Debate Now Is Libertarianism UnAmerican?

With respect to your bolded section....someone really believes that a situation can truly exist where 15% of the population "perishes" (dies).

Can you explain how that happens ?

Ever been to a 3rd world nation?

The USA is one of the wealthiest nations in the world, if not the wealthiest, and yet it has the highest infant mortality rate amongst the wealthy nations.

The World Factbook

Mortality rate infant per 1 000 live births Data Table

Now why would that be?

Our infant mortality rate is a national embarrassment - The Washington Post

"Most striking," they write, "the US has similar neonatal mortality but a substantial disadvantage in postneonatal
mortality" compared to Austria and Finland. In other words, mortality rates among infants in their first days and weeks of life are similar across all three countries. But as infants get older, a mortality gap opens between the U.S. and the other countries, and widens considerably. You can see this clearly in the chart below.

imrs.php



Digging deeper into these numbers, Oster and her colleagues found that the higher U.S. mortality rates are due "entirely, or almost entirely, to high mortality among less advantaged groups." To put it bluntly, babies born to poor moms in the U.S. are significantly more likely to die in their first year than babies born to wealthier moms.


imrs.php




In fact, infant mortality rates among wealthy Americans are similar to the mortality rates among wealthy Fins and Austrians. The difference is that in Finland and Austria, poor babies are nearly as likely to survive their first years as wealthy ones. In the U.S. - land of opportunity - that is starkly not the case: "there is tremendous inequality in the US, with lower education groups, unmarried and African-American women having much higher infant mortality rates," the authors conclude.

One way of understanding these numbers is by noting that most American babies, regardless of socio-economic status, are born in hospitals. And while in the hospital, American infants receive exceedingly good care - our neo-natal intensive care units are among the best in the world. This may explain why mortality rates in the first few weeks of life are similar in the U.S., Finland and Austria.

But the differences arise after infants are sent home. Poor American families have considerably less access to quality healthcare as their wealthier counterparts.

One measure of the Affordable Care Act's success, then, will be whether it leads to improvements in the infant mortality rate. Oster and her colleagues note that Obamacare contains provisions to expand post-natal home nurse visits, which are fairly common in Europe.

Research like this drives home the notion that economic debates in this country - about inequality, poverty, healthcare - aren't just policy abstractions. There are real lives at stake.

Now let's use that data to address your question as to why 15% of the population would perish under a Libertarian economy.

In the article above it explains that a lack of access to healthcare is the primary reason for there being a much higher infant mortality rate in the USA. In a purely Libertarian economy the only access to any healthcare would be for those who could afford it since there would only be private healthcare and nothing else for anybody who can't afford it.

So who can't afford healthcare? The poor and the elderly without incomes. There is your 15% who would perish.

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Unfortunately Libertarians just don't understand how the Constitution and their rights actually work. Instead they want to tear it all down in a "constitutional convention" and throw out all of the rules and regulations and start from scratch.

That is why Libertarians are, to all intents and purposes, unAmerican.

Our Founding Fathers did just that....they tor it all down and threw out all the rules. And then they did it again in 1787.

Why is that so un-American ?

The FF chose to convert from a Monarchy to a government Of the People and By the People For the People.

What are Libertarians proposing to replace the government of We the People with?

Anarchy?
 
Unfortunately Libertarians just don't understand how the Constitution and their rights actually work. Instead they want to tear it all down in a "constitutional convention" and throw out all of the rules and regulations and start from scratch.

That is why Libertarians are, to all intents and purposes, unAmerican.

Our Founding Fathers did just that....they tor it all down and threw out all the rules. And then they did it again in 1787.

Why is that so un-American ?

The FF chose to convert from a Monarchy to a government Of the People and By the People For the People.

What are Libertarians proposing to replace the government of We the People with?

Anarchy?

The FF chose to throw out an existing government.

When the figured out the first one was not working, they did it again.

How is that different from Libertarians.

I do not see libertarians advocating a complete lack of government.

And I will ask again, why is tearing it down and starting over...un-American...regardless of what they propose (unless you really assume they want anarchy at which point they are no longer libertarians...they are anarchists).
 


Now let's use that data to address your question as to why 15% of the population would perish under a Libertarian economy.

In the article above it explains that a lack of access to healthcare is the primary reason for there being a much higher infant mortality rate in the USA. In a purely Libertarian economy the only access to any healthcare would be for those who could afford it since there would only be private healthcare and nothing else for anybody who can't afford it.

So who can't afford healthcare? The poor and the elderly without incomes. There is your 15% who would perish.

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Your graph shows a cumulative probability of .5%. You are off by a factor of 30.

If your argument was that this carries through...please show how you can make that claim.

Assuming that based on average lifespan of 75 years...about 1.3% of the population dies each year...you should be able to find some kind of dramatic cause and effect.

Unless your timeframe is longer....at which point you'll need to specify it. If it gets to long..you approach 1.3% and the claim has no meaning.
 
Now let's use that data to address your question as to why 15% of the population would perish under a Libertarian economy.

In the article above it explains that a lack of access to healthcare is the primary reason for there being a much higher infant mortality rate in the USA. In a purely Libertarian economy the only access to any healthcare would be for those who could afford it since there would only be private healthcare and nothing else for anybody who can't afford it.

So who can't afford healthcare? The poor and the elderly without incomes. There is your 15% who would perish.

.

Your graph shows a cumulative probability of .5%. You are off by a factor of 30.

If your argument was that this carries through...please show how you can make that claim.

Assuming that based on average lifespan of 75 years...about 1.3% of the population dies each year...you should be able to find some kind of dramatic cause and effect.

Unless your timeframe is longer....at which point you'll need to specify it. If it gets to long..you approach 1.3% and the claim has no meaning.

The links were to illustrate the point of what happens to the most vulnerable without any social services. 3rd world nations without social services have high mortality rates for the most vulnerable members of those societies. Scrapping the current government together with all of those services would result in the deaths of 15% of the population who are either elderly or living in poverty. The data proves it.
 
"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism". All "isms" have both good and bad aspects. Capitalism run amok is every bit as bad as socialism run amok. The secret is in developing a healthy balance. Anytime someone takes an extremist view of anything, you had best watch out, because ultimately they have no interest in what is best for the country but rather what is best for them.
 
"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism".

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does! :eek:

Platform Libertarian Party






Progressive Democrats are pushing for the government to be involved in virtually every aspect of your life from birth to death. You think that's any better?

Repubs are trying to control the actions of adults within the confines of their own homes and bedrooms? You think that's any better?
 
Now let's use that data to address your question as to why 15% of the population would perish under a Libertarian economy.

In the article above it explains that a lack of access to healthcare is the primary reason for there being a much higher infant mortality rate in the USA. In a purely Libertarian economy the only access to any healthcare would be for those who could afford it since there would only be private healthcare and nothing else for anybody who can't afford it.

So who can't afford healthcare? The poor and the elderly without incomes. There is your 15% who would perish.

.

Your graph shows a cumulative probability of .5%. You are off by a factor of 30.

If your argument was that this carries through...please show how you can make that claim.

Assuming that based on average lifespan of 75 years...about 1.3% of the population dies each year...you should be able to find some kind of dramatic cause and effect.

Unless your timeframe is longer....at which point you'll need to specify it. If it gets to long..you approach 1.3% and the claim has no meaning.

The links were to illustrate the point of what happens to the most vulnerable without any social services. 3rd world nations without social services have high mortality rates for the most vulnerable members of those societies. Scrapping the current government together with all of those services would result in the deaths of 15% of the population who are either elderly or living in poverty. The data proves it.

I don't recall seeing any data on the elderly.

But, it's a straw man anyway.

If you want to call Social Security a Social Service...I'd have to disagree. Those who are getting it (for the most part) have a claim on it.
 
There was an article written on the Thom Hartmann website in 2011 called "Libertarianism - the Un-American Pipe Dream that Backfires".

It exposed the fundamental paradox of Libertarianism which can be summarized as having the ideal of absolute individual rights will always result in a complete loss of all of those rights.

None of the Libertarian ideals actually work in practice.

Remove all regulations on corporations and the subsequent pollution alone will end up destroying other corporations. For example if one state has a corporation that spews toxins into a river that runs downstream to a state where corporations depend upon fishing and tourism from that same river there is nothing in Libertarianism that prevents that from happening. The rights of the corporate owners to pump toxins into the river is absolute in a Libertarian Utopia. That it kills fish and destroys the livelihoods of others cannot be used to challenge those rights. There is not government regulation allowed to prevent that from happening. Those harmed, if still alive, might try to sue but since they don't have standing in the other state they probably won't even get a hearing from a judge.

Taxation is another Libertarian pipe dream. The refuse to pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit them. So when they refuse to pay taxes to repair roads there are accidents that not only cost lives but impact the efficiency of corporations to receive raw materials and deliver finished goods. There are countless examples along these lines.

Worst of all Libertarians hate democracy. They don't want to have to obey laws passed by a democratically elected majority and signed into law if they don't agree with them. Libertarians don't want any laws that would infringe upon their individual rights, period. (Just read their manifesto, er, platform on the Libertarian Party website.)

There is something fundamentally wrong with Libertarianism to the point of being unAmerican. Personal individual rights only exist because others are willing to stand up for those rights just as it is the duty of every American to stand up for the rights of others. Libertarians don't want to stand up for the right of gays to have wedding cakes baked for them by businesses that bake wedding cakes if it goes against their religious beliefs about gays.

Unfortunately Libertarians just don't understand how the Constitution and their rights actually work. Instead they want to tear it all down in a "constitutional convention" and throw out all of the rules and regulations and start from scratch.

That is why Libertarians are, to all intents and purposes, unAmerican.

The Question to be Debated in this Discussion:

Is Libertarianism unAmerican?

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:
  1. No ad hominems.
  2. Dictionary definitions will prevail.
  3. Claiming that you are speaking on behalf of others is forbidden.
  4. What you post is de facto your opinion unless substantiated with credible links.
  5. When you are asked to provide a credible link to substantiate your position you must do so or you automatically forfeit your position.
  6. Links can be contested and if they can be shown to be biased they will be discounted.
  7. If you are going to invoke partisan terminology then be prepared to have it called out for what it is.
  8. No one is exempt from legitimate criticism including the OP.
Libertarianism is fundamentally American...
 
"Is Libertarianism UnAmerican?"

No.

It is naïve, reactionary, and devoid of merit, however.

And although not un-American, the preponderance of what libertarians advocate is un-Constitutional, or at the very least in conflict with settled and accepted Constitutional case law and the original intent of the Framing Generation – from Commerce Clause jurisprudence to the doctrines eminent domain and the interpretive authority of the Federal courts, libertarian dogma manifests an unwarranted hostility toward much of the fundamental underpinnings of the Republic.
 
"Libertarianiasm" is no more un-American than "Republicanism" or "Democratism".

Neither "Republicanism" or "Democratism" advocates eliminating all social programs.

The Libertarian party does! :eek:

Platform Libertarian Party






Progressive Democrats are pushing for the government to be involved in virtually every aspect of your life from birth to death. You think that's any better?

Repubs are trying to control the actions of adults within the confines of their own homes and bedrooms? You think that's any better?

Libertarianism is just another term for a 3rd world nation where only the wealthy have access to healthcare, justice, quality living standards, etc, etc. Even Communism is better than Libertarianism.
 

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