CDZ Islamification of The West

[Dhara]

Brilliant Clayton--

I wish I had the ability to recognize a logical fallacy instead of just getting pissed off.

Dhara

 

[Drummond]

No one is attacking Christians on this thread. Muslims are being attacked on the thread and some are pointing out they aren't all bad people that should be hated or feared.

Untrue, Christians were attacked. I did not claim they are all bad, nor said I hated or feared them.

I don't want anyone attacked. I just oppose fascism in all it's forms. Whether it's Islamic, or anti-islamic.

Islamic fascism is particularly virulent, and as all of their terrorist attacks prove, also particularly deadly and destructive. It therefore makes sense to concentrate on opposing that particular manifestation of it ... don't you think ?

 

[Yousaidwhat]

Thanks Dale,

My point is this. Since the UK allows Muslims to live in it's borders they ought to be treated the same as any other citizens.

They are already there. What's your solution?

Dhara

Demand they follow the laws of the country NOT islam.

They do follow the law like every other citizen..

The Islamophobes want ALL Muslims out of America. Then they won't be satisfied and it will be the Jews, the Gays, the Buddhists.

Not so true. The islamophobes you refer to are far and few between. The majority do not want all Muslims out of the US, but do expect respect and return that respect in kind. There are concerns of radical teachings and the possibility of attacks from extremists.

There is at least 1 mosque under the watchful eye of the authorities.

I am in an area with many Muslims within the community. In close proximity are the Jewish communities as well as the Hispanic community and the Asian community. These communities tend to self segregate.

As long as our Muslim communities understand , as well as the other communities understand that we have a Constitution and laws, that they must adhere to and that their laws and Sharia law is not the dominant law, there have not been, nor will there be complications.

What we do expect is that those coming here are vetted first. Before they hit the shores. Accusations, like racism and islamophobia only complicate the situation. IMHO, that is where the problem starts.

There are going to be questions and concerns. To silence those who ask these questions and express these concerns, or to label them as bigots and racists will only complicate the coexistence and further erode any trust and confidence.

To then accuse these same people of not being satisfied and that Jews, or homosexuals or Buddhist
will be next is ludicrous. You have already silenced debate and condemned and criticized those with these valid questions and concerns.

Until the accusations are stopped and subject is discussed, rationally, then you are not going anywhere with this subject.

 

[Yousaidwhat]

How do you think the US can best counter the efforts extremist religions may try to gain power in the US? Right now we have far more to fear from extremist Christians than Muslims in America.

You have nothing to fear from the majority of Christians in America. These extremist Christians you refer to are a tiny minority, just as tiny as the extremist minority using the religion of Islam to justify killing.

Where did you get this notion that American Christians are to be feared as extremists. Do you think all Christians are Timothy McVeigh's, waiting for the moment to kill in the name of religion? They may use Christianity, but I don't consider them Christians. They are extremists.
That is a bold statement. I'm an agnostic and find that statement an absurd and outright lie.

 

[pillars]

No one is attacking Christians on this thread. Muslims are being attacked on the thread and some are pointing out they aren't all bad people that should be hated or feared.

Untrue, Christians were attacked. I did not claim they are all bad, nor said I hated or feared them.

I don't want anyone attacked. I just oppose fascism in all it's forms. Whether it's Islamic, or anti-islamic.

Islamic fascism is particularly virulent, and as all of their terrorist attacks prove, also particularly deadly and destructive. It therefore makes sense to concentrate on opposing that particular manifestation of it ... don't you think ?

Are all islamics fascist in your book?

 

[saveliberty]

“Why would any Western nation want to allow itself to be subjected to Islamification?”

This is a loaded question fallacy; it fails because any response to the ‘question’ compels the responder to agree with the false premise.

“Islamification of The West”

This is a straw man fallacy, where a lie is contrived in an effort to misrepresent the opponent’s position, and then attack the lie contrived (straw man) claiming ‘victory.’

In this case the lie is ‘Islamification’ of the West, where no such thing is occurring.

"THOUSANDS of Muslim men..”

This fails as a hasty generalization fallacy, the acts of the few are not ‘representative’ of the whole, nor is it ‘proof’ of ‘Islamification,’ in the West or anywhere else.

The premise of the thread fails as a consequence of these fallacies, where no ‘debate’ is warranted.

As to the first false assessment, if there was little to no Islamic influence and now it has begun to grow the process is beginning. Cananda has accepted Sharia Law to a degree, so it is more than fair to say Islam is on the move in the West. So no fallacy there.

On the same basis the second fallacy is not met either. Further we see attacks on the US based on a form of Islam.

Finally, opponents wish to deny a problem based on it only being from a minority, yet run to that same defense when citing another religious group. You cannot use it in one instance and deny in the other.

These incorrectly applied debate points are meant to do nothing more than silence opponents which is in opposition to what our Constitution protects, yet you hide behind it for your own protection.

 

[saveliberty]

Brilliant Clayton--

I wish I had the ability to recognize a logical fallacy instead of just getting pissed off.

Dhara

That's okay, Clayton doesn't have the ability either.

 

[OldLady]

OP

Are you a PEGIDA member?

A country ANY country has the RIGHT to limit immigration as set by the people OF that country. Unless you live there you have no say nor a right to such.

Well, I sure don't want to see that mob over here. I appreciate Dhara explaining who to watch out for.

 

[Mac1958]

I think the passionate tolerance the lefties here are showing of a religion is very nice, impressive. Indeed.

Beautifully illustrating my thread: The Regressive Left and Islam -- What is happening here?
.

 

[pillars]

I fear fascism. It's ugly head is in the OP.

Do you fear theocracy?

Not if its Islamic.

This is not an accurate assessment of Dhara's beliefs. She doesn't like the idea of any kind of theocracy. She just chooses not to vilify all Muslims because of the actions of a few.

Similarly, I am quite close to several friends who are Muslim. One is a sheriff's deputy who keeps a prayer rug in his office and prays several times a day. His entire career has been spent protecting and serving our community. He is married to a woman who is Latino and Catholic and speaks fluent Spanish so often does outreach to the Latino community as well. He is a very good man. I think that many Muslims in the west do not want theocracy, in fact, they came here to get away from dogmatic Islamic fundamentalists, who they perceive to be scary and dangerous.

We also have quite a few black Muslims in our community, and although I know that some aspects of their faith are anti-white, we all somehow manage to get along.

For the record, I am not at all tolerant of Muslims who commit crimes of any type. But I am somehow able to differentiate between those people and the majority, which seems difficult for some of you, who obviously have a different standard for your own religion.

 

[JakeStarkey]

The subject of Islam in the West should be able to be debated unless the OP itself is not "Clean." Please remove this OP to politics or religion.

 

[saveliberty]

The OP is clean.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

Islamification means equality goes out the window. Seems like there were gays killed and hung out as reminders of how that would be tolerated by ISIS. If it were simply a matter of celebrating a birth and religion it would be one thing. This comes with a whole set of anti western civilization aspects. Sorry Dhara, you are going to have to choose Islam or LBGT on this one, not both.

Islamification - by that definition is not occurring - it's all fear-mongering and xenophobia. You do not have to choose Islam or LBGT, you can chose both as long as they obey the laws of the land, which are based on western values. Christians have to do it, even if they don't like it

Exactly. The OP argument is the same argument use in the anti-gay movementt. LGBT are a threat to the UK and should not be allowed equal rights.

This OP is about Islam in The West and the ultimate ramifications for Western nations.

It's not about Christians, Buddhists, Hindu's, Jews, Sikh's.

I'm only responding to responses pertaining to the OP, I won't respond to any of the deflections from people who want to make this a discussion about anything except Islam in The West and the ultimate ramifications for Western nations.

I'll be making other comments, I'm returning to this thread now, I got distracted elsewhere last night and was unable to respond.

 

[Coyote]

"Islamification" is a bugaboo of weak minds. It's a boogeyman to stoke jingoistic fears.

Why should anyone be upset that 5,000 Muslims had a march in London?

Could it be because their culture beheads women for being raped? Because they throw gay people off tall buildings? Because they see men raping male children as simple "play"? Because they blow themselves and others up on a regular basis? Because women are forced to cover themselves or face being stoned to death??

They have a right to have their culture in THEIR lands. That's between them and their God.

Our lands....and OUR culture...are ours. They aren't interested in assimilation. They want to change OUR culture to THEIR culture.

And THEIR culture is evil, violent and oppressive. Sorry....it just is. Our culture is simply better than theirs.

Who's culture is that?

Do American Muslims call for beheading raped women? Do Canadian Muslims throw gay people off tall buildings? What are you talking about?

Our culture has it's issues with domestic violence, child abuse and molestation, human trafficking. Where our culture is superior is that it's people (Christians, Muslims, Jews, and more) value a system where human rights and freedoms are protected. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran etc has no such protections.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

The subject of Islam in the West should be able to be debated unless the OP itself is not "Clean." Please remove this OP to politics or religion.

If you read earlier in the thread, the OP has been declared clean.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

Islamification means equality goes out the window. Seems like there were gays killed and hung out as reminders of how that would be tolerated by ISIS. If it were simply a matter of celebrating a birth and religion it would be one thing. This comes with a whole set of anti western civilization aspects. Sorry Dhara, you are going to have to choose Islam or LBGT on this one, not both.

Islamification - by that definition is not occurring - it's all fear-mongering and xenophobia. You do not have to choose Islam or LBGT, you can chose both as long as they obey the laws of the land, which are based on western values. Christians have to do it, even if they don't like it

Exactly. The OP argument is the same argument use in the anti-gay movementt. LGBT are a threat to the UK and should not be allowed equal rights.

Absolutely ridiculous comparison, it's not the same "argument", sorry what IS that "argument" exactly?

If you want to discuss Islam's views on LGBT we can....am I allowed to post pictures though of gays being thrown off tall buildings and gays being hanged 20 feet in the air from industrial cranes?

Do you think Islam, being so anti-women's rights is going to be all happy clappy with LGBT people? Do you think Islam has one rule for Middle Eastern nations and a nice happy clappy rule for Western nations?

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

"Islamification" is a bugaboo of weak minds. It's a boogeyman to stoke jingoistic fears.

Why should anyone be upset that 5,000 Muslims had a march in London?

Could it be because their culture beheads women for being raped? Because they throw gay people off tall buildings? Because they see men raping male children as simple "play"? Because they blow themselves and others up on a regular basis? Because women are forced to cover themselves or face being stoned to death??

They have a right to have their culture in THEIR lands. That's between them and their God.

Our lands....and OUR culture...are ours. They aren't interested in assimilation. They want to change OUR culture to THEIR culture.

And THEIR culture is evil, violent and oppressive. Sorry....it just is. Our culture is simply better than theirs.

Who's culture is that?

Do American Muslims call for beheading raped women? Do Canadian Muslims throw gay people off tall buildings? What are you talking about?

Our culture has it's issues with domestic violence, child abuse and molestation, human trafficking. Where our culture is superior is that it's people (Christians, Muslims, Jews, and more) value a system where human rights and freedoms are protected. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran etc has no such protections.

I think he means Islamic culture.

 

[Lucy Hamilton]

I fear fascism. It's ugly head is in the OP.

Do you fear theocracy?

Not if its Islamic.

The Left's love-in with Islamism is exceptionally disturbing and pretty insane actually....I often wonder how many Leftists have already converted to Islam, they seem to be promoting Islam at the drop of a hat and the others just follow like sheep, even though others who haven't swallowed the Propaganda know that Islam isn't compatible with Western values.

I'll elaborate about this later.

 

[Coyote]

Thanks Dale,

My point is this. Since the UK allows Muslims to live in it's borders they ought to be treated the same as any other citizens.

They are already there. What's your solution?

Dhara

Demand they follow the laws of the country NOT islam.

They do follow the law like every other citizen..

The Islamophobes want ALL Muslims out of America. Then they won't be satisfied and it will be the Jews, the Gays, the Buddhists.

Not so true. The islamophobes you refer to are far and few between. The majority do not want all Muslims out of the US, but do expect respect and return that respect in kind. There are concerns of radical teachings and the possibility of attacks from extremists.

The irony here, is they have that and have always had that. The American Muslim community has been no different than any other religious community in that respect.

There is at least 1 mosque under the watchful eye of the authorities.

I am in an area with many Muslims within the community. In close proximity are the Jewish communities as well as the Hispanic community and the Asian community. These communities tend to self segregate.

As long as our Muslim communities understand , as well as the other communities understand that we have a Constitution and laws, that they must adhere to and that their laws and Sharia law is not the dominant law, there have not been, nor will there be complications.

That's the key, as well as the crux of the matter. The "other communities". Most arguments exclude that bit and focus on Islam only. Even in this sentence - it's about "Sharia" (most people who talk about it don't really know what it is) - instead of Biblical Law or Jewish Law - all of which have a role to play in communities who choose to follow their religious principles in certain civil matters. But only Islam is singled out with special legislation to inact "anti-Sharia" laws.

What we do expect is that those coming here are vetted first. Before they hit the shores. Accusations, like racism and islamophobia only complicate the situation. IMHO, that is where the problem starts.

Everyone should be vetted.

There are going to be questions and concerns. To silence those who ask these questions and express these concerns, or to label them as bigots and racists will only complicate the coexistence and further erode any trust and confidence.

To then accuse these same people of not being satisfied and that Jews, or homosexuals or Buddhist
will be next is ludicrous. You have already silenced debate and condemned and criticized those with these valid questions and concerns.

Until the accusations are stopped and subject is discussed, rationally, then you are not going anywhere with this subject.

When you single out one entire religious group for different treatment then those concerns become valid.

 

[Coyote]

"Islamification" is a bugaboo of weak minds. It's a boogeyman to stoke jingoistic fears.

Why should anyone be upset that 5,000 Muslims had a march in London?

Could it be because their culture beheads women for being raped? Because they throw gay people off tall buildings? Because they see men raping male children as simple "play"? Because they blow themselves and others up on a regular basis? Because women are forced to cover themselves or face being stoned to death??

They have a right to have their culture in THEIR lands. That's between them and their God.

Our lands....and OUR culture...are ours. They aren't interested in assimilation. They want to change OUR culture to THEIR culture.

And THEIR culture is evil, violent and oppressive. Sorry....it just is. Our culture is simply better than theirs.

Who's culture is that?

Do American Muslims call for beheading raped women? Do Canadian Muslims throw gay people off tall buildings? What are you talking about?

Our culture has it's issues with domestic violence, child abuse and molestation, human trafficking. Where our culture is superior is that it's people (Christians, Muslims, Jews, and more) value a system where human rights and freedoms are protected. Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Iran etc has no such protections.

I think he means Islamic culture.

But there isn't a single Islamic culture - it varies according the the parts of the world their followers live in.