Debate Now Is Libertarianism UnAmerican?

[Derideo_Te]

There was an article written on the Thom Hartmann website in 2011 called "Libertarianism - the Un-American Pipe Dream that Backfires".

It exposed the fundamental paradox of Libertarianism which can be summarized as having the ideal of absolute individual rights will always result in a complete loss of all of those rights.

None of the Libertarian ideals actually work in practice.

Remove all regulations on corporations and the subsequent pollution alone will end up destroying other corporations. For example if one state has a corporation that spews toxins into a river that runs downstream to a state where corporations depend upon fishing and tourism from that same river there is nothing in Libertarianism that prevents that from happening. The rights of the corporate owners to pump toxins into the river is absolute in a Libertarian Utopia. That it kills fish and destroys the livelihoods of others cannot be used to challenge those rights. There is not government regulation allowed to prevent that from happening. Those harmed, if still alive, might try to sue but since they don't have standing in the other state they probably won't even get a hearing from a judge.

Taxation is another Libertarian pipe dream. The refuse to pay for anything that doesn't directly benefit them. So when they refuse to pay taxes to repair roads there are accidents that not only cost lives but impact the efficiency of corporations to receive raw materials and deliver finished goods. There are countless examples along these lines.

Worst of all Libertarians hate democracy. They don't want to have to obey laws passed by a democratically elected majority and signed into law if they don't agree with them. Libertarians don't want any laws that would infringe upon their individual rights, period. (Just read their manifesto, er, platform on the Libertarian Party website.)

There is something fundamentally wrong with Libertarianism to the point of being unAmerican. Personal individual rights only exist because others are willing to stand up for those rights just as it is the duty of every American to stand up for the rights of others. Libertarians don't want to stand up for the right of gays to have wedding cakes baked for them by businesses that bake wedding cakes if it goes against their religious beliefs about gays.

Unfortunately Libertarians just don't understand how the Constitution and their rights actually work. Instead they want to tear it all down in a "constitutional convention" and throw out all of the rules and regulations and start from scratch.

That is why Libertarians are, to all intents and purposes, unAmerican.

The Question to be Debated in this Discussion:

Is Libertarianism unAmerican? ​

RULES FOR THIS DISCUSSION:

1. No ad hominems.
2. Dictionary definitions will prevail.
3. Claiming that you are speaking on behalf of others is forbidden.
4. What you post is de facto your opinion unless substantiated with credible links.
5. When you are asked to provide a credible link to substantiate your position you must do so or you automatically forfeit your position.
6. Links can be contested and if they can be shown to be biased they will be discounted.
7. If you are going to invoke partisan terminology then be prepared to have it called out for what it is.
8. No one is exempt from legitimate criticism including the OP.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Oh, and for those that want the link to the article that inspired this debate;

Libertarianism - the Un-American Pipe Dream that Backfires Thom Hartmann

I edited the OP because it gave the impression that Thom Hartmann had authored it himself. It wasn't.

Interestingly enough one of the comments that followed the article was revealing;

Libertarianism and Anarchism are almost identical in their outcomes, and are in fact very similar in and of themselves. I've studied Economics for the last 35 years and know that "free market" Libertarianism does in fact work in every Economic model I've ever seen. That said, it is horrible for a fair percentage of the population at any given time. Libertarianism must be "tempered" with rules, laws, compromise, etc. It then ceases to be Libertarianism in its true form. Many Social Libertarians like Noam Chomsky can show some quite remarkable Economic models which still take care of those pesky people that become homeless or starve due to Free Market Libertarianism without restraint. Libertarianism, like Communism works great in Economic models but when individual humans are involved they "gum up the works" so to speak. The basic theory of Libertarianism is quite defensible because it DOES in fact work quite well if you are willing to let about 15% of the population perish...​

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

No

 

[Statistikhengst]

In some ways, Libertarianism reminds me precisely why the Brits decided to turn Australia into a penal colony during the colonial period...

the inmates were subjected to their own rules, and there was no escape.

 

[Statistikhengst]

No

I'm sorry, can you shorten that response just a bit? You are getting windy, you know....



(ok, that was known as levity)

 

[Derideo_Te]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

I agree with this.

I knew Dave Nolan back in the 70s. I was a Richard Lamm Dem and Nolan's ideas appealed to me as being the next step in progressive liberalism. I knew Dave later in Tucson but had left there by the time he died and only heard of his death from friends.

So many ism's sound good on paper but cannot work in real life. Communism fits that description, as does capitalism but in those days, I was high on Ayn Rand and Heinlein. Then I grew up.

Now I realize Libertarianism is Anarchy Lite and is the absolute working opposite of every principle the US was founded on.

What strikes me as odd is that nowadays, so many of those who say they support the individual freedoms espoused by Libertarianism are the same people who want the most government control over such very personal freedoms as marriage equality and reproductive ownership of one's own body.

As mentioned in the OP, Libertarians don't want to pay taxes and yet, they also want to have full and free use of the very things our taxes pay for.

Seems to me that Libertarians want it both ways and don't really give much thought to the eventual outcome of such a political "system".

As I said, IMO, Libertarianism is the opposite of American participles as well as the Constitution.

 

[Mertex]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

I tend to agree with you in that respect. Some of the most basic libertarian beliefs such as lowering taxes, abolishing welfare and opting out of Social Security, while touted as good for the country by forcing people to become stronger, I believe would end up turning the United States into a third world country.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Now I realize Libertarianism is Anarchy Lite and is the absolute working opposite of every principle the US was founded on.

That's the problem. You don't know what libertarianism is.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

I tend to agree with you in that respect. Some of the most basic libertarian beliefs such as lowering taxes, abolishing welfare and opting out of Social Security, while touted as good for the country by forcing people to become stronger, I believe would end up turning the United States into a third world country.

Interesting. I never realized we were a third world country before LBJ came along.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

Now I realize Libertarianism is Anarchy Lite and is the absolute working opposite of every principle the US was founded on.

That's the problem. You don't know what libertarianism is.

Dont Taz Me Bro

Please educate me then.

I'm serious. All I know is what it was originally meant to be and what it appears to be now. If I am incorrect, I'd like to know it.

Thanks.

 

[Luddly Neddite]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

I tend to agree with you in that respect. Some of the most basic libertarian beliefs such as lowering taxes, abolishing welfare and opting out of Social Security, while touted as good for the country by forcing people to become stronger, I believe would end up turning the United States into a third world country.

Interesting. I never realized we were a third world country before LBJ came along.

Actually, it was Reagan who turned us into a debtor nation but I don't want to derail the thread.

 

[jillian]

Now I realize Libertarianism is Anarchy Lite and is the absolute working opposite of every principle the US was founded on.

That's the problem. You don't know what libertarianism is.

Libertarianism is NOT what the current crop of so-called libertarians say it is. Libertarians, at least real ones, don't stick their noses in other peoples business. Goldwater was pro-choice and supported gay rights. This new bunch is a group of angry people who don't like that government sets rules or does anything to help society.

 

[Mertex]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

I tend to agree with you in that respect. Some of the most basic libertarian beliefs such as lowering taxes, abolishing welfare and opting out of Social Security, while touted as good for the country by forcing people to become stronger, I believe would end up turning the United States into a third world country.

Interesting. I never realized we were a third world country before LBJ came along.

Where did I say we were a third world country? Did you read something into my post that wasn't there? Please explain.

 

[Carla_Danger]

Now I realize Libertarianism is Anarchy Lite and is the absolute working opposite of every principle the US was founded on.

That's the problem. You don't know what libertarianism is.

That's weird, I could have sworn I read "no ad hominems" in the rules.

Libertarian's remind me of Cafeteria Christian's, they like to pick and choose.

 

[Dot Com]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

This is true. "We the people" means ALL the people.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Oh, and for those that want the link to the article that inspired this debate;

Libertarianism - the Un-American Pipe Dream that Backfires Thom Hartmann

I edited the OP because it gave the impression that Thom Hartmann had authored it himself. It wasn't.

Interestingly enough one of the comments that followed the article was revealing;

Libertarianism and Anarchism are almost identical in their outcomes, and are in fact very similar in and of themselves. I've studied Economics for the last 35 years and know that "free market" Libertarianism does in fact work in every Economic model I've ever seen. That said, it is horrible for a fair percentage of the population at any given time. Libertarianism must be "tempered" with rules, laws, compromise, etc. It then ceases to be Libertarianism in its true form. Many Social Libertarians like Noam Chomsky can show some quite remarkable Economic models which still take care of those pesky people that become homeless or starve due to Free Market Libertarianism without restraint. Libertarianism, like Communism works great in Economic models but when individual humans are involved they "gum up the works" so to speak. The basic theory of Libertarianism is quite defensible because it DOES in fact work quite well if you are willing to let about 15% of the population perish...​

O.K. I'll bite.

I don't claim an ideology simply because I think there is a continuum and making statements (like I've seen on this board) like Democrats want this....or the GOP wants to do that.....is not correct. The GOP isn't a monolith and neither are democrats.

Having said that, I do see some libertarian in myself so I was interested in the article.

I read it...twice. I was disappointed, not only in the article as it was written (if there is a fool anywhere in the group, it appeared to be Thom Hartmann) and because you chose to use it as the basis of your argument.

You seem better than that.

With regard to the comment you posted.....

It would be great if someone actually provide the models they reference. I can only guess at what they look like.

And the person who posted the article is arguing what ?

With respect to your bolded section....someone really believes that a situation can truly exist where 15% of the population "perishes" (dies).

Can you explain how that happens ?

 

[Sun Devil 92]

No

From the perspective that Americans are free to believe in and embrace Libertarianism you are correct.

However from the pragmatic aspect if Libertarianism were to be implemented it would effectively destroy America as we know it today and that fits the definition of unAmericanism IMO.

This is true. "We the people" means ALL the people.

What is true ?

"We the people" have nothing to do with it.

There are red states and blue states...they work differently in many ways. They don't all look the same.

If Libertarians become a greater influence in New Hampshire, it will look different too. Libertarians in NH don't need conservatives in Arizona or liberals in California. This country was designed that way.

 

[Sun Devil 92]

Unfortunately Libertarians just don't understand how the Constitution and their rights actually work. Instead they want to tear it all down in a "constitutional convention" and throw out all of the rules and regulations and start from scratch.

That is why Libertarians are, to all intents and purposes, unAmerican.

Our Founding Fathers did just that....they tor it all down and threw out all the rules. And then they did it again in 1787.

Why is that so un-American ?

 

[Dogmaphobe]

The line between libertarianism and anarchism can be a bit too fine at time for my tastes. Too many so-called libertarians are little more than disgruntled misanthropes who seem to think that their sociopathy is actually a political movement. Others strike me as children who have found religion and the words they read at lewrockwell dot com are gospel.

There are some aspects of libertarian ideology I do find attractive, though, as there are with conservative or liberal ideology, and I have met some libertarians who are very intelligent and mature, and who aren't in the least bit like the perpetually pissed or the childish. I have a friend who I respect greatly who is libertarian, so I refuse to paint all with the same brush.

In general, though, I find precious few libertarians who understand that no man is an Island. They go through life imagining themselves as rugged individualists even as they drive on roads built by society, use electricity provided for them by society, are protected by a military paid for by society and who blather away on an internet that would not exist were it not for the collaboration of countless people and institutions. It is the disconnect between how they imagine themselves and how they actually live that undermines the positions they take.