Israel and Iraq

[Shogun]

thats bullshit, Jillian.

Are those who can see the travesty of manifest destiny in North America also anti-caucasian? Of course not. Pretending that Israel was created from scratch and that the pals just crawled out of the gutters from out of nowhere to provide death to jews totally ignores the reality, cause, and eventual solution of the conflict in Palisrael. Demonizing anyone as simply jew hating anti-semites for daring to consider more than the jews is disingenuous and amounts to your own flavor of socially accepted racism. You might as well be defending Israeli Jim Crow laws.


See, if we had given the jews texas instead of a land already occupied by people, wheather those people met your standard of culture or not, we probably would not be having this conflict right now. Im sure that "terrorist" pals would not have a reason to be aggressive about their modern "force them to wear shoes and read the bible for their own good" treatment. No, Jillian, then it would be the people in Texas looking to react to a percieved invasion. Which, Im betting, is not a unique reaction for the pals any more than humanitarian concern for people other than jews is not unique to only jew hating anti semites.


in fact, Im betting that the automatic assumption of such is about as helpful as being written off as a ****** lover in 1940's America.


just saying.

 

[jillian]

thats bullshit, Jillian.

Are those who can see the travesty of manifest destiny in North America also anti-caucasian? Of course not. Pretending that Israel was created from scratch and that the pals just crawled out of the gutters from out of nowhere to provide death to jews totally ignores the reality, cause, and eventual solution of the conflict in Palisrael. Demonizing anyone as simply jew hating anti-semites for daring to consider more than the jews is disingenuous and amounts to your own flavor of socially accepted racism. You might as well be defending Israeli Jim Crow laws.


See, if we had given the jews texas instead of a land already occupied by people, wheather those people met your standard of culture or not, we probably would not be having this conflict right now. Im sure that "terrorist" pals would not have a reason to be aggressive about their modern "force them to wear shoes and read the bible for their own good" treatment. No, Jillian, then it would be the people in Texas looking to react to a percieved invasion. Which, Im betting, is not a unique reaction for the pals any more than humanitarian concern for people other than jews is not unique to only jew hating anti semites.


in fact, Im betting that the automatic assumption of such is about as helpful as being written off as a ****** lover in 1940's America.


just saying.

K, Shogun. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. But Israel didn't attack the palestinians to expand their borders. They were attacked, seriatim, by their loving neighbors. In defending itself, it won territory. And yet you effectively argue that the palestinians should have a do-over... should be able to overrun Israel and kill ITS civilians; it's children; it's aged. And the fact is that Arab leaders have funded keeping this fight alive because it keeps the terrorists focused on something outside of their own corrupt regimes.

Do please name one other country that won land in defensive battle that had the world screaming that it should give it back, or engage in policies which would result in its destruction. They talk about "right of return" which, by virtue of the disparate birth rates between Jews and palestinians would result in yet another Arab country.

They complain that Israel is an "apartheid" nation because it built a wall to keep out people who were blowing up their children, yet say nothing about the myriad of Arab countries which EXCLUDE, yes, EXCLUDE Jews. Do you know how many countries in the mid-east I would be prohibited from going to? Yet the focus is on the one safe-haven for Jews. This irks some for some reason. They complain about the money given to Israel, but you never hear any complaints about the money given to Arafat to sit at the peace table... which he did. And then he said he couldn't agree to peace or "I'll be sleeping with Rabin". Yes, that's what he said. So much for a two-state solution.

Even the recent efforts in Lebanon to oust Hezbollah resulted in screaming and horror from most of the world. But, truth is, if Canada had a terrorist group which infiltrated it and was sending missiles into Detroit, no one in the world would ever question our right to retaliate. Yet, that is what happened with Israel. Hezbollah hid behind civilians and then pointed cameras on the civilians that IT had put in danger and said to the world, "look what Israel is doing to the civilian population".

The double-standard is, frankly, stomach-turning, or should be.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Arabs not Jews caused the "palastinian" refuge problem. Arabs not Jews kept that problem alive all these years.

 

[Shogun]

K, Shogun. You're certainly entitled to your opinion. But Israel didn't attack the palestinians to expand their borders. They were attacked, seriatim, by their loving neighbors. In defending itself, it won territory. And yet you effectively argue that the palestinians should have a do-over... should be able to overrun Israel and kill ITS civilians; it's children; it's aged. And the fact is that Arab leaders have funded keeping this fight alive because it keeps the terrorists focused on something outside of their own corrupt regimes.
Do please name one other country that won land in defensive battle that had the world screaming that it should give it back, or engage in policies which would result in its destruction. They talk about "right of return" which, by virtue of the disparate birth rates between Jews and palestinians would result in yet another Arab country.
They complain that Israel is an "apartheid" nation because it built a wall to keep out people who were blowing up their children, yet say nothing about the myriad of Arab countries which EXCLUDE, yes, EXCLUDE Jews. Do you know how many countries in the mid-east I would be prohibited from going to? Yet the focus is on the one safe-haven for Jews. This irks some for some reason. They complain about the money given to Israel, but you never hear any complaints about the money given to Arafat to sit at the peace table... which he did. And then he said he couldn't agree to peace or "I'll be sleeping with Rabin". Yes, that's what he said. So much for a two-state solution.
Even the recent efforts in Lebanon to oust Hezbollah resulted in screaming and horror from most of the world. But, truth is, if Canada had a terrorist group which infiltrated it and was sending missiles into Detroit, no one in the world would ever question our right to retaliate. Yet, that is what happened with Israel. Hezbollah hid behind civilians and then pointed cameras on the civilians that IT had put in danger and said to the world, "look what Israel is doing to the civilian population".
The double-standard is, frankly, stomach-turning, or should be.

No, Jillian, I didn't argue that pals should get a do-over. My post specifically stated that it is bullshit to assume that a concern over the humanity of palestine is indicative of anti-semitism or that being critical is Israel amounts to jew hating anti-semitism. Again, such does nothing but shut down the conversation when you assume that a concern for pal humanity amounts to this decades version of the "******-lover" label used by those who don't want to rock the boat.

and history didnt begin in the year Israel was created. If you think indegenous populations, wether you think they count or not, enjoy being forced out of land they were living on I'd suggest you share that joke with a Native American. I want peace in Palisrael but I can garentee that we wont see it in our lifetime as long as we turn a blind eye to what amounts to a jewish manifest destiny in Israel.

Even Lebenon and Iran has a jewish population. Did they build a wall? You can rationalize according to a common denominator and demonize the pals all day long but, at the end of the day, you really are no better than Andrew Jackson giving the US a trail of tears.

feel free to call me a jew hating antisemite for not automatically falling to my knees to suck some zionist cock, Jillian. I don't condone rockets fired into Israel, but just as our nation REACTED to 9/11 so to will other people who feel threatened. The treatment of pals since the CREATION of israel isnt rocket science.


by the way.. it's pretty lame to demonize muslims who talk about allah when the whole premise of Israel being where it is falls directly on the jewish legend of a burning bush god walkie talkie. If there were no common OT bond with christianity there would be no Israel.

 

[Shogun]

Arabs not Jews caused the "palastinian" refuge problem. Arabs not Jews kept that problem alive all these years.

yea yea.. I know.. they were also all sent by the lord of darkness, bealzebub, to kill jews too. Every pal infant gets their marching order directly from the morning star, himself.. You know.. just to keep us all busy until that judgement day party..


I hear those pesky fucking injuns also caused manifest destiny too.


dont EVEN get me started on women who dress like tramps and then get raped!

 

[GHook93]

There are a LOT of people that hate Jews, they can not admit it, that would be politically incorrect, so they make up bullshit arguments and support terrorists because they are anti Jewish.

I love how a lot of them LOVE the UN, but when it comes to Israel and the fact the UN approved the creation of the Country they claim it was some how illegal, immoral or just flat wrong.

The best ones are the ones that INSIST the Arab nations didn't threaten the Arabs living there to flee or be killed as collaberators. Or that the Jews secretly started every war just to grab land.

Israel bends over backwards to appease the Arabs and it is never enough. The Arabs screw themselves and it is the Jews fault. Arabs keep fellow Arabs as refugees in squalid camps for decades and it is the Jews fault. Arab nations force these squatters out of their countries because they are insane mass murderers ( created by theses same countries) that threaten the stability and viability of those countries while demanding Israel take them in.

Do not forget the fact that 2 Arab countries, Egypt and Jordon, had a 20 year window in which to give the Palestinians their own country. Yet they didn't! They chose to occupy Gaza and the West Bank respectful and use them as bases to launch terrorist opperations (Gaza to launch terrorist ops against Israel - well I guess few things never change).

Why did they choose to occupy instead of grant the independence they now so hyprocritcally proclaim they support? Because they could give a damn about the Palestinian cause. They care more about eliminating the Jews, than creating a Palestinian state.

 

[Shogun]

riiiight...


because ther was also a torrent of western nations with their hands in the air hoping to have israel carved out of THEIR territory too...


I garentee that no pals would be out killing jews if Isreal were located in TEXAS.


no, sir.. then it would be TEXANS out killing jews.

ps, doesn't all the "boohoo, everyone hates jews and just wants us dead and that's the ONLY possible reason for violence" get old?

ever?

 

[GHook93]

You may realistically consider that I am veminously Anti-zionist but not anti-sematic or anti-Jew. It is th screwed up zionist goverment I dispise. that government would be best disposed of., and the world would be much better off.

I am also somewhat anti-frog.( plus definitely anti-BUSH)

No appologies for any of the three.

Always the claim of anti-semites is to claim they are anti-zionist. Anti-zionism claim is most cases is a more PC way mask their racism. In some cases anti-zionist doesn't translate into anti-semitism, but in most cases (probably 90%) most anti-zionist use it to mask their anti-semitism. You my friend 100% fall in the later category.

What you are guilty of is the new anti-semitism as laid out by EUMC. They should know since anti-semitism is and has always been rabid in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism

In September 2004, the European Commission against Racism and Intolerance, a part of the Council of Europe, called on its member nations to ensure that anti-racist criminal law covers antisemitism.

In 2005, the EUMC offered a definition of antisemitism to enable a standard definition to be used for data collection by RAXEN, [93] one that the British government was urged to adopt by a 2006 all-party parliamentary inquiry.

"Antisemitism is a certain perception of Jews, which may be expressed as hatred towards Jews. Rhetorical and physical manifestations of antisemitism are directed towards Jews and non-Jewish individuals and/or their property, towards Jewish community institutions and religious facilities."

The instruction attached some contemporary examples which "could, taking into account the overall context, include but are not limited to":

(1) Denying the Jewish people the right to self-determination, e.g. by claiming that the existence of a state of Israel is a racist endeavor;
(2) Applying double standards by requiring of Israel a behavior not expected or demanded of any other democratic nation;
(3) Using the symbols and images associated with classic anti-Semitism (e.g. claims of Jews killing Jesus or blood libel) to characterize Israel or Israelis;
(4) Drawing comparisons of contemporary Israeli policy to that of the Nazis;
(5) Holding Jews collectively responsible for actions of the State of Israel.

How many are attributes of yourself? Definitely 1, 2 & 3. I haven't read enough of your posts, but probably 4 & 5 fit you also.

 

[GHook93]

riiiight...


because ther was also a torrent of western nations with their hands in the air hoping to have israel carved out of THEIR territory too...


I garentee that no pals would be out killing jews if Isreal were located in TEXAS.


no, sir.. then it would be TEXANS out killing jews.

ps, doesn't all the "boohoo, everyone hates jews and just wants us dead and that's the ONLY possible reason for violence" get old?

ever?

First learn to spell Israel correctly. I know it sound like "Isreal," but its Israel.
Second, the Jews were there well before the Pals, Arabs and Muslims. Both have a valid claim to the lands and both should be given a state. That was what the just partition plan called for. Yet the Arabs attacked and LOST and the Jews get blamed for not dieing, like they did in the Nazi extermination and concentration camps!

 

[Shogun]

fuck you.

If I thought it were that important to impress people with how well I spelll ISREAL then I might take your advice. Since your advice means two things, jack and shit, I'll ask you to put more neurons to work on the thread topic inead of acting like the Sherlock Holmes of the Spelling Bee.

and I'll remind you that the Natives in North America just said NO to the formation of new nations from their land too. Using the reaction to invasion as a springboard of rationalized zionist nationalism is just as horrible now as it was when whitey moved west and Germans were baking jews in their Final Solution pie.

Ignoring the reality of Pal contempt makes you just as guilty as anyone who you'd apply the standard issue anti-semite label to.

 

[doniston]

Always the claim of anti-semites is to claim they are anti-zionist. Anti-zionism claim is most cases is a more PC way mask their racism. In some cases anti-zionist doesn't translate into anti-semitism, but in most cases (probably 90%) most anti-zionist use it to mask their anti-semitism. You my friend 100% fall in the later category.

What you are guilty of is the new anti-semitism as laid out by EUMC. They should know since anti-semitism is and has always been rabid in Europe.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_antisemitism


How many are attributes of yourself? Definitely 1, 2 & 3. I haven't read enough of your posts, but probably 4 & 5 fit you also.

Absolutely none. I do not equate Jews to Zionists. tho I agreed that some jews are also Zionist Your's is simply a supposition that all peoples think the same. I do not. You jump to a great deal of self imposed conclusions.

 

[doniston]

First learn to spell Israel correctly. I know it sound like "Isreal," but its Israel.
Second, the Jews were there well before the Pals, Arabs and Muslims. Both have a valid claim to the lands and both should be given a state. That was what the just partition plan called for. Yet the Arabs attacked and LOST and the Jews get blamed for not dieing, like they did in the Nazi extermination and concentration camps!

That is so idiotic it isn't worth commenting upon.

 

[GHook93]

Absolutely none. I do not equate Jews to Zionists. tho I agreed that some jews are also Zionist Your's is simply a supposition that all peoples think the same. I do not. You jump to a great deal of self imposed conclusions.

That is probably because you are uneducated and probably don't know any Jews. You make blanket assumptions from you see on the tube. Most American Jews place their first loyalties with the US and then with Israel.

 

[GHook93]

Arabs not Jews caused the "palastinian" refuge problem. Arabs not Jews kept that problem alive all these years.

Exactly, but more specifically it was the Egyptians and Jordanians that were the main culprits. They were the main aggressors in the '48, '53 and '67, which in fact caused the refugee problem. They are also the ones that decided to occupy Gaza and the West Bank from '48 to '67 instead of granting the Palestinians independence in accordance with the Parition Plan.

 

[Shogun]

well hey.. Iguess THAT justifies treating pals like shit and rationalizing away theirvalid perception of being marginalized for the sake of a jewish state.

ole andy jackson felt the same way.

good for you.

 

[Ruby]

That is probably because you are uneducated and probably don't know any Jews. You make blanket assumptions from you see on the tube. Most American Jews place their first loyalties with the US and then with Israel.

It sounds like you are making an assumption, a bigoted one at that. We are to assume a particular political ideology and support for a particular nation based on their religious affiliations?

I was also not aware that that Jews were "americans", you seem to be discounting the rest of the jews around the globe...or dont they count?

 

[Ruby]

Exactly, but more specifically it was the Egyptians and Jordanians that were the main culprits. They were the main aggressors in the '48, '53 and '67, which in fact caused the refugee problem. They are also the ones that decided to occupy Gaza and the West Bank from '48 to '67 instead of granting the Palestinians independence in accordance with the Parition Plan.

Firstly its not for Egypt or Jordan to replace what the Israelis stole, its not on other nations to make up for the harm created by Israel and the settling zionists.

Also, its not true that they were the main aggressors, the war had started well before 1948 and their soveriegnty was being violated by a more powerful nation (britain) and they, as a region, were defending themselves against the aggression.

http://www.democracynow.org/finkelstein-benami.shtml

SHLOMO BEN-AMI: Well, for all practical purposes, a state existed before it was officially created in 1948. The uniqueness of the Zionist experience, as it were, was in that the Zionists were able, under the protection of the mandate, of the British mandate, to set up the essentials of a state — the institutions of a state, political parties, a health system, running democracy for Jews, obviously — before the state was created, so the transition to statehood was a declaration, basically, and it came about in the middle of two stages of war, a civil war between the Israelis and the Jews and the Arabs in Palestine and then an invasion by the Arab armies. The point that I made with regard to the war is that the country, to the mythology that existed and exists, continues to exist mainly among Israelis and Jews, is that Israel was not in a military disadvantage when the war took place. The Arab armies were disoriented and confused, and they did not put in the battlefield the necessary forces.

So, in 1948, what was born was a state, but also original superpower in many ways. We have prevailed over the invading Arab armies and the local population, which was practically evicted from Palestine, from the state of Israel, from what became the state of Israel, and this is how the refugee problem was born. Interestingly, the Arabs in 1948 lost a war that was, as far as they were concerned, lost already in 1936-1939, because they have fought against the British mandate and the Israeli or the Jewish Yishuv, the Jewish pre-state, and they were defeated then, so they came to the hour of trial in 1948 already as a defeated nation. That is, the War of 1948 was won already in 1936, and they had no chance to win the war in 1948. They were already a defeated nation when they faced the Israeli superpower that was emerging in that year.

They had been fighting for their self determination rights and against mass immigration from EUROPEAN jews. Israel was not at any sort of military disadvantage and some weak and heroic victim by a loooong shot. They were the aggressors there to REPLACE the current population which means genocide. You must destroy the current population and wipe them out of existence to replace them.


http://www.cactus48.com/cause.html

Thus, my response to the query "Why don't you stick to a 'Jewish' cause" is that seeking justice for the Palestinians is, in fact, the Jewish cause because that is where Jews can be most valuable. When major crimes are being committed in my name, if I want to be able to look at myself in the mirror in the morning, I don't want to see the reflection of a Jew who displays "malignant indifference" while Sharon uses methods of "barbarism" against the Palestinians. Rather, I want to see the reflection of an ordinary decent Jew who reacts to Israeli crimes by saying loudly and clearly, "Stop! You do not speak or act in my name'."

It is downright bigotry to assume all jews condone the actions of Israel and are so racist themselves that they support the annihliation and genocide of the palestinian people. It is downright bigotry to assume they have no sense of justice or morality for people outside their own religion.

 

[Ruby]

First learn to spell Israel correctly. I know it sound like "Isreal," but its Israel.
Second, the Jews were there well before the Pals, Arabs and Muslims. Both have a valid claim to the lands and both should be given a state. That was what the just partition plan called for. Yet the Arabs attacked and LOST and the Jews get blamed for not dieing, like they did in the Nazi extermination and concentration camps!

Also not true! Israel was created by mass immigration from EUROPE. They were EUROPEANS and not natives of the area.

THE religious connection is there for Islam, christianity and Judiasm...but none can claim to be the indiginous population. Religion isnt the same as ethnicity *and ethnicity is simply where the majority of your ancestors came from*. In the case of european jews, that would trace to EUROPE and not in the middle east at all. For Palestinians, it would trace to the VERY region they have been living in.

Mass immigrating europeans (no matter what their religion) dont have any legitimate claim to that land....it belonged to the people who have been living there for generations (thousands of years).

 

[jillian]

Also not true! Israel was created by mass immigration from EUROPE. They were EUROPEANS and not natives of the area.

THE religious connection is there for Islam, christianity and Judiasm...but none can claim to be the indiginous population. Religion isnt the same as ethnicity *and ethnicity is simply where the majority of your ancestors came from*. In the case of european jews, that would trace to EUROPE and not in the middle east at all. For Palestinians, it would trace to the VERY region they have been living in.

Mass immigrating europeans (no matter what their religion) dont have any legitimate claim to that land....it belonged to the people who have been living there for generations (thousands of years).

Oh no!!! The horror!! Mass immigration from EUROPE?!?!?!?! OMG! OMG! OMG!

You mean as opposed to the U.S.? Should I be packing my bags for Belarus or waiting for us to be governed by Native Americans?

Oh right... only applies to Israel. Sheesh!

 

[Shogun]

Oh no!!! The horror!! Mass immigration from EUROPE?!?!?!?! OMG! OMG! OMG!

You mean as opposed to the U.S.? Should I be packing my bags for Belarus or waiting for us to be governed by Native Americans?

Oh right... only applies to Israel. Sheesh!

Do you think that those of us willing to acknowledge the shittiness of the treatment of the pals would stand by and say nothing to adrew jacksons awsome plan for HIS pesky fucking natives?


really, Jillian.. this "must only apply to jews" shit is REALLY old.

Why don't you stop tapdancing around the standard label application and just call us fucking jew hating anti-semites instead of trying to keep your ad hominem hands clean? It's pretty fucking transparent anyway. Have the balls to call us your version of "****** lover" and be done with it.