area in the 1920s will use the word Palestinian. Not universally, of course, but very widely. 'Palestinian Arab' is also used very widely.
Rosie -
I lived on Kibbutz Dan, and you are more than welcome to check the details with people you know. What you expect to find out, I have no idea.
The thing I think you need to keep in mind is that different people use different words. When we talk about the word 'Palestinian' being used in the 1920, it doen't necessarily mean the word was universally used by Jews, or in England or in the US. It means Palestinian Arabs used it, and people who lived and worked around the region often used it as well.
Of course many Jews called themselves Palestinians from the time of Aliyah to Independence in 1948. Of course Palestinian Arabs also used the term Palestinians from shortly after the Second Aliyah until Independence in 1948.
It really is not difficult stuff, this.
The Wiki section on this is quite good:
Khalidi stresses that Palestinian identity has never been an exclusive one, with "Arabism, religion, and local loyalties" playing an important role. He argues that the modern national identity of Palestinians has its roots in nationalist discourses that emerged among the peoples of the Ottoman empire in the late 19th century which sharpened following the demarcation of modern nation-state boundaries in the Middle East after World War I. He acknowledges that Zionism played a role in shaping this identity, though "it is a serious mistake to suggest that Palestinian identity emerged mainly as a response to Zionism." Khalidi describes the Arab population of British Mandatory Palestine as having "overlapping identities," with some or many expressing loyalties to villages, regions, a projected nation of Palestine, an alternative of inclusion in a Greater Syria, an Arab national project, as well as to Islam."
"The programmes of four Palestinian nationalist societies jamyyat al-Ikha wal-Afaf (Brotherhood and Purity), al-jamiyya al-Khayriyya al-Islamiyya, Shirkat al-Iqtissad alFalastini al-Arabi and Shirkat al-Tijara al-Wataniyya al-Iqtisadiyya were reported in the newspaper Falastin in June 1914 by letter from R. Abu al-Salud. The four societies has similarities in function and ideals; the promotion of patriotism, educational aspirations and support for national industries."
In 1918, as the Palestinian Arab national movements gained strength in Jerusalem, Jaffa, Haifa, Acre and Nablus, Aref al-Aref joined Hajj Amīn, his brother Fakhri Al Husseini, Ishaaq Darweesh, Ibrahim Daeweesh, Jamal al-Husayni, Kamel Al Budeiri, and Sheikh Hassan Abu Al-Sooud in establishing the Arab Club.
Palestinian nationalism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
a newspaper named FALASTIN does not suggest a national identity
ForeverY -
No, I'm not Jewish.
I actually went to Israel largely by accident. I was travelling around Europe and met a bunch of people who had worked on kibbutz and had a great time. Everyone I met raved about it. I didn't have a lot of money and wanted to continue travelling, so I headed there from Greece and just volunteered. In those days you could do that.
I absolutely loved it; learned so much about the country, but also about warfare and people in general.
I'd intended to stay 3 months, but a year later I was still there!
Thanks for working hard for the Jewish State, and keeping them supplied with oranges.
Rosie -
The link have been posted, and can be easily verified. You can ignore them if they are inconveniant, and I am sure you will.
Jut be clear here - ignoring the fact that there wa a nationalist movement in 1914 means YOU are revinventing history for political reasons - just as you accuse the Palestinians of doing.
a newspaper named FALASTIN does not suggest a national identity
Right. Because a Palestinian nationalist movement would not suggest a national identity, right?
It sure was and it referred to the geographical region but the only people who were called Palestinians were the region's Jews. Today's "Palestinians" didn't take that name until the mid-'60s.
I am not going to argue a moot point. The Palestinians are the people of the defined place called Palestine. They are the ones with the right to self determination inside those international borders without external interference. They are the ones with the right to form their own government. They are the ones with the right to declare a state.
Foreigners do not have those rights. External interference that denies them their rights is illegal.
A name designation means nothing.
Fair enough, but to designate all of the original 711,000 "refugees" as having been "Palestinian" with legit land rights is bogus. Many of them were not indigenous to Palestine and the agencies empowered to register and assist them required only a 2 year residency of them (1946-1948) and even that, I suspect, was not rigidly enforced.
The fact is, they are and have been wards of the UN for so long it is impossible to separate their "right to self-determination without external interference" from the responsibilities of the UNRWA.
UNRWA, whose sole purpose is to serve the needs of those "refugees," has a yearly budget in excess of $600 mil.
