Israel and Iraq

[maineman]

the andrew jackson analogy is getting pretty fucking shopworn.

like I said, it would be like all of the indigenous tribes alligning together and descending upon the massachusetts bay colony with the express intent of driving the pilgrims into the atlantic.... AND LOSING!

Arabs who stayed in Israel own property, vote, get elected to the Knesset, run businesses....

arabs who vacated at the urging of the mufti live in refugee camps.

sucks to be them.

 

[Shogun]

yea.. I tellya.. you've seen it used a sum total of less than 50 times on this one messagebaord...

....yet it all of a sudden becomes as tired as the automatic antisemite label applied to anyone that criticisez israel?


looks like I hit a nerve, cowboy. Or, does your criticism ONLY apply to we pal-lovers?


sucks to be the natives too, doesn't it, asswipe? I bet it really chaffes to have your political schema conflicting so much between your cocksheeth response to anything critical of Israel and the reality of human suffering in our own history, eh?


But hey, Im just a palestinian-lover so what do you expect? wait, lemme answer that for you.. A jew down a well.. is that what you were about to say?


ps, brokeback mainman... considering that this conflict has been around for 60 years lets go ahead and extrapolate that to the first 60 years of the Native American wars... but, yes.. SUCKS to be them, right buddy? Why WOULDNT any indegenous population want to walk a trail of tears!?!?!?! Or shrug away their ancestral homes?

FUCK THEM, right buddy?


criticise george bush some more.. you know.. it SUCKS to be iraqi's but FUCK THEM, right, chappy?

 

[maineman]

yea.. I tellya.. you've seen it used a sum total of less than 50 times on this one messagebaord...

....yet it all of a sudden becomes as tired as the automatic antisemite label applied to anyone that criticisez israel?


looks like I hit a nerve, cowboy. Or, does your criticism ONLY apply to we pal-lovers?

well...if you could find a post where I called you either an anti-semite OR a "pal-lover" (although, I might think that that one was, for you, a freudian slip or sorts) that would be real nice.

 

[Shogun]

well...if you could find a post where I called you either an anti-semite OR a "pal-lover" (although, I might think that that one was, for you, a freudian slip or sorts) that would be real nice.

indeed, funny how your criticism of phrases seems to limited to that which criticizes jews...

say, far be it for a Palestinian-lover (read: your version of ******-lover) like me to point out that you seem to have an unending hatred for palestinians with an attitude like that... I guess it's a good thing there is no word for the automatic hatred of Pals... It might just get old like the constant antisemite label.


by the way... Here.. from your hero:


"My friends, circumstances render it impossible that you can flourish in the midst of a civilized community. You have but one remedy within your reach, and that is to remove to the west. And the sooner you do this, the sooner you will commence your career of improvement and prosperity."
Andrew Jackson

I saw the helpless Cherokees arrested and dragged from their homes, and driven at the bayonet point into the stockades. And in the chill of a drizzling rain on an October morning I saw them loaded like cattle or sheep into six hundred and forty-five wagons and started toward the west....On the morning of November the 17th we encountered a terrific sleet and snow storm with freezing temperatures and from that day until we reached the end of the fateful journey on March the 26th 1839, the sufferings of the Cherokees were awful. The trail of the exiles was a trail of death. They had to sleep in the wagons and on the ground without fire. And I have known as many as twenty-two of them to die in one night of pneumonia due to ill treatment, cold and exposure..."
Private John G. Burnett
Captain Abraham McClellan's Company,
2nd Regiment, 2nd Brigade, Mounted Infantry
Cherokee Indian Removal 1838-39

"One by one Indian peoples were removed to the West. The Delaware, the Ottawa, Shawnee, Pawnee and Potawatomi, the Sauk and Fox, Miami and Kickapoo, the Choctaw, Chickasaw, Creek and Seminole. In all some 90 thousand Indians were relocated. The Cherokee were among the last to go. Some reluctantly agreed to move. Others were driven from their homes at bayonet point. Almost two thousand of them died along the route they remembered as the Trail of Tears."
Documentary: The West (Ken Burns/Stephen Ives)

"The Cherokee are probably the most tragic instance of what could have succeeded in American Indian policy and didn't. All these things that Americans would proudly see as the hallmarks of civilization are going to the West by Indian people. They do everything they were asked except one thing. What the Cherokees ultimately are, they may be Christian, they may be literate, they may have a government like ours, but ultimately they are Indian. And in the end, being Indian is what kills them."
Richard White, Historian


Indeed. FUCK THEM TOO, right brokeback mainman?

 

[Shogun]

To the victors belong the spoils.
Andrew Jackson
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/a/andrew_jackson.html


sound familiar, mainman?

 

[Shogun]

“What good man would prefer a country covered with forests and ranged by a few thousand savages to our extensive Republic, studded with cities, towns, and prosperous farms, embellished with all the improvements which art can devise or industry execute”

Andrew Jackson quote


http://thinkexist.com/quotes/andrew_jackson/2.html


Indeed, mainman... I can see how right you are! There simply is NO COMPARISON HERE!

 

[Ruby]

Oh no!!! The horror!! Mass immigration from EUROPE?!?!?!?! OMG! OMG! OMG!

You mean as opposed to the U.S.? Should I be packing my bags for Belarus or waiting for us to be governed by Native Americans?

Oh right... only applies to Israel. Sheesh!

That dodge wont work. This was a very contrived mass immigration that had a goal of destroying an existing community so they could take what belonged to that community...genocide. It wasnt some sort of immigration where the immigrants came to JOIN the existing community, they came to WIPE THEM OUT and take over.

Well its good you bring up native americans...that is obviously Israels method isnt it? The same sort of genocide because we all know that there arent enough natives left to cause much of a problem and the longer you keep the stolen lands...the more YOURS they become.

I thought we LEARNED from the genocide of the natives, yet here we are helping another nation DO IT AGAIN. The difference IS that there are enough palestinians left and the situation CAN be remedied, unlike the one in the US.

How nice to see your support for displacing an entire nation of people, denying them their rights, supporting apartheid practices and more european expansion into other regions and wiping out the natives to do it

 

[jillian]

That dodge wont work. This was a very contrived mass immigration that had a goal of destroying an existing community so they could take what belonged to that community...genocide. It wasnt some sort of immigration where the immigrants came to JOIN the existing community, they came to WIPE THEM OUT and take over.

Well its good you bring up native americans...that is obviously Israels method isnt it? The same sort of genocide because we all know that there arent enough natives left to cause much of a problem and the longer you keep the stolen lands...the more YOURS they become.

I thought we LEARNED from the genocide of the natives, yet here we are helping another nation DO IT AGAIN. The difference IS that there are enough palestinians left and the situation CAN be remedied, unlike the one in the US.

How nice to see your support for displacing an entire nation of people, denying them their rights, supporting apartheid practices and more european expansion into other regions and wiping out the natives to do it

Contrived? What drivel. It was "contrived" because Hitler did a number on European Jewry and Britain and the U.S. wouldn't take in the refugees. But Jews never left Israel (In case you hadn't noticed, we've been there almost 6,000 years).

Natives? The natives left, love... or didn't the grand mufti send them packing?

A little education for you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

 

[Ruby]

the andrew jackson analogy is getting pretty fucking shopworn.

like I said, it would be like all of the indigenous tribes alligning together and descending upon the massachusetts bay colony with the express intent of driving the pilgrims into the atlantic.... AND LOSING!

Arabs who stayed in Israel own property, vote, get elected to the Knesset, run businesses....

arabs who vacated at the urging of the mufti live in refugee camps.

sucks to be them.

BZZT incorrect!

Its a myth that palestinians were directed to flee...many tried to flee to avoid being killed but that makes the refugees and they have a right to return (international law and all that). Arabs DO NOT have the same rights as Jews in Palestine and there are laws the prohibit ownership of property etc.

Sucks to be them? This is what you say about people who were attacked and displaced for no other reason than the zionists wanted their lands for themselves and were backed by the British powers so were able to accomplish it. Being attacked unjustly and failing to be able to defend yourself means its their fault somehow and they deserve what they got?

http://www.radioislam.org/historia/zionism/levy_morris_origsins.html

They lied when they told us that the Arabs of Lod and Ramle "asked to leave their cities" (the head of the history department of the Israel Defense Forces).

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/101conflict.shtml#10

Q: I've heard that the Palestinians left Israel on their own or under order from Arab leaders in 1948. Is this so?

A: There were between 650,000 and 1.2 million Palestinians who left the area that was to become Israel in 1948. The circumstances of their departure varied. The records of the Hagana (the Jewish militia which later became the Israeli army) show that there were some official plans to empty Palestinian towns and villages. Records also clearly show that there were at least several instances of Palestinian towns suffering massacres at the hands of Israeli soldiers (both sides launched numerous attacks on civilians, especially in the early part of the war). Minutes from meetings of different Jewish leadership groups also indicate that there was definitely a desire to see as much of a Jewish majority in whatever territory would end up being Israel?s as possible. There is also clear evidence that some of the more radical Jewish militias attacked Palestinian towns with the goal of spreading fear in the Arab populace, in the hopes that this would make them flee.

It has often been claimed that the Arab Higher Committee broadcast a call for the Palestinians to flee so that the invading Arab armies could defeat the Zionists and then the Palestinians could return. No such call was ever issued. There were, of course, calls to move women and children out of the path of the fighting, but there was never a call for all civilians to leave. Many of the Palestinians fled in the very early stages of the war, long before any such call would have been issued in any case.

There is plenty of old propaganda still around I see and these lies have been completely debunked.

There is plenty of truly good information now put out by the Israeli historians themselves and are using Israeli govt documents, the papers of various leaders and military commanders etc.

 

[José]

Originally posted by Maineman
Arabs who stayed in Israel own property, vote, get elected to the Knesset, run businesses....

arabs who vacated at the urging of the mufti live in refugee camps.

sucks to be them.

Civilian populations have been fleeing warzones since the first Stone Age war.

And I wonder how many young men in Syria, Lebannon and Iraq, after reading retarded statements like "sucks to be them", think to themselves:

“Two skyscrappers was too little, it should have been 10... at least...”.

 

[Shogun]

so.. jews who were there for 6k years counts....


but pals that have just as rich of a history there dont.


see where im going with this?


read any good Andy Jackson quotes lately, Jillian?

Apparently, this guy was just a raging white hating terrorist.

SUCKS TO BE HIM!

 

[Ruby]

Contrived? What drivel. It was "contrived" because Hitler did a number on European Jewry and Britain and the U.S. wouldn't take in the refugees. But Jews never left Israel (In case you hadn't noticed, we've been there almost 6,000 years).

Natives? The natives left, love... or didn't the grand mufti send them packing?

A little education for you...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_exodus_from_Arab_lands

The jews who lived there before this mass euro immigration lived there in PEACE and many of them OPPOSED this mass invasion as the rest of the palestinians did.

The fact the Germany committed genocide against the Jews and Britain wouldnt take them in ISNT THE FAULT OF PALESTINIANS and you dont get to commit genocide against them for crimes committed in europe against european jews.

No grand mufti sent them packing, YOU DONT EVEN KEEP up with information on this issue you seem to care so much about do ya? Its obvious, you are spouting very old, very debunked propaganda. Next you wanna tell me it was EMPTY land too right?

 

[Ruby]

Civilian populations have been fleeing warzones since the first Stone Age war.

And I wonder how many young men in Syria, Lebannon and Iraq, after reading retarded statements like "sucks to be them", think to themselves:

“Two skyscrappers was too little, it should have been 10... at least...”.

Isnt it funny how its only palestinians that are sopposed to give up their right to return even though it is international law that refugees have the RIGHT to return.

I guess all the Iraqis who flee Iraq during our invasion arent ALLOWED to return then...they have no right to go back home?

 

[Shogun]

ps.. why the hell would the Pals have to pay the price for a european war anyway?

this is the SAME question the president of iran asks while trying to validate HIS opinion of Israel. Imagine how nice it would be to to rob him of being able to bitchslap you with such a question after embracing the pals under my Clintonian peace plan...

 

[Ruby]

so.. jews who were there for 6k years counts....


but pals that have just as rich of a history there dont.


see where im going with this?


read any good Andy Jackson quotes lately, Jillian?

Apparently, this guy was just a raging white hating terrorist.

SUCKS TO BE HIM!

Of course I have to mention that its not even the jews who descend from that area that created Israel...its jews from EUROPE, its not the arab jews at all. Jewish is not a race, no matter how much some people try to sell it as such. Race is just ethnicity and all ethnicity really is is where the majority of your ancestors came from (region of the world). The european jews who make claim to Israel arent FROM THERE, they are descended from EUROPE.

The fact that 3 religions were born there and sprang from there dosent give everyone in those religions claims to that land and region as their own homeland either. It dosent mean they "came" from there, it means they adopted a religion that came from there.

Just had to add that.

 

[maineman]

Civilian populations have been fleeing warzones since the first Stone Age war.

And I wonder how many young men in Syria, Lebannon and Iraq, after reading retarded statements like "sucks to be them", think to themselves:

“Two skyscrappers was too little, it should have been 10... at least...”.

I will relate to you the story that I thought I had already related here. I am VERY close with an Israeli woman.... she was a teenager at the time of the 1948 war. Her father had purchased farmland in the galillee in the early 30's. His neighbor was an arab. They helped each other at harvest time... their children played together. In the weeks prior to the partitioning of Palestine, my friend's father's arab neighbor came to him and told him that he had been asked to leave and take a brief two week vacation in Damascus while the pan arab army swept ALL the Jews in Palestine into the mediterranean and that when he returned, he intended to own my friend's father's farm because my friend and all of her family would be treading water. After the dust settled and the ceasefire happened, the arab neighbor and his family were still in Damascus - where their descendants still are - and the family farm of my friend from Israel doubled in size.

Spoils of war.

and your suggestion that palestinian nationalists - let alone Syrians or Lebanese - who have no axe to grind in this issue - have any connection to the islamic wahabbist extremists that attacked us indicates that you are too ignorant of the actual dynamics at play here to intelligently contribute to this conversation.

 

[José]

Originally posted by maineman
I will relate to you the story that I thought I had already related here. I am VERY close with an Israeli woman.... she was a teenager at the time of the 1948 war. Her father had purchased farmland in the galillee in the early 30's. His neighbor was an arab. They helped each other at harvest time... their children played together. In the weeks prior to the partitioning of Palestine, my friend's father's arab neighbor came to him and told him that he had been asked to leave and take a brief two week vacation in Damascus while the pan arab army swept ALL the Jews in Palestine into the mediterranean and that when he returned, he intended to own my friend's father's farm because my friend and all of her family would be treading water. After the dust settled and the ceasefire happened, the arab neighbor and his family were still in Damascus - where their descendants still are - and the family farm of my friend from Israel doubled in size.

Spoils of war.

Following your supremacist logic the white south african government should be put back in power and the black population sent to the pseudo republics and townships that were dismantled in the 90’s.

The entire territory of South Africa was the “spoil of war” after all the wars of the 19th century and the black armed struggle of the last century.

And while you’re at it, let’s herd all the native americans and lock them up in reservations.

Let’s strip them of citizenship, their right to vote, their right to move freely throughout America and let’s take away all the compensations they got for the land they lost (cassinos, etc...)

Democratic states do not keep the native population herded into small, barren enclaves in order to maintain an artificial ethnic majority.

Supremacist states do.

Democratic states grant citizenship to all ethnic groups whose historical homelands are comprised by the territory of the state, they respect the right of all ethnic groups to move freely throughout their territory and come up with alternative ways to compensate the discriminated ethnic group for their losses.

That you are calling me ignorant must be the irony of the century.

Come back when you finally understand the basic difference between a democratic state and a racial dictatorship.

 

[José]

In Palestine, I don’t even advocate majority rule, cause I believe the jewish people, due to their history of persecution, have special security concerns that have to be taken into consideration and are better adressed by an international protectorate that would last for as long as it takes to promote the national reconciliation between both ethnic groups and would only be dismantled with the consent of the jewish population of Palestine with the condition that it could be reinstalled at any time.

 

[José]

Originally posted by maineman
and your suggestion that palestinian nationalists - let alone Syrians or Lebanese - who have no axe to grind in this issue - have any connection to the islamic wahabbist extremists that attacked us indicates that you are too ignorant of the actual dynamics at play here to intelligently contribute to this conversation.

Sure...

Mohammed Atta didn’t spend most of his life in Egypt seeing the palestinian people being killed by american military hardware.

Ziad Jarrah never heard of any palestinian refugee camp in his native Lebannon.

Wake up and smell the coffee, buddy.

The jewish racial dictatorship is a major source of anti americanism in the Middle East and one of the main recruiting office of Al Quaeda.

 

[GHook93]

Ahh so your just concerned with Jewish bashing. I can live with that. I happen to support Israel and believe we should continue to do as we have with and for them. Terrorists are coddled by the left, but on this issue you disagree.

I agree with you. Calling the US government the equivalent of Nazis angers me a lot more than anything anyone can say about Israel.

The left is getting so radical it is scarey. In college I probably would have considered myself on the left, but as you get older the middle just seems so much more logical.