CDZ Islam and Muslims

In your opinion:
  • What are the primary reasons Muslims have been largely unsuccessful in establishing within the minds of most Americans that diversity of religiosity and practice exists among Muslims just as it does among Christians and Jews? Why has nobody overcome these obstacles?

    I found it astounding that the misconceptions have not been displaced because Americans are, in general, receptive to (gullible for) pretty much anything that's marketed to them. I mean really...Americans made millionaires of the folks who "invented"/marketed utter absurdities such as decorated rocks as pets (pet rocks), bug infested seeds as entertainment (jumping beans), DIY communication with supernatural forces/beings (Ouija boards), and weeds as household plants (chia pet).

  • Why has there not been a major push to establish a contextually accurate understanding of Islam among Americans that makes clear to them that Islam simply cannot be considered in the same way one examines Christianity and its adherents? For example:
    • Conceptualising Muslim faith as an inherent monolithic bloc. To most Americans, Islamic religiosity appears to be a one-dimensional construct in ways similar to how one considers self-identified Christians and how they practice their faith. To that end, many Americans may be inclined/willing to assess a Muslim's devotion (extremism in some cases) based on single aspects of expressed Muslim religiosity, e.g. mere belief in Allah, fasting at Ramadan, or surprisingly and myopically, for some, simply one's self-identification as Muslim.
    • Bases for measuring Christian religiosity are often simply translated into Islamic terminology. For instance: “Only those who believe in the Prophet Mohammad can go to heaven”. The original wording of the item developed by Glock to measure Christian religious belief is as follows: “Belief in Jesus Christ as Saviour is absolutely necessary for salvation”. However, unlike Jesus, Mohammad has no divine status. He is seen as a role model for Muslims rather than as somebody to be believed in. In fact, orthodox Muslims are opposed to celebrating Mohammad’s birthday because they perceive such an act as a form of polytheism. In short, a simple translation of indicators from the respective items of other religions can lead to measurement problems and to false interpretations of results.
    • Another example is the use of mosque attendance or membership of a mosque as an indicator for piety in the same way that church attendance is used in the case of Christian religiosity. It is typically thought among American Christians that church attendance is a good indicator for Christian religiosity. Here, religiosity coincides with church attendance. However, in Muslim piety, mosque attendance has a genuinely different role.

      First, it remains highly linked to gender. It is mostly men who go to a mosque, e.g. for the Friday prayer. Second, mosque attendance is not an inherent part of Muslim piety as such. A pious Muslim is connected with Allah in a direct way and does not need the mosque or the Imam as an agent intermediary. Therefore, the mosque has a genuinely different role from that of the church. Furthermore, membership of a mosque is not compulsory as it is in the case of Christianity. Most Muslims, even very pious Muslims, are not formal members of a mosque.
    • A further problem that stems from the translation of items from other religious cultures is that results are often interpreted within the framework of Christian or Western concepts of religiosity. One example that illustrates this problem is the common misinterpretation of a central finding that can be found in many studies: Pointing to the strong and stable belief in Allah that is found consistently for the great majority of Muslims Islam is presumed to suffer from religious stagnation which is often interpreted as a lack of social progress and secularization. Moreover, ample Americans are wont to inaccurately interpret agreement on the part of Muslims with central aspects of Islam as an endorsement of orthodoxy.

      In Western approaches, orthodoxy is often thought of as the extent to which the traditional supernatural doctrines are acknowledged. However, this is not true in the case of Islamic religiosity. In contrast, being faithful is self-evident and natural within the Muslim population. This can be considered to hold true almost universally and represents an aspect shared by the great majority of Muslims. Secular Muslims as well as very pious Muslims can show the same degree of Islamic belief but may differ concerning other aspects of Muslim religiosity. Therefore, we are unlikely to find much variance when using indicators like the belief in Allah. However, a history of consistently strong belief in Allah does not mean that religious dynamics within Islam are absent. The focus on and expectation of familiar processes well known to exist in Christianity obstruct the view on other dynamics and variation that go beyond a traditional Christian outlook.
    • A fourth problem is the use of indicators measuring more than Muslim religiosity. Many items are in fact political in nature and can be traced back to a growing interest in political Islam and Islamism. For instance, the attitude toward the morality of Western societies could be interesting as a possible correlate of Muslim religiosity, but should not form an integral part of measuring religiosity. Such an approach leads to a mix of several aspects somehow associated with Islam that fails to measure Muslim religiosity systematically based on a theoretical framework.

Some might wonder what pragmatic relevance exists for the above question and illustrations. For those folks, I'll offer the most easily grasped correlate: the semantics of "radical Islamic terrorism." If it be that blowing up things and shooting people be considered radical behavior, that the actor be Islamic is not terribly relevant. If instead the behavior be causally attributable to "radical Muslim/Islamist" beliefs, it becomes necessary to understand whether and how the nature and extent of Muslims' devotion varies so that we can implement equitably the proscriptions/protections to counter the "radical Islamists" behavior.

It is thus essential to make it clear, somehow, to Americans in general (a great many of whom have never met a Muslim and fewer still of whom have never ventured outside the U.S., much less to a Muslim country) that a highly religious, greatly orthodox, Muslim need not at all be a "radical Muslim." Muslims must successfully make the case that just as there are Christians who hold the exact same theological beliefs as the Orange Volunteers, Aryan Nation, or the Christian Identity Movement but who would never undertake in the name of God the same deeds as do members of those groups, so too are there Muslims (most of them in fact) who don't cotton to ISIS, Boko Haram, Al-Qaeda's, etc. practices, even though they share the same theological beliefs and are no less committed to/servants of God.​
 
Another fun fact about muslims.

Muslim men are Not allowed to wear gold jewelry. Gold jewelry and gold items are only worn by women.

Muslim men wear silver. My watch and band are silver. So is my wedding ring and belt buckle. I will not even wear a watch that has gold dials or numbers. (platinum, stainless steel, being silver colored is also acceptable)

Also, muslim men do not wear any clothing items made from silk. Silk is strictly worn by women. I like to wear a nice tie with my suit, but most are made from silk. So I have to buy custom make non silk ties. ...... :cool:
 
Last edited:
.

I've never known a Muslim well enough to ask questions like this without feeling like it was rude or invasive, so I appreciate the opportunity. I hope I'm not nitpicky. I'm just curious if I'd be able to stay out of trouble if I made the effort. Islam is often presented in a way that makes me feel like I could try my best to live right and still end up stoned to death.
Tresha, I made this tread for people like you who had questions and were curious about certain aspects of Islam and muslims.

In essence, a muslim marriage and family is basically not much different than a traditional American marriage and family. Both the husband and the wife have separate but unique roles in the marriage. They are a team, and the center piece of the home is God.

People seem to get all worked up watching the hyperbolic media and think Islam is all about men beating and stoning women for the slightest infraction.

I would venture to say that the rate of domestic violence among muslim American's is much lower that the average rate for other groups. Besides, have you ever herd of a woman being stoned here in the U.S.?

As muslims, both men and women, we just try to do the best we can. And ask Allah to forgive us when we fail. ....... :cool:
 
I will entertain legitimate questions about Islam and muslims.

They will be answered from a Sunni muslim perspective.

Questions I deem to be attacks or disingenuous will be ignored. ..... :cool:
Ok here is my list.

Feel free to ignore any that you feel are personal and too controversial then:

1 - Do Muslims really believe there was a Muhammad?

2 - How can Muslims believe in a book that is purely a childish rant?

3 - How do Muslims deal with the plagiarisms from Judaism and Christianity in the Quran?

4 - Aren't modern Muslims just like modern Jews in being wrapped up in their religion only for the sake of tradition?

5 - How can anyone take the schism between Sunni and Shia seriously? Who gives a ratz azz if the imam is related to Muhammad's uncle or cousin or not?

6 - Do Muslims ever regret that their religion does not contain a phrase as eloquent as "render to Caesar that which is Caesar's"?

7 - Don't Muslim men empathize with Muslim women in Saudi Arabia ?!

8 - Are or are not Muslims ashamed of the murders committed in the name of Allah in the Middle East?

9 - Why do Muslims hate their ancient cousins the Jews so much that they won't let the Jews have their own land back in peace? Don't tell me it is not their land. We all know whose land it was and therefore still is.
 
.

I've never known a Muslim well enough to ask questions like this without feeling like it was rude or invasive, so I appreciate the opportunity. I hope I'm not nitpicky. I'm just curious if I'd be able to stay out of trouble if I made the effort. Islam is often presented in a way that makes me feel like I could try my best to live right and still end up stoned to death.
Tresha, I made this tread for people like you who had questions and were curious about certain aspects of Islam and muslims.

In essence, a muslim marriage and family is basically not much different than a traditional American marriage and family. Both the husband and the wife have separate but unique roles in the marriage. They are a team, and the center piece of the home is God.

People seem to get all worked up watching the hyperbolic media and think Islam is all about men beating and stoning women for the slightest infraction.

I would venture to say that the rate of domestic violence among muslim American's is much lower that the average rate for other groups. Besides, have you ever herd of a woman being stoned here in the U.S.?

As muslims, both men and women, we just try to do the best we can. And ask Allah to forgive us when we fail. ....... :cool:
You should really say husband and "wives" -- plural.
 
Another fun fact about muslims.

Muslim men are Not allowed to wear gold jewelry. Gold jewelry and gold items are only worn by women.

Muslim men wear silver. My watch and band are silver. So is my wedding ring and belt buckle. I will not even wear a watch that has gold dials or numbers. (platinum being silver colored is also acceptable)

Also, muslim men do not wear any clothing items made from silk. Silk is strictly worn by women. I like to wear a nice tie with my suit, but most are made from silk. So I have to buy custom make non silk ties. ...... :cool:
The ancient Spartans wore no jewelry at all and only prized steel -- which in their day could only be had from meteorites. Gold and silver was effeminate to the ancient Spartans and they had no use for it.

Ergo my Omega is stainless steel.
 
In your opinion:
  • What are the primary reasons Muslims have been largely unsuccessful in establishing within the minds of most Americans that diversity of religiosity and practice exists among Muslims just as it does among Christians and Jews? Why has nobody overcome these obstacles?
  • In my opinion it boils down to who owns and controls the media.
And that would overwhelmingly be the Jews.

They have a vested interest in paint everything Islamic and everyone muslim in a negative light.

It all revolves around the theme of keeping Israel seen as the good guy and Islam/muslims the bad guy. And that meme is pounded into the American psyche 24/7/365. ...... :cool:
 
Is there anywhere in the Koran that suggest to follow these laws/rules about maiming the physical body of an offender spiritually verses applying them carnally? Also is there anything in there that says this is for personal beliefs (i.e. Jesus a personal savior not to be forced on another)?
Not quite sure what you are asking?

But muslims do not believe in "original sin".....so we have no need for a personal savior. ..... :cool:
Law and consequences, if a person sins lets say adultery in this case. To me that is a sin that affects the two parties involved. For a Christian if it is adultery against God that is where punishment lies.

The sin and judgement thereof remains with the spirit of God within (breath of life that created the living soul). For a more mature Christian they know that the stoning is a spiritual stoning and the person is being given over to the sin via self subjection. i.e. a human acts like a heathen gets hooked on watching porn, crack, whatever and has turned their back on the spirit of God within that piece of conscience within that tells the human this is wrong. The human knows the conduct is unbecoming but does the act anyhow so spiritually the human is given over to that corrupt spirit and cannot control themselves.

If one sins against the partner in marriage for the flesh/carnal that goes to a case at law in courts or again remains between the parties involved (the couple).

Do you have this explanation of self subjection verses other human trying to enforce a law through violent means anywhere?
Most people don't understand that the Hebrew word for "adultery" in the Tenakh (Hebrew Old Testament) means "wife swapping".
 
In your opinion:
  • What are the primary reasons Muslims have been largely unsuccessful in establishing within the minds of most Americans that diversity of religiosity and practice exists among Muslims just as it does among Christians and Jews? Why has nobody overcome these obstacles?
  • In my opinion it boils down to who owns and controls the media.
And that would overwhelmingly be the Jews.

They have a vested interest in paint everything Islamic and everyone muslim in a negative light.

It all revolves around the theme of keeping Israel seen as the good guy and Islam/muslims the bad guy. And that meme is pounded into the American psyche 24/7/365. ...... :cool:
It would help if the Palestinians would stop blowing up suicide vests and killing Israelis.
 
And (forbidden to you) are married women, except those whom your right hand owns. Such Allah has written for you. Lawful to you beyond all that, is that you can seek using your wealth in marriage and not fornication. So whatever you have enjoyed from them give them their obligated wage. And there is no fault in you in what ever you mutually agree after the obligation. Allah is the Knower, the Wise. (24)
Dani can you give me the origins you use for the word 'wife' and 'woman'.
Most people do not understand that in English particularly Olde English, wife and woman are the same words.

Woman comes from "wife of man".

And man means a hired hand, and comes from manual -- meaning hands.

And fornication is a Latin word which comes from oven or heat, and in Greek this word means prostitution with single unmarried temple priestesses.
 
.

I've never known a Muslim well enough to ask questions like this without feeling like it was rude or invasive, so I appreciate the opportunity. I hope I'm not nitpicky. I'm just curious if I'd be able to stay out of trouble if I made the effort. Islam is often presented in a way that makes me feel like I could try my best to live right and still end up stoned to death.
Tresha, I made this tread for people like you who had questions and were curious about certain aspects of Islam and muslims.

In essence, a muslim marriage and family is basically not much different than a traditional American marriage and family. Both the husband and the wife have separate but unique roles in the marriage. They are a team, and the center piece of the home is God.

People seem to get all worked up watching the hyperbolic media and think Islam is all about men beating and stoning women for the slightest infraction.

I would venture to say that the rate of domestic violence among muslim American's is much lower that the average rate for other groups. Besides, have you ever herd of a woman being stoned here in the U.S.?

As muslims, both men and women, we just try to do the best we can. And ask Allah to forgive us when we fail. ....... :cool:

I've not heard of a stoning in the US. I could likely live under Muslim rules in the US if I were a believer. I am doubtful I could in the ME, but for cultural reasons not religious. I could likely live under Mennonite rules, but doubt I could live under Amish rules. I could not live under Jewish Orthodox rules.

Submission is very different depending on who one submits to. It is nearly impossible to submit to a man I have no respect for or who is just not a good man. Therefore, I would have to be able to NOT marry one I could not submit to. I would have to be able to choose. It has been my experience that if one chooses a good, intelligent man, that man knows his wife's strengths and weaknesses. He will utilize her strengths for the good of the family and not over burden her with responsibilities she handles poorly. Not all men (of any religion) are like that, though. I am sceptical of arranged marriages that require that level of submission but don't think it is common in the West.

Thank you for the thread. Very interesting.
 
1 - Do Muslims really believe there was a Muhammad?

2 - How can Muslims believe in a book that is purely a childish rant?

3 - How do Muslims deal with the plagiarisms from Judaism and Christianity in the Quran?

4 - Aren't modern Muslims just like modern Jews in being wrapped up in their religion only for the sake of tradition?

5 - How can anyone take the schism between Sunni and Shia seriously? Who gives a ratz azz if the imam is related to Muhammad's uncle or cousin or not?

6 - Do Muslims ever regret that their religion does not contain a phrase as eloquent as "render to Caesar that which is Caesar's"?

7 - Don't Muslim men empathize with Muslim women in Saudi Arabia ?!

8 - Are or are not Muslims ashamed of the murders committed in the name of Allah in the Middle East?

9 - Why do Muslims hate their ancient cousins the Jews so much that they won't let the Jews have their own land back in peace? Don't tell me it is not their land. We all know whose land it was and therefore still is.
Please take your Trolling to another thread.

Thank You ...... :cool:
 
In your opinion:
  • What are the primary reasons Muslims have been largely unsuccessful in establishing within the minds of most Americans that diversity of religiosity and practice exists among Muslims just as it does among Christians and Jews? Why has nobody overcome these obstacles?
  • In my opinion it boils down to who owns and controls the media.
And that would overwhelmingly be the Jews.

They have a vested interest in paint everything Islamic and everyone muslim in a negative light.

It all revolves around the theme of keeping Israel seen as the good guy and Islam/muslims the bad guy. And that meme is pounded into the American psyche 24/7/365. ...... :cool:

TY for your reply.

I don't know if I agree or disagree with that theory, but I can see it as plausible, but I don't can't say to what extent that plausibility is probable.
 
Another fun fact about muslims.

Muslim men are Not allowed to wear gold jewelry. Gold jewelry and gold items are only worn by women.

Muslim men wear silver. My watch and band are silver. So is my wedding ring and belt buckle. I will not even wear a watch that has gold dials or numbers. (platinum, stainless steel, being silver colored is also acceptable)

Also, muslim men do not wear any clothing items made from silk. Silk is strictly worn by women. I like to wear a nice tie with my suit, but most are made from silk. So I have to buy custom make non silk ties. ...... :cool:

Trivia doesn't generally capture my attention that much, but what the heck...I've grown to be cognizant of the "four thing" in Chinese culture, so why not this??

Okay...I know in general about the "gold and Muslim men." (Ditto silk.) The tenor of your remarks, however, suggest that perhaps it's the color of the metal and not the nature of the metal that drives the proscription. That's not a distinction I gleaned prior to now. Is it the color or the metal itself? Is brass thus impermissible for Muslim men? Is white gold haram?

I'm asking because as a somewhat avid watch collector, I occasionally get asked for input about watches by a Muslim. I generally suggest something in platinum or steel, and I thought that would pass muster. However, if the color be the driver of the prohibition, it may not. Almost all watches, even pricy platinum cased ones, have brass "guts," albeit that quite often the interior parts are rhodium plated, thus making them appear "silver" when in fact, they are brass. There are also some watches that have gold (white, yellow or rose/pink) plated movements. Then there's the somewhat rarer situation wherein the watch case is hewn from an acceptable substance, but the movement inside is made of gold rather than being plated with it.
 
Okay...I know in general about the "gold and Muslim men." (Ditto silk.) The tenor of your remarks, however, suggest that perhaps it's the color of the metal and not the nature of the metal that drives the proscription. That's not a distinction I gleaned prior to now. Is it the color or the metal itself? Is brass thus impermissible for Muslim men? Is white gold haram?

I'm asking because as a somewhat avid watch collector, I occasionally get asked for input about watches by a Muslim. I generally suggest something in platinum or steel, and I thought that would pass muster. However, if the color be the driver of the prohibition, it may not. Almost all watches, even pricy platinum cased ones, have brass "guts," albeit that quite often the interior parts are rhodium plated, thus making them appear "silver" when in fact, they are brass. There are also some watches that have gold (white, yellow or rose/pink) plated movements. Then there's the somewhat rarer situation wherein the watch case is hewn from an acceptable substance, but the movement inside is made of gold rather than being plated with it.
During the time of the Prophet anything gold was pure gold and silver was solid silver. (even today gulf arabs only deal in 24k gold)

Now things have changed. For instance my "silver" watch is actually a brushed stainless steel Movado.

Today there are several metals which are silver colored and various metals mimicking gold

So it basically boils down to color. If the item is gold or gold colored, then a man should not wear it.

If it's silver or silver colored, then it is ok to be worn by a man.

The color division is part of delineating the boundary between men and women.

Although, women are allowed to wear both gold and silver items. ...... :cool:
 
In your opinion:
  • What are the primary reasons Muslims have been largely unsuccessful in establishing within the minds of most Americans that diversity of religiosity and practice exists among Muslims just as it does among Christians and Jews? Why has nobody overcome these obstacles?
  • In my opinion it boils down to who owns and controls the media.
And that would overwhelmingly be the Jews.

They have a vested interest in paint everything Islamic and everyone muslim in a negative light.

It all revolves around the theme of keeping Israel seen as the good guy and Islam/muslims the bad guy. And that meme is pounded into the American psyche 24/7/365. ...... :cool:
It would help if the Palestinians would stop blowing up suicide vests and killing Israelis.

If it's backed up against a wall and it has teeth, it'll bite.
-- Southern saying​


There's no question that would help. What also would help is Israelis (Israel) desisting with doing things that lead Palestinians to feel that exploding vests and killing Israelis is the only course of action they can take to inspire peaceful discussions, and consequent compromises during those chats, that are committed to arriving at an equitable solution for all parties involved.


A rattlesnake, if cornered will become so angry it will bite itself. That is exactly what the harboring of hate and resentment against others is - a biting of oneself. We think we are harming others in holding these spites and hates, but the deeper harm is to ourselves.
― E. Stanley Jones


Note to the literalist readers:
Do not respond to me with puerile, absolutist/literal interpretations of the quotes.
 
Almost all watches, even pricy platinum cased ones, have brass "guts," albeit that quite often the interior parts are rhodium plated, thus making them appear "silver" when in fact, they are brass. There are also some watches that have gold (white, yellow or rose/pink) plated movements. Then there's the somewhat rarer situation wherein the watch case is hewn from an acceptable substance, but the movement inside is made of gold rather than being plated with it.
I forgot to add that the color and composition of the metals inside the watches movement doesn't matter because they are hidden from view. ..... :cool:
 
Mod Edit: OOPS...someone forgot they were in the CDZ!

hqdefault.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Okay...I know in general about the "gold and Muslim men." (Ditto silk.) The tenor of your remarks, however, suggest that perhaps it's the color of the metal and not the nature of the metal that drives the proscription. That's not a distinction I gleaned prior to now. Is it the color or the metal itself? Is brass thus impermissible for Muslim men? Is white gold haram?

I'm asking because as a somewhat avid watch collector, I occasionally get asked for input about watches by a Muslim. I generally suggest something in platinum or steel, and I thought that would pass muster. However, if the color be the driver of the prohibition, it may not. Almost all watches, even pricy platinum cased ones, have brass "guts," albeit that quite often the interior parts are rhodium plated, thus making them appear "silver" when in fact, they are brass. There are also some watches that have gold (white, yellow or rose/pink) plated movements. Then there's the somewhat rarer situation wherein the watch case is hewn from an acceptable substance, but the movement inside is made of gold rather than being plated with it.
During the time of the Prophet anything gold was pure gold and silver was solid silver. (even today gulf arabs only deal in 24k gold)

Now things have changed. For instance my "silver" watch is actually a brushed stainless steel Movado.

Today there are several metals which are silver colored and various metals mimicking gold

So it basically boils down to color. If the item is gold or gold colored, then a man should not wear it.

If it's silver or silver colored, then it is ok to be worn by a man.

The color division is part of delineating the boundary between men and women.

Although, women are allowed to wear both gold and silver items. ...... :cool:
Looks like you too have discovered the value and beauty of stainless steel like the ancient Spartan Greeks ... and also the worthlessness of gold and silver too.
 
One of the qualifications for being the Imam of a mosque. Is that you have memorized the entire Quran.

Although to the western mind this seems to be unimaginable. Throughout the Islamic world millions of people have memorized every chapter of the Quran and can recite it verbatim starting from anywhere in the book.

In fact, many mosques will sponsor youth Quran recitation contests throughout the year.

The Quran is divided into 30 equal parts called "Juz".

During the month of Ramadan the Imam will recite one Juz per day in front of the entire mosque congregation. Completing the Quran on the last day of Ramadan. ...... :cool:
 

Forum List

Back
Top