Zone1 is the church built upon Peter? HELL NO

[hadit]

I don't. I'm worried for you.

Show me where I am wrong.

 

[ding]

Show me where I am wrong.

I already told you in post #88 and post #108.

 

[Cougarbear]

repent before its too late. lds church is of satan.

The name of the church is The Church of Jesus Christ. So no, not if Satan.

 

[Meriweather]

Are Mary and all the saints omnipresent among ALL the believers who are praying all at the same time? You know, like God is?

Why even ask that question? Are you considering the possibility that she is? Why? I identify Mary as a member of the Body of Christ and that makes you consider her omnipresent and divine? That's quite a leap.

 

[Meriweather]

She is a member of the Body, sure. No one is saying otherwise. What I am questioning, however, is why do you believe she has been given supernatural abilities and responsibilities when it's not in Scripture?

You see her "abilities" as "supernatural"? We are not even on the same page. You have painted Mary as someone I don't even recognize. No wonder you want nothing to do with her--and probably shouldn't.

Those who don't want to prayerfully join with those who have passed on, should excuse themselves from these prayers. Those who hold no belief that prayers can be of any help to those who have passed on should excuse themselves from these prayers as well.

 

[zaangalewa]

See, all you have are opinions with no basis in facts.

What's wrong.

Without Joseph Smith there is no Book of Mormon and no restored church because your Catholic Church apostatized and changed the doctrines and ordinances of Jesus Christ.

I do not start to try to discuss with you now about what "catholic" means - but the opinion to have to be an anti-catholic is as stupid and wrong as it is wide spreaded under Christians who like to be "not-catholic".

Your Popes and priests are nothing more than cilld molester rapists

Are we?

or shelter those who commit these crimes of murder like attacks on young boys.

Eh?

Some of your popes even murdered to ascend to their thrones of power.

Really? Who? Do you have a name in your mind now?

Joseph did no such thing.

Okay. So not to be a "cilld molester rapist" and not to "shelter those who commit these crimes of murder like attacks on young boys" and not to "murder... to ascend to their thrones of power" qualifies everyone to be a prophet and to found a new religion who owns 40 women and is doing war on the USA?

 

[hadit]

I already told you in post #88 and post #108.

Because you don't like my opinions about what Catholics believe, you want to say I'm a heretic?

 

[hadit]

You see her "abilities" as "supernatural"? We are not even on the same page. You have painted Mary as someone I don't even recognize. No wonder you want nothing to do with her--and probably shouldn't.

Those who don't want to prayerfully join with those who have passed on, should excuse themselves from these prayers. Those who hold no belief that prayers can be of any help to those who have passed on should excuse themselves from these prayers as well.

All I know is that there are millions of Catholics clamoring for Mary's attention every single day, while you paint a picture of a handful in one place all praying the same thing at the same time. Why don't you ask the dead what THEY want you to pray about? Does anyone ask that of Mary? It would seem that the dead would know what they need better than you do, and Mary would know what God wants His children to be focused on.

 

[hadit]

Why even ask that question? Are you considering the possibility that she is? Why? I identify Mary as a member of the Body of Christ and that makes you consider her omnipresent and divine? That's quite a leap.

And again, we're back to millions of Catholics all believing that Mary is hearing from each of them at the same time. If she's not omnipresent, how is she fielding all those prayers?

 

[Meriweather]

All I know is that there are millions of Catholics clamoring for Mary's attention every single day, while you paint a picture of a handful in one place all praying the same thing at the same time.

That is what you choose to picture--chaos--which baffles me. When you pray, do you picture the spiritual world in chaos because of the prayers of others? Do you even think about the needs of other when you pray, or are you picturing a little intimate conversation between you and God, silence all around?

Why don't you ask the dead what THEY want you to pray about?

Don't have to. A couple, knowing my prayers for others, have let me know.

Does anyone ask that of Mary?

I know I do, or more precisely pray solely for her intentions.

And again, we're back to millions of Catholics all believing that Mary is hearing from each of them at the same time. If she's not omnipresent, how is she fielding all those prayers?

You are the only one I know who believes that Mary hears millions of prayers all at once. Shrug. First, prayers are to God, whether it is one at prayer, or two, or many. Do you believe God wants us to pray? Or are you one who believes God knows what we need, so there is no need for prayer? When we are at prayer, do you believe God is oblivious, that his omniscience takes a break? Or, that he is annoyed that two or more are praying together?

I am puzzled by the determination to find something wrong with the prayers of others. God knows the numbers of hairs on our heads, but he is oblivious to people asking Mary to join in their prayers--and of Mary asking people to join in her prayers? You find something dirty about that, people praying together--or think God does?

 

[ding]

Because you don't like my opinions about what Catholics believe, you want to say I'm a heretic?

No, I don't like your lies about what you believe Catholics believe.

And again... where did I claim you were a heretic?

 

[Cougarbear]

What's wrong.



I do not start to try to discuss with you now about what "catholic" means - but the opinion to have to be an anti-catholic is as stupid and wrong as it is wide spreaded under Christians who like to be "not-catholic".



Are we?



Eh?



Really? Who? Do you have a name in your mind now?



Okay. So not to be a "cilld molester rapist" and not to "shelter those who commit these crimes of murder like attacks on young boys" and not to "murder... to ascend to their thrones of power" qualifies everyone to be a prophet and to found a new religion who owns 40 women and is doing war on the USA?

You are either extremely ignorant or really dumb. Celestine V was murdered by his successor. Oh, John XII was murdered while in bed with another man’s wife. Shall I list more like the popes of the Spanish Inquisition who murdered Jews? And on and on and on. Those who live in glass houses should not throw rocks.

 

[hadit]

That is what you choose to picture--chaos--which baffles me. When you pray, do you picture the spiritual world in chaos because of the prayers of others? Do you even think about the needs of other when you pray, or are you picturing a little intimate conversation between you and God, silence all around?

It is not chaos to God, and He is the only one that matters. Mary, OTOH, is a human, and nowhere in Scripture does it state that she can hear millions of people asking her to pray with them or do stuff for them. Are you imagining that millions of people all praying all around the clock for different things can be anything BUT chaos for a human to consume and understand? Do you REALLY think those millions of prayers are all distilled down to something a human can understand with our limited capacity?

Don't have to. A couple, knowing my prayers for others, have let me know.

I know I do, or more precisely pray solely for her intentions.

And you are not likely in the majority, which leaves millions praying selfishly for their own purposes, which again brings us right back to chaos.

You are the only one I know who believes that Mary hears millions of prayers all at once.

Okay, do you agree that millions of Catholics around the world are constantly beseeching her to pray with them or do stuff for them, simultaneously, all day, every day? You seem to think there are not, that there are only the handful in your local church that she needs to hear from. Tell us then, if she does NOT hear millions of prayers all at once, how are the prayers prioritized so she can handle the first few and ignore the rest? Are yours put to the front of the line, or is it that only certain ones are allowed through the filter?

Shrug. First, prayers are to God, whether it is one at prayer, or two, or many.

Yet you ask her, IN YOUR PRAYERS, to pray with you or do stuff for you. How is that not praying to her?

Do you believe God wants us to pray? Or are you one who believes God knows what we need, so there is no need for prayer?

That's a nonsensical question, as even a cursory reading of what I have written will tell you.

When we are at prayer, do you believe God is oblivious, that his omniscience takes a break? Or, that he is annoyed that two or more are praying together?

And again, you bring your obsession with this fantasy that I don't approve of people praying together. How many times do I have to remind you?

I am puzzled by the determination to find something wrong with the prayers of others.

I am simply stating that:
1. There is no Scriptural support for praying for the dead. You can't deny that.
2. There is also no Scriptural support for the idea that Mary and the saints (terrible name for a rock band) are listening in heaven, ready to hear from millions of people every day and handle what they're asking for. You also can't deny that.

Those are both man-made traditions, and when tradition bucks up against Scripture, tradition takes a back seat.

God knows the numbers of hairs on our heads, but he is oblivious to people asking Mary to join in their prayers--and of Mary asking people to join in her prayers? You find something dirty about that, people praying together--or think God does?

So, Mary's not really involved then? It's just God separating out the millions of voices clamoring for His attention, then handling things Himself, exactly as I have been saying? And for the last time, stop with your insane fantasy that I disapprove of people praying together. That's ridiculous.

 

[hadit]

No, I don't like your lies about what you believe Catholics believe.

And again... where did I claim you were a heretic?

You cited a passage of Scripture that talks about having nothing to do with a heretic. Perhaps you didn't read what you cited?

 

[ding]

You cited a passage of Scripture that talks about having nothing to do with a heretic. Perhaps you didn't read what you cited?

Maybe you should quote what I said and then quote the scripture. Or you can just keep making silly unfounded accusations.

Otherwise... see Titus 3:9-11.

 

[Meriweather]

Yet you ask her, IN YOUR PRAYERS, to pray with you or do stuff for you. How is that not praying to her?

I do? Mary asked for prayers (to God) for peace, for us to pray (to God) for forgiveness. What "stuff" are you imagining I (and others) am asking Mary to do? Are you thinking because Mary asked people to pray, when we people do pray, the Holy Spirit, says, "Well here's a billion prayers that can be ignored. I need a break. Imagine! Mary asking other people to pray for peace and forgiveness, as if I don't have enough to do!"

I did ask my grandmothers to join me in prayer once. They both ratted me out to my mother, advising her I needed help. Which the solved the problem I had been praying over.

 

[Meriweather]

So, Mary's not really involved then? It's just God separating out the millions of voices clamoring for His attention, then handling things Himself, exactly as I have been saying? And for the last time, stop with your insane fantasy that I disapprove of people praying together. That's ridiculous.

I'm merely showing you what your "insane fantasy" about Mary looks like. Insane.

 

[zaangalewa]

You are either extremely ignorant or really dumb.

Sure. This is the universal excuse for everything and nothing on reason not to have to start to think.

Celestine V was murdered by his successor.

Celestine 5th was murdered? And so his murderer became Pope? That's why Johnathan Swift ... ah sorry: Joseph Smith ... founded a new religion?

Benedict XVI and Coelestine V had had by the way an extremely interesting spiritual parallel. They had been up to now the only popes who resigned.

Oh, John XII was murdered while in bed with another man’s wife.

Somehow funny - on the other side: poor woman. Nevertheless John the XIIth was desposed.

Shall I list more like the popes of the Spanish Inquisition who murdered Jews?

A very complex story - specially also because the Spanish inquisition is not the Roman inquisition and in general all inquisitions seem to had been often much more better than is their imagine. which is dominated from anti-Catholics. And in general I guess you should first of all not believe in all of your own lies. You are in a big danger to come in conflict with one of the ten commandements.

And on and on and on. Those who live in glass houses should not throw rocks.

I do not live in a glass house. It's made with bricks. And my own mistakes excuse in general nothing. If something is wrong what I say then do not believe it. But as far as I can see Joseph Smith had been a spiritual charlatan. What you said changed nothing in my opinion about him, which I got by the way by talking with Mormons and not by talking with Catholics. But you do in general not believe what a supporter of "cilld molester rapist" - your expression for all Catholic clerics - says to you. May it be your aggressions still come from a tradition which is directly rooted in this man? How was he? Did he fight for the right of women to merry many men? For sure not, isn't it? If he had done so then he had been perhaps a relativelly just man. But what to say about someone like him? To compare him with Gandhi, the Shakyamuni or the Nazarane is a problem, isn't it?

 

[Cougarbear]

Sure. This is the universal excuse for everything and nothing on reason not to have to start to think.



Celestine 5th was murdered? And so his murderer became Pope? That's why Johnathan Swift ... ah sorry: Joseph Smith ... founded a new religion?

Benedict XVI and Coelestine V had had by the way an extremely interesting spiritual parallel. They had been up to now the only Popes who resigned.



Somehow funny - on the other side: poor woman. Nevertheless John the XIIth was desposed.



A very complex story - specially also because the Spanish inquisition is not the Roman inqusition and in general all inquisitions seem often to be much more better than is their imagine which is made from anti-Catholics. And in general I guess you should first of all not believe in all of your own lies. You are in a big danger to come in conflict with one fo teh ten commandements.



i do not live in a glass house. As hfasr as I cans sae Josepgh smoth had been a spiritual charlatan. What you said changed nothing in my my opinion about him. But you do not beleiev what a supporter of "cilld molester rapist" - your expression for all Catholic clerics - says to you. Specially becaue you nthin this ios an aggressvcie statement because you suffer aggressions. Can it be this aggressions still come from a tradition which still is directly rooted in this man?

You then claim to know history better than the historians including Catholic historians. Trying excuse the Spanish Inquisition as a complicated excuse is pathetic. Then, Popes quitting and deposed is somehow okay now. Pathetic. Like I said, those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw rocks.

 

[zaangalewa]

You then claim to know history better than the historians including Catholic historians.

It's totally unimportant for me who murdered whom in history. I lost the overview in this direction.

Trying excuse the Spanish Inquisition as a complicated excuse is pathetic.

Not really. I have Jewish ancestors on my own. I'm more anti-pathetic and suggest to take a much more serios look at all this problems - specially also under the view that "Andalusia" had been "Vandalusia" - which was perhaps founded from Arian Christians before they became Muslims And the sado-maso stories that inquisitions tortured witches is for example indeed very far from reality. Such stories are created in the 19th century in the so called "culture fight" against Catholics.

Then, Popes quitting and deposed is somehow okay now. Pathetic. Like I said, those who live in glass houses shouldn’t throw rocks.

What you say is just simple: Never criticize Mormons because Mormons are always right in their critics on Catholics. You use us Catholics as a shield to go to hell. Very clear: I am not this shield which helps you to go down.


comment: "das Brennen erwacht" is wrong. He sings: "... Verlangen, das brennend erwacht.".