Is the US of A a legitimate target?

[sealadaigh]

..... Sharia Hates what it can't convert and control. What is your point? You think We All Hate Muslims? Every Human is Created by God, and subject to His Will. That takes precedent over Brand Names. We are Each Human First, and accountable for Our actions in the same way. Be it beyond our understanding or not, We Each face consequence, to the exact Measure, both good and bad. We subscribe to separate Religious and Civil Authorities here. Laws, though influenced by Values and Ethics, based in Religious Roots, need to be supported by both reason, and the consent of the governed, at least in principle. Granted Totalitarians resent and try to circumvent that.

that site targeted muslims and lumped them all together.

sharia is no different than the code of canon law for catholics or the talmudic law for jews.

to portray all catholics as raving traditionalists or better yet, santeria adherents, would be wrong.

to portray all jews as strict adherents of the talmud would be wrong.

generally, laws based upon religious teachings tend to soften considerably when the particular religion exists in or is exposed to a progressive and secular world. the fact that a lot of these third world countries (and many second world countries) had been and to some extent still are exploited by first world and former colonialist countries certainly doesn't help matters either.

i hope you will take another look at this site...

Islam: Making a True Difference in the World - One Body at a Time

and reconsider whether it is approriate for this forum or not.

if it is your opinion that this is not a hate site, and that sites similar to it, regardless of the target, are not hate sites, i can accept that. i would just hope for some consistancy in the application.

Sharia is not the same as Canon Law. Sharia is Totalitarian. The Catholic Church does not disrespect the Separation of Powers, It does not seek to undermine Sovereign Rule. Sharia Law claims Dominance over Civil Law, All Law outside of the Koran. Big difference in outcomes, don't you think?

i will try to keep this short.

what i think is that canon law (and other christian law) and talmudic law and sharia law have a lot in common. the difference today is their settings. before jews and christians became industrial/technological societies these laws interjected themselves into their societies. wars were fought, witches were burned, and sinners were stoned. witchs were being burned less than 350 years ago. some jews still have eruv areas, marking them off with strings on phone poles in NYC and boca raton.

in many ways, as these laws govern people's personnal lives, they govern their neighbours personnal lives through politics. that is where we are today. we see this, and whether you agree or disagree with these issues, in the controversy over abortion, gay marriage, marijuana.

many, if not most, of the countries with sharia law, are either pre-industrial/pre technological (pre) societies. sharia law, no matter how barbaric it seems or is, served these cultures well in those "pre" societies, as the equally barbaric codes of christian law and talmudic law. progress takes time and occurs at different speeds, but i think a lot of states governed by sharia law will become less so as they become more industrial and less agrarian.

but this is about that site...."islam:making a difference in the world-one body at a time'. again, that site makes no distinction between types of islam and tars all muslims with the same broad brush. i think the best thing i can do is give you an examole with something that is not a hate site (it may be close...if i run it on the israel/palestine board i may get some takers and have a few choice vulgarities directed at me), but could easily be turned into a site similar to the one in question...

FailedMessiah.com

someone could take that site, and similar sites that criticise jewish societies, portray all jews that way...stoning women, pedophiles, spitting on priests, rabbis defending inbreeding...etc, etc, etc....throw in some sound bites and scarey graphics and ditorial comment, and you would get an highly inaccurate but still pretty damning picture of judaism.

one could easily make a similar site as the "islam" dite regarding christians...or any number of groups.

that is why i think that site is a hate site and i will still hope that you reconsider its use in the CDZ. i would hate to see sites like that set the standard for this board.

(i am not defending shariah law.)

 

[sealadaigh]

The Japanese thought the US was a legitimate target when they bombed Pearl Harbor too.

Liberals mean something else. A legitimate target has no right to self defense. Israel has no right to defend itself, and neither do we. It's no different that saying that a homeowner has no right of self defense against the home invader.

on 7 december, 1941, the pacific fleet was the target and it was probably not a legitimate target because there was no declaration of war.

There was a Declaration of War, It was delayed because of bureaucratic, communication and translation issues.

i am aware that there was a declaration of war, but that war was not declared.

i was shakey on that anyway, as can be seen from my post, and the time was very complicated. i believe the custom at the time was that their had to be a declaration of war for a target to be legitimate.

today, the fuel and steel stranglehold the USA put on japan would make the pacific fleet targets legitimate.

ultimately, and sadly, what makes any target legitimate, in the short term, is who wins. in the long term, it is who writes the history.

 

[HUGGY]

Given I'm asking for opinions, anyone who wishes to reply.
I believe America has painted a target on its own back and it's just a bit of hard luck if someone fires at it.

fine muslim reasoning right there...

yes.... keep telling yourself its a religion of peace...and muslims dont want to kill everything not muslim.

America is the attacking force in at least two countries and the arms supplier to the attacking force in a third.
I believe that is justification for any group concerned to attack America.

Perhaps you could give reasons why I'm wrong.

Unfortunately for the rest of the world America has no empathy. Our leaders will always find a reason legitimate or not to attack other countries. We will justify any innocent civilians murdered because to many Americans and certainly the vast majority of our leaders it is and always will be "America right or wrong". We lost our wisdom long ago and completely in Viet Nam. Our might is what makes us right. It is a carry over of manifest destiny and the general belief that all indigenous peoples are inferior to the european anglican base of our majority. Ask 90% of the people of this MB if the life of an innocent arab or for that matter a citizen of any country including England or Canada is equal to the life of an average American and they will tell you with no hesitation that it is not.

Do you think we really care if a country like Iran gets nukes if they would only use them on Israel? Of course not. A nuclear weapon strikes fear in the heart of most Americans because we would have to confront our own sense of right and wrong ..We would come up short. No, what we really fear is that retribution would be at hand for all the shitty things we have done to other peoples around the planet. We know that it would only be a matter of time before the payback we so surely deserve will be delivered.

I love my country. It hasn't escaped me though that other peoples love their countries just as much. Most Americans are shocked to discover from time to time that this is so.

 

[Londoner]

muslim reasoning and logic?

Let's try to get at the question with a tad more depth.

When the USA and Britain replaced the democratically elected Mozedeq with the Brutal Shaw (because the Shaw was more amendable to western energy needs), they increased the likelihood for blowback.

When Reagan helped Hussein consolidate his power, he increased the likelihood of blowback.

When Reagan supported the Mujahideen in Afghanistan (against the Russians), he increased the likelihood for blowback.

When Reagan sold weapons to Iran (the world's leading terrorist nation) so he could fund the Contras (another brutal group of terrorists), he increased the likelihood for blowback.

When the US spends 30+ years financing the brutal, freedom-hating Saudi Royals, they increase the likelihood for blowback.

Whenever the USA intervenes in the affairs of a foreign county, they increase the likelihood of blowback.

Geopolitics is a contact sport. The USA uses aggression only when it's necessary to protect its global assets.

Sometimes the leaders who protect our nation's interests have to spill blood. Sometimes they have to "get in bed" with brutal dictators. For instance, Reagan didn't want to support Hussein, but, he had just lost our primary asset in the region (that being the Shaw who was exiled in favor of Kohemeni). So Reagan acted out of necessity. Sometimes the laws of necessity have us partnering with terrorists or even invading sovereign nations (under the context of "national security"). Again: geopolitics is a contact sport. If someone doesn't like the fact that we play a primary role in managing the globe - and if they don't like that we sometimes have to kick ass, than bring it on - take your best shot. We live in a world with limited resources. The most powerful nations are always going to control those resources; and sometimes innocent people are going to get hurt. Welcome to the law of the jungle. If the US didn't do it, another superpower would (and they would likely be more brutal). Deal with it. Own it.

Throughout history the leaders who protect us have had to sugar-coat our foreign policy so as protect the women and children back on the homeland from the hardball that must be played in the outlying colonies. Indeed, our Government leaders feed the weak "feel good" stories about "Saving the world" and "Freedom is on the march". Unfortunately, many Rightwing voters are kept in a protective bubble. They are never exposed to the brutal but necessary things that this country must do to expand and protect its global resources. History is a bloodbath and survival is a bitch - and the only people who don't get it are the ones who listen to talk radio where they get pretty little stories about spreading freedom.

We play hardballl. And sometimes we don't spread freedom. Sometimes we install a brutal dictator because it's are only option. Who cares if we are a legitimate target. I say "bring it on". Stop trying to sugar-coat it. Man up

 

[PaulS1950]

Since Israel isn't a "legitament" target how in heaven's name can the USA be one?
There are no "legitament" terrorist targets.

 

[emilynghiem]

Is the US of A a legitimate target?

According to whom?

Given I'm asking for opinions, anyone who wishes to reply.
I believe America has painted a target on its own back and it's just a bit of hard luck if someone fires at it.

IMO we have plenty of action going on
in terms of in-fighting and self-destruction
that is killing the country.

The dependence on slave labor instead of setting up local production and jobs;
the projected blame back and forth between parties competing for points
instead of solving problems with SUSTAINABLE solutions;
the amount of money spent on problems with crime and corruption
wasting taxpayers' resources without financial accountability or plan to collect or pay back,

these are things that will kill us, regardless if any foreign opponent attacks the US.

if we don't uphold and enforce laws, and invest in rebuilding
we are already dead in the water.

 

[emilynghiem]

It isn't just for the sake of being "America" or "having more might" or
being of European/Anglican descent that gave this upper hand.

What gives America the upper hand is enforcing BOTH
Constitutional laws of the state and Christian laws of the church.

But now, since both of these authorities are being undermined
where decisions are no longer made by the spirit of the laws
but by bullying for political favor through personal interests of one group over others,
then we have LOST our grounding.

We no longer have or respect CONSENT as the basis of laws and governance
but manipulate majority rule to justify authority in making political decisions.

The enforcement of Christian laws is based on agreement, rebuke and correction
for the sake of truth and justice; the enforcement of Constitutional laws is based
on due process, consent of the governed and equal protection of the laws.

So when we forego those standards and just base laws and govt on
whoever has the greater influence in coercion, then we no longer have
a solid foundation to stand on for laws we claim to enforce.

fine muslim reasoning right there...

yes.... keep telling yourself its a religion of peace...and muslims dont want to kill everything not muslim.

America is the attacking force in at least two countries and the arms supplier to the attacking force in a third.
I believe that is justification for any group concerned to attack America.

Perhaps you could give reasons why I'm wrong.

Unfortunately for the rest of the world America has no empathy. Our leaders will always find a reason legitimate or not to attack other countries. We will justify any innocent civilians murdered because to many Americans and certainly the vast majority of our leaders it is and always will be "America right or wrong". We lost our wisdom long ago and completely in Viet Nam. Our might is what makes us right. It is a carry over of manifest destiny and the general belief that all indigenous peoples are inferior to the european anglican base of our majority. Ask 90% of the people of this MB if the life of an innocent arab or for that matter a citizen of any country including England or Canada is equal to the life of an average American and they will tell you with no hesitation that it is not.

Do you think we really care if a country like Iran gets nukes if they would only use them on Israel? Of course not. A nuclear weapon strikes fear in the heart of most Americans because we would have to confront our own sense of right and wrong ..We would come up short. No, what we really fear is that retribution would be at hand for all the shitty things we have done to other peoples around the planet. We know that it would only be a matter of time before the payback we so surely deserve will be delivered.

I love my country. It hasn't escaped me though that other peoples love their countries just as much. Most Americans are shocked to discover from time to time that this is so.

Where people of all nations or parties AGREE in the spirit of truth and justice, that is where we have law instead of lawlessness. If we just abuse political majority to bully and bulldoze over the interests of others, that goes against the social order where the govt is supposed to represent the democratic will of the people. Like having no moral compass, just politics.

 

[Indofred]

fine muslim reasoning right there...

yes.... keep telling yourself its a religion of peace...and muslims dont want to kill everything not muslim.

America is the attacking force in at least two countries and the arms supplier to the attacking force in a third.
I believe that is justification for any group concerned to attack America.

Perhaps you could give reasons why I'm wrong.

muslim reasoning and logic?

German reasoning and logic.
Germany attacked American shipping pre America's late entry into WWII because they were supplying the UK with arms.
I'm simply suggesting the same is true for America's support for Israeli government murders.

 

[syrenn]

America is the attacking force in at least two countries and the arms supplier to the attacking force in a third.
I believe that is justification for any group concerned to attack America.

Perhaps you could give reasons why I'm wrong.

muslim reasoning and logic?

German reasoning and logic.
Germany attacked American shipping pre America's late entry into WWII because they were supplying the UK with arms.
I'm simply suggesting the same is true for America's support for Israeli government murders.

and hamas isnt a government of murdering terrorists?


yes, we know muslims think anything not muslim is a legitimate target for attack...

islam tells you so.

 

[Connery]

muslim reasoning and logic?

German reasoning and logic.
Germany attacked American shipping pre America's late entry into WWII because they were supplying the UK with arms.
I'm simply suggesting the same is true for America's support for Israeli government murders.

and hamas isnt a government of murdering terrorists?


yes, we know muslims think anything not muslim is a legitimate target for attack...

islam tells you so.

Besides the US is already under attack with their insufferable dogma and attempts to force the judiciary to accept sharia as substantive law.

 

[Indofred]

muslim reasoning and logic?

German reasoning and logic.
Germany attacked American shipping pre America's late entry into WWII because they were supplying the UK with arms.
I'm simply suggesting the same is true for America's support for Israeli government murders.

and hamas isnt a government of murdering terrorists?

yes, we know muslims think anything not muslim is a legitimate target for attack...

islam tells you so.

I'd see it as attacking the enemy's lines of supply, just as Nazi Germany did.

 

[syrenn]

German reasoning and logic.
Germany attacked American shipping pre America's late entry into WWII because they were supplying the UK with arms.
I'm simply suggesting the same is true for America's support for Israeli government murders.

and hamas isnt a government of murdering terrorists?


yes, we know muslims think anything not muslim is a legitimate target for attack...

islam tells you so.

Besides the US is already under attack with their insufferable dogma and attempts to force the judiciary to accept sharia as substantive law.

yes... islam good.... everything else bad.

 

[syrenn]

German reasoning and logic.
Germany attacked American shipping pre America's late entry into WWII because they were supplying the UK with arms.
I'm simply suggesting the same is true for America's support for Israeli government murders.

and hamas isnt a government of murdering terrorists?

yes, we know muslims think anything not muslim is a legitimate target for attack...

islam tells you so.

I'd see it as attacking the enemy's lines of supply, just as Nazi Germany did.

As i have told you.... you are very easy to see though. Everything you say has the same base line.


islam... good.... everything else.... bad, enemy, must destroy.

it must be true... islam tells you so.

 

[PaulS1950]

You do realize that in order to have "legitimate" targets you have to be on a firing range or at war with your targets, right?
Palestine and the USA were not at war the last time I checked.
The term "terrorists" and legitimate don't even belong in the same sentence unless you are saying terrorists are legitimate targets for any nation because they attack the people of all nations - even their own.

 

[syrenn]

You do realize that in order to have "legitimate" targets you have to be on a firing range or at war with your targets, right?
Palestine and the USA were not at war the last time I checked.
The term "terrorists" and legitimate don't even belong in the same sentence unless you are saying terrorists are legitimate targets for any nation because they attack the people of all nations - even their own.

the part you are not getting is...

to a muslim terrorist.....the US is of course... a legitimate target. islam tell them so.

 

[PaulS1950]

You do realize that in order to have "legitimate" targets you have to be on a firing range or at war with your targets, right?
Palestine and the USA were not at war the last time I checked.
The term "terrorists" and legitimate don't even belong in the same sentence unless you are saying terrorists are legitimate targets for any nation because they attack the people of all nations - even their own.

the part you are not getting is...

to a muslim terrorist.....the US is of course... a legitimate target. islam tell them so.

There are no legitimate targets! Terrorists target the emotions of civilians not the might of a military. There are no legitimate targets of terrorists because there is no war. They do things that frighten populations - they are extortionists, not soldiers. They have no legitamate targets - YOU are not getting it.

 

[syrenn]

You do realize that in order to have "legitimate" targets you have to be on a firing range or at war with your targets, right?
Palestine and the USA were not at war the last time I checked.
The term "terrorists" and legitimate don't even belong in the same sentence unless you are saying terrorists are legitimate targets for any nation because they attack the people of all nations - even their own.

the part you are not getting is...

to a muslim terrorist.....the US is of course... a legitimate target. islam tell them so.

There are no legitimate targets! Terrorists target the emotions of civilians not the might of a military. There are no legitimate targets of terrorists because there is no war. They do things that frighten populations - they are extortionists, not soldiers. They have no legitamate targets - YOU are not getting it.

I understand that.... and so does the rest of the ....sane world.

I suggest you aquatint yourself with islam a bit better.... to THEM..... everything not muslim IS a legitimate target.

 

[sealadaigh]

and hamas isnt a government of murdering terrorists?

yes, we know muslims think anything not muslim is a legitimate target for attack...

islam tells you so.

I'd see it as attacking the enemy's lines of supply, just as Nazi Germany did.

As i have told you.... you are very easy to see though. Everything you say has the same base line.


islam... good.... everything else.... bad, enemy, must destroy.

it must be true... islam tells you so.

maybe you should take these "arguments" to the israel/palestine board. they really do not belong here.

 

[sealadaigh]

the part you are not getting is...

to a muslim terrorist.....the US is of course... a legitimate target. islam tell them so.

There are no legitimate targets! Terrorists target the emotions of civilians not the might of a military. There are no legitimate targets of terrorists because there is no war. They do things that frighten populations - they are extortionists, not soldiers. They have no legitamate targets - YOU are not getting it.

I understand that.... and so does the rest of the ....sane world.

I suggest you aquatint yourself with islam a bit better.... to THEM..... everything not muslim IS a legitimate target.

would you care to substantiate what you have said by providing a reliable, mainstream source.

 

[sealadaigh]

German reasoning and logic.
Germany attacked American shipping pre America's late entry into WWII because they were supplying the UK with arms.
I'm simply suggesting the same is true for America's support for Israeli government murders.

and hamas isnt a government of murdering terrorists?


yes, we know muslims think anything not muslim is a legitimate target for attack...

islam tells you so.

Besides the US is already under attack with their insufferable dogma and attempts to force the judiciary to accept sharia as substantive law.

that is a very, very broad statement, by you and syrenn. perhaps you could back those statements up or, if not, take it to a more appropriate board.

i personally know many, many muslims and have never met one who was less than gracious and accepting of my catholic faith, as lax as it is. they actually seem relieved when they find out i am catholic. one of my best friends and one of the finest men i know is a sufi from senegal. he was very gentle and wouldn't hurt a fly.

i wish i could say the same for many of the athiests, christians, and jews i know.

as for indofred's statement, once again, nations are not legitimate targets. legitimate targets are very specific things and may even be very specific things at very specific times.