Israel and Iraq

[Said1]

Heh... major techie... I was amused that his website has a welcome in Hebrew. Guess he hates Israel, but he'll take the shekels, eh?

Opps. It's David2004. But still.

 

[jillian]

Opps. It's David2004. But still.

Ahhhhhhh... no worries. My apologies to david2000.

david2004 seems to post the same garbage on every board he visits...

 

[Ruby]

I will relate to you the story that I thought I had already related here. I am VERY close with an Israeli woman.... she was a teenager at the time of the 1948 war. Her father had purchased farmland in the galillee in the early 30's. His neighbor was an arab. They helped each other at harvest time... their children played together. In the weeks prior to the partitioning of Palestine, my friend's father's arab neighbor came to him and told him that he had been asked to leave and take a brief two week vacation in Damascus while the pan arab army swept ALL the Jews in Palestine into the mediterranean and that when he returned, he intended to own my friend's father's farm because my friend and all of her family would be treading water. After the dust settled and the ceasefire happened, the arab neighbor and his family were still in Damascus - where their descendants still are - and the family farm of my friend from Israel doubled in size.

Spoils of war.

and your suggestion that palestinian nationalists - let alone Syrians or Lebanese - who have no axe to grind in this issue - have any connection to the islamic wahabbist extremists that attacked us indicates that you are too ignorant of the actual dynamics at play here to intelligently contribute to this conversation.

Yes, your fathers friend trumps that actual Israeli documents!

There was no call to arabs to ABANDON their homes AND furthermore, there will always be people who flee the fighting and try to save their lives BUT that does not mean they have given up the right to return to their homes. They were indeed refugees and are still classified as refugees!

When did I talk about who attacked us? I have no idea about what you are going on about there at all.

http://www.bintjbeil.com/E/occupation/ameu_iraqjews.html

There is the story of an Iraqi Jew who joined the zionists and was there in the creation of Israel.

When I reported to the Labor Office in al-Majdal, they saw that I could read and write Arabic and Hebrew and they said that I could find a good-paying job with the Military Governor's office. The Arabs were under the authority of these Israeli Military Governors. A clerk handed me a bunch of forms in Arabic and Hebrew. Now it dawned on me. Before Israel could establish its farmers' city, it had to rid al-Majdal of its indigenous Palestinians. The forms were petitions to the United Nations Inspectors asking for transfer out of Israel to Gaza, which was under Egyptian control.

I read over the petition. In signing, the Palestinian would be saying that he was of sound mind and body and was making the request for transfer free of pressure or duress. Of course, there was no way that they would leave without being pressured to do so. These families had been there hundreds of years, as farmers, primitive artisans, weavers. The Military Governor prohibited them from pursuing their livelihoods, just penned them up until they lost hope of resuming their normal lives. That's when they signed to leave.

and

I could no longer be part of this oppression and I left. Those Palestinians who didn't sign up for transfers were taken by force-just put in trucks and dumped in Gaza. About four thousand people were driven from al-Majdal in one way or another. The few who remained were collaborators with the Israeli authorities.

So I guess according to the spoils of war, the US now owns Iraq and all the Iraqis who have fled the fighting and now reside outside of Iraq lose all their ownership rights of their property and cannot be allowed to return...is that correct since thats what you are saying is true of Palestinians.

 

[Ruby]

THey aren't refugees. Israel didn't force them out.

Do I get my ancestral property back in Belarus because my family left because of pogroms and Stalin?

I'm still waiting.

So all those Israeli govt documents are wrong...the communications giving orders to evacuate areas of Palestinians and not allow them back are all just fiction?

Plenty of information has already been offered to dispute your nonsense claim that they were forcibly removed from their own lands. They didnt leave voluntarily AND if they did to escape violence they have a RIGHT to return as accordance with international law as well as moral law. Running from violence to try and save your families lives does not mean you give up your rights to your home, your nation or your owned property.

 

[Ruby]

Actually, you have it backwards. It was the "palestinians", who were nomadic squatters.

Ultimately, it doesn't matter. I'm not one of these "kill all arabs" people. But I DO resent when people don't realistically assess the situation and resolve it in a way that leaves Israel to Israel and the Territories to the Palestinians.

And before you mention it, no the settlements shouldn't exist. And that would have to be dealt with in any resolution.

But... before it's resolved, Hamas really has to change, as it's goal, the obliteration of Israel. They still want to push the Jews into the sea and have never taken any steps counter to that position.

Israel, however, voluntarily moved back from the territories and disbanded settlements unilaterally. What shows of good faith have the Palestinians made?

First of all, Arafat conceeded and said that "Isreal had a right to exist" yet the settlements kept being built and no state for Palestine. Its obvious that this dosent REALLY help at all.

There is a REASON Israel wont declare permanent borders, it plans to keep expanding and that is EXACTLY what it is doing and has always been doing.

They disband small settlements and then they GO RIGHT BACK UP as well as other news ones being built and going up. Lets not distance from the real facts here.

Its also bullshit about Hamas, they even talked with Gush Shalom and said they were willing to negotiate but they wanted REAL negotiations and not the political games that have been done in the past. Israel demanded Arafat conceed their right to exist...he did and got NOTHING. Then there would be a big dog and pony show of peace talks and they would offer palestine an permanant occupation that NO ONE in their right mind could accept. These were GAMES and not REAL negotiations.

Hamas was clear to Gush Shalom that they will never say Israel has a RIGHT to exist because it would be saying they had a right to come and displace all those palestinians BUT they would acknowledge their need for continued existence and negotiate the 2 state solution. Its all on Gush Shaloms site and even includes pictures of them with Hamas!

Palestinians have often obeyed cease fires, they conceeded Israels right to exist and were willing to try to work out the 2 state solution but they just got more settlements, more curfews, more incitement and then it becomes obvious that Isreal wont negotiate because THEY DONT HAVE TO...they just have to keep the conflict going until they accomplish the native american styled genocide and then they take it all.

Israel has no motivation to TRULY negotiate or compromise...if they did, they could declare permanant borders (67 borders even, they dont even have to go back to 48) and take one year to dismantle all settments and announce ANYONE outside those borders are now illegally in the nation of Palestine and will have to face Palestinian authorties. Palestinians arent stopping Israel from doing this are they? They could also IMMEDIATELY relinquish control over the Palestinians water to the Palestinians...a very serious problem they have promised to correct for many years now yet the problem has GOTTEN WORSE and not better at all.

 

[Shogun]

I agree with you. Calling the US government the equivalent of Nazis angers me a lot more than anything anyone can say about Israel.

The left is getting so radical it is scarey. In college I probably would have considered myself on the left, but as you get older the middle just seems so much more logical.

ESPECIALLY when the Right is so tempting due to it's absolute refusal to criticize anything hebrew!

No nation is impervious to horrible action. America is not impervious to imperialism and Israel sure the fuck is not immune to treating their ethnic minority how the germans treated them.

little splash of antisemitism for you this morning, i guess.

 

[M14 Shooter]

Israel has been the main agitator (with the ernest help of the US for the past forty years, ever since the Suez crises, and before that on their own starting in 1947.

If by 'agitate" you mean "having the audactity to want to exist", then you're right.

 

[Shogun]

If by 'agitate" you mean "having the audactity to want to exist", then you're right.

yea.. much like Germany was JUST in the market for increasing their borders and were merely SUGGESTING they were the master race...

 

[doniston]

I see you've met The David2000, stealth, posting drone. I see they haven't up-dated the prototype, yet. He was out of commission for awhile, certainly wasn't for re-programming.

Where did you find that particular statement by Jillian. I couldn't find it, nor any reference to "the David2000" six months or a year ago??? or what??

 

[doniston]

The ancient texts are "revisionist history" and current propaganda "corects" them?

Does that really make any sense to you?

No, the faulty reporting and explainations of the contents of said texts is what is revisionist. Your's is the "Current propoganda" regarding them

 

[doniston]

If by 'agitate" you mean "having the audactity to want to exist", then you're right.

You don't take over someone else's property and murder the occupants as "audacity to want to exist".

 

[jillian]

You don't take over someone else's property and murder the occupants as "audacity to want to exist".

Please show us where the Jews MADE the palestinians leave. That old grand mufti telling his folk to leave seems to be causing all kinds of problems for you guys since not a single one of you has addressed it.

You've also already been given link after link to where the Jews BOUGHT the vast majority of the land they live on.

But no anti-semitism, eh? I ask nothing more than holding other countries to the same standard you wish to hold Israel to...

And while we're at it, again, why aren't you campaigning for me to get back my ancestral property in Belarus?

 

[Shogun]

well, theres the good ole antisemite trump card again.

Hey, we paid France for the louisiana purchase so why would those peksy fucking injuns have a reason to complain, right?

 

[jillian]

well, theres the good ole antisemite trump card again.

Hey, we paid France for the louisiana purchase so why would those peksy fucking injuns have a reason to complain, right?

You keep alluding to that every time you don't have an answer or what I say doesn't fit with your paradigm.

 

[Shogun]

shall I quote your use of the word and it's insinuation?

what is the point in debating this if your side is going to reach for that same old tired gun?


ottomans are now pals, eh?

 

[maineman]

shall I quote your use of the word and it's insinuation?

what is the point in debating this if your side is going to reach for that same old tired gun?


ottomans are now pals, eh?

no..but Ottomans owned the land for seven hundred years. Since the beginning of that long long stretch of time, palestinians have had no legitimate claim to ownership of any of that land... It was clearly the ottoman's to sell and it was clearly not the palestinians to legitimately claim ownership of.

 

[doniston]

Please show us where the Jews MADE the palestinians leave. That old grand mufti telling his folk to leave seems to be causing all kinds of problems for you guys since not a single one of you has addressed it.

You've also already been given link after link to where the Jews BOUGHT the vast majority of the land they live on.

But no anti-semitism, eh? I ask nothing more than holding other countries to the same standard you wish to hold Israel to...

QUOTE]

1. Killing them is a good way of getting them to leave, and advice is not always followed. especially when it is under threat of death. Why address something that isn't relevant?

2. BS about the links, there have been a couple which stated a small persentage was purchased or previously owned by Jews, 14 percent is certainly not a vast majority. 3. The anti-semitism comment makes no sense at all, as it would have to be anti-anti-sematism. In what way is this relevant to our conversation.

 

[jillian]

1. Killing them is a good way of getting them to leave, and advice is not always followed. especially when it is under threat of death. Why address something that isn't relevant?

2. BS about the links, there have been a couple which stated a small persentage was purchased or previously owned by Jews, 14 percent is certainly not a vast majority. 3. The anti-semitism comment makes no sense at all, as it would have to be anti-anti-sematism. In what way is this relevant to our conversation.

Actually, the one reliable link said it was about 80%.

And no one threatened them to make them leave.

Now you know why the anti-semitism comment is relevant. And if you don't think it factors in to why Israel is held to a different standard than every other sovereign nation, then I can't help you.

If Canada had a terrorist organization which took over our northern border and started lobbing missiles into detroit, while using the civilian population as shields, would you be yelling about the canadians being hit? Or would you think we had every right to protect ourselves?

Now...what was your position when Israel defended itself from the Hezbollah missiles coming from Lebanon?

Answer your question?

 

[Ruby]

It has already been addressed and shown there was NO mufti calling for palestinians to leave nor would refugees fleeing the violence be giving up their right to return to their homes and communities. International law is very clear on this fact.

http://www.jewishvoiceforpeace.org/publish/101conflict.shtml

Q: I've heard that the Palestinians left Israel on their own or under order from Arab leaders in 1948. Is this so?

A: There were between 650,000 and 1.2 million Palestinians who left the area that was to become Israel in 1948. The circumstances of their departure varied. The records of the Hagana (the Jewish militia which later became the Israeli army) show that there were some official plans to empty Palestinian towns and villages. Records also clearly show that there were at least several instances of Palestinian towns suffering massacres at the hands of Israeli soldiers (both sides launched numerous attacks on civilians, especially in the early part of the war). Minutes from meetings of different Jewish leadership groups also indicate that there was definitely a desire to see as much of a Jewish majority in whatever territory would end up being Israel?s as possible. There is also clear evidence that some of the more radical Jewish militias attacked Palestinian towns with the goal of spreading fear in the Arab populace, in the hopes that this would make them flee.

It has often been claimed that the Arab Higher Committee broadcast a call for the Palestinians to flee so that the invading Arab armies could defeat the Zionists and then the Palestinians could return. No such call was ever issued. There were, of course, calls to move women and children out of the path of the fighting, but there was never a call for all civilians to leave. Many of the Palestinians fled in the very early stages of the war, long before any such call would have been issued in any case.

As the fighting intensified, and more villages came under attack, more and more Palestinians fled the war. Organized expulsions also continued. In some areas, especially cities like Haifa and Yaffo, where Arabs and Jews had lived together in relative stability, there were efforts made by Jews to get their neighbors to stay, and these met with some success at times. As today, there was a great variety of views among Jews in Palestine/Israel.

But whatever the circumstances, Israel went beyond its rights in passing laws to prevent the Palestinians from returning after the war. International law requires countries to allow people who flee a war back to their homes when the war ends. Israel was specifically enjoined to do so by the United Nations after the war, but did not comply. This was the beginning of the Palestinian refugee crisis, which remains the most vexing issue between the two peoples to this day. For more information about this, see Benny Morris' book, "The Birth of the Palestinian Refugee Problem Revisited." return to top

http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml

SHLOMO BEN-AMI: Of course, it is nonsense. I mean, it was populated. Obviously, it was populated. I mean, the notion that existed, I think it was Israel Zangwill, the first to say that we are — we came a nation without a land to a land without a people. Obviously, it was not true, but again, part of the tragedy was that the Palestinians, as such, did not have — the Palestinian peasants did not have the full control of their own destiny. Part of that land was bought by the Zionist organizations from Affendis, landowners living in Turkey or anywhere else throughout the Ottoman Empire, and these people were inevitably evicted by these kind of transactions. But as a whole, I think that not more than 6 or 7% of the entire surface of the state of Israel was bought. The rest of it was either taken over or won during the war.

For those who dont know who Shlomo Ben-Ami is...

We're joined by Shlomo Ben-Ami, both an insider and a scholar. As Foreign Minister under Ehud Barak, he was a key participant in years of Israel-Palestinian peace talks, including the Camp David and Taba talks in 2000 and 2001. An Oxford-trained historian, he is currently Vice President of the Toledo Peace Centre in Madrid

Yes this Israeli historian is just lying right? He ADMITS that only 6% to 7% of the land was bought and that INCLUDES land bought from the Turks!

 

[Ruby]

Israel is the one using civilians as shields.

http://www.btselem.org/english/Human_Shields/20060720_Human_Shields_in_Beit_Hanun.asp

B'Tselem's initial investigation indicates that, during an incursion by Israeli forces into Beit Hanun, in the northern Gaza Strip, on 17 July 2006, soldiers seized control of two buildings in the town and used residents as human shield.

After seizing control of the buildings, the soldiers held six residents, two of them minors, on the staircases of the two buildings, at the entrance to rooms in which the soldiers positioned themselves, for some twelve hours. During this time, there were intense exchanges of gunfire between the soldiers and armed Palestinians. The soldiers also demanded that one of the occupants walk in front of them during a search of all the apartments in one of the buildings, after which they released her.