Is in vitro fertilization murder?

[AllieBaba]

If we are truly concerned for the foetus, should we not also be concerned for the newly born baby in the US who has a higher chance of dying than some babies from third world countries?

Shouldn't we be concerned about the elderly who will die because the current medical system won't cover them?

If we care about the foetus, shouldn't we care equally about the person after he or she is born?

Of course. Why the supposition that somebody who thinks abortion is murder is uninterested in bettering the lives of children once they're born?

And of course, once a child is born, at least it has legal rights. An unborn child has none.

 

[Shogun]

Good question. I think that a unique human life begins at conception. Women say “Lave my body alone” but when sperm unites with egg, the result is not her body. It is a different body. Half of the genetic makeup is from the father. Therefore, the destruction of what results from such a union is murder. Yet, sometimes murder is justified under special circumstances.

a zygote is not a body. Sure, there is genetic code from a mother and father and it won't match the genetic code of the mother BUT a zygote is still enither a body, a fetus or a viable living organism. It's a cluster of cells no more worthy of such nomenclature than semen on a cum rag or the product of a 28 day cycle.

 

[AllieBaba]

Says you.

I think the mother of the first test tube baby would take exception, though.

 

[mattskramer]

a zygote is not a body. Sure, there is genetic code from a mother and father and it won't match the genetic code of the mother BUT a zygote is still enither a body, a fetus or a viable living organism. It's a cluster of cells no more worthy of such nomenclature than semen on a cum rag or the product of a 28 day cycle.

At what day, hour, minute and second does a zygote become an embryo or an embryo become a fetus, or a fetus become a baby? Where is the exact second of demarcation? I consider conception to be that point.

 

[AllieBaba]

I think he thinks it's only human once it has a beating heart.
23 days, according to wikipedia.
"Although the heart begins to beat on the 23rd day after conception, this article primarily deals with voluntary and reflex movements. Ages are given as age from fertilization rather than as gestational age."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_movement
Here are the things the non-human, non-living thing can do:

Even before the fetal stage begins, a six-week-old human embryo can arch its back and neck.[2] By seven weeks, movement in the arms and legs can be detected by ultrasound.[2] In these early movements, the limbs move together; they begin to move independently by the ninth week as the controlling neurons in the spinal cord develop.[3] At week 11, the fetus can open its mouth and suck its fingers; at week 12, it begins to swallow amniotic fluid.[4]

 

[mattskramer]

I think he thinks it's only human once it has a beating heart.
23 days, according to wikipedia.
"Although the heart begins to beat on the 23rd day after conception, this article primarily deals with voluntary and reflex movements. Ages are given as age from fertilization rather than as gestational age."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetal_movement
Here are the things the non-human, non-living thing can do:

Even before the fetal stage begins, a six-week-old human embryo can arch its back and neck.[2] By seven weeks, movement in the arms and legs can be detected by ultrasound.[2] In these early movements, the limbs move together; they begin to move independently by the ninth week as the controlling neurons in the spinal cord develop.[3] At week 11, the fetus can open its mouth and suck its fingers; at week 12, it begins to swallow amniotic fluid.[4]

I know that I got it from a biased web site but is the information statistically factual? If so, it is a surprises to me. It says that the fetus feels pain after 8 weeks - 2 months.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/online...ve_them_both_14.asp#By%208 weeks? Show me!

 

[AllieBaba]

You can find it from non-biased sites, too. The story broke big about 2 years ago that unborn babies can feel pain much, much earlier than the medical community thought.

 

[Shogun]

At what day, hour, minute and second does a zygote become an embryo or an embryo become a fetus, or a fetus become a baby? Where is the exact second of demarcation? I consider conception to be that point.

the heartbeat. There is no nervous system or brain function without a heartbeat. What you consider conception is great.. but it doesnt' make a cluster of cells the same thing as a fetus.

 

[Shogun]

I know that I got it from a biased web site but is the information statistically factual? If so, it is a surprises to me. It says that the fetus feels pain after 8 weeks - 2 months.

http://www.abortionfacts.com/online..._we_love_them_both_14.asp#By 8 weeks? Show me!

8 weeks to two months is later than a developed heartbeat and the functioning nervous system, yes?


So, a the heartbeat works as a workable compromise here. You will NEVER get pro choices to believe that a cluster of cells is a fetus just as I'll liekly never get Allie to believe that the first contact between a sperm and egg 3 minutes after coitus is anything but a viable baby. In my grand compramise neither side is getting their entire cake but they get a huge slice. Im quite tired of the abortion debate because it goes no where. Even if the pro lifers manage the pack the supreme court all it takes is pro life legislation to circumvent the courts.

 

[Shogun]

You can find it from non-biased sites, too. The story broke big about 2 years ago that unborn babies can feel pain much, much earlier than the medical community thought.

of course a fetus with a BRAIN FUNCTION and a CIRCULATORY SYSTEM and a NERVOUS SYSTEM can illicit all of those behavoiurs. Care to tell me what, exactly, a cluster of cells can do?



check it out.. It's waving at you, Allie! Look! I just saw it pick it's nose!

 

[AllieBaba]

And what will you say when science can allow them to develop normally from the point of conception on, outside a woman's uterus? That all the babies before weren't really babies?

Actually, they can do that now, via surrogate mothers.

But I'm sure it's just better to kill the little bag of snot.

 

[mattskramer]

8 weeks to two months is later than a developed heartbeat and the functioning nervous system, yes?


So, a the heartbeat works as a workable compromise here. You will NEVER get pro choices to believe that a cluster of cells is a fetus just as I'll liekly never get Allie to believe that the first contact between a sperm and egg 3 minutes after coitus is anything but a viable baby. In my grand compramise neither side is getting their entire cake but they get a huge slice. Im quite tired of the abortion debate because it goes no where. Even if the pro lifers manage the pack the supreme court all it takes is pro life legislation to circumvent the courts.

Wow. Okay. I guess we can compromise. I don’t know why, but I took you as one of the absolutist pro-choice people who think that pregnant women should be allowed to have abortions at any point of pregnancy for any reason at all. My mistake.

 

[AllieBaba]

You confused him with Jillian. Shogun's on the fence, though he won't admit it.

 

[Shogun]

Im not on the fence. Like I said, Im tired of this debate. It's old and no one is convincing anyone of anything.

My very first posted thread on this website was The Great Abortion Compromise. Needless to say it wasn't popular with people who are hellbent on insisting that four cells is a baby nor those who insist on the absolute right of privacy. I will readily concede that it makes no sense to allow abortion yet charge for two deaths in the event of an accident killing a fetus. I'll also concede that a BABY is not a cluster of cells attached to the lining of the uterus. Where to draw the line and on what logic? The heartbeat for the very reasons I've already set forth. No heartbeat, no nervous system, no brain function, no person. When the pro lifers can use science, instead of dogma, to prove that jebus comes down off of his cloud and inserts a soul into the cell cluster of a zygote then we'll talk.... Otherwise, faith, dogma and guilt trips don't prove the nature of a developing human any more than late term abortions are a matter of a single body.


The Shogun Hath Spoken


(GoooooooooooOOOOoooOOOoonnnnnggggg)

 

[Shogun]

And what will you say when science can allow them to develop normally from the point of conception on, outside a woman's uterus? That all the babies before weren't really babies?

Actually, they can do that now, via surrogate mothers.

But I'm sure it's just better to kill the little bag of snot.

then I will say that you are just as much frankenstein meddling with nature as you claim are stem cell researchers. Again, a cluster of cells is NOT a baby. Iv'e posted a pic. YOU tell me what human characteristics it's conveying to you. You can stop looking now, I was just joking about it winking and picking it's nose.

A Federal amendment on privacy would shut you right up. Sure, overturn RvW.... There is would be no need for it when America finally gets tired of opinions meddling in their constitutional liberty. I suggest you consider the value of consideration rather than castigation.

 

[AllieBaba]

Like I said. Says you.

There are many terribly deformed babies born in this world that don't look human. Are they non-babies because they don't look like a 6 month old healthy bouncing Gerber poster child?

Hardly.

And tax money is being spent to kill babies. Just as with any other health issue, those who provide the services should be obligated to provide information. It's unbelievable that we have less information on the statistics of abortion than any other health issue (including AIDS). You can compile stats without treading on anyone's privacy.

 

[bennylava]

"It's a cluster of cells no more worthy of such nomenclature than semen on a cum rag or the product of a 28 day cycle."
You are obviously a disgusting misogynist.

 

[mattskramer]

You confused him with Jillian. Shogun's on the fence, though he won't admit it.

A fence-sitter and a moderate are two different things. A fence sitter is undecided. Shogun seems to have made a specific position.

 

[AllieBaba]

But he'll change as the science does.

 

[AllieBaba]

"It's a cluster of cells no more worthy of such nomenclature than semen on a cum rag or the product of a 28 day cycle."
You are obviously a disgusting misogynist.

You have potential, after all!

And aren't you supposed to be distributing pamphlets?

It must me nice to not have to really work.