Is banning same-sex marriage fair?

[Immanuel]

Oh come on, Immie. We all feel clobbered in this.

Well, I'd like to do some of the clobbering for a change. I'm black and blue all over.

Immie

Oh you enjoyed dilloduck clobbering me.

He did? When? Where? Link please?

Immie

 

[Barb]

Are you "ALL" people? If not, you can't talk for "some" people.

Besides, I look at Sherry's statement and I see "some people" as people on both sides. There are some gay activists that I believe won't stop at a simple compromise. They will go after churches that refuse to marry homosexual couples, however, there are Religious Right idiots that won't give an inch the other way either.

Immie

Ok I'll speak for myself. I want equal rights.

Define "equal".

Has that NOT already been established over and over again?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Are you "ALL" people? If not, you can't talk for "some" people.

Besides, I look at Sherry's statement and I see "some people" as people on both sides. There are some gay activists that I believe won't stop at a simple compromise. They will go after churches that refuse to marry homosexual couples, however, there are Religious Right idiots that won't give an inch the other way either.

Immie

Ok I'll speak for myself. I want equal rights.

Works for me. You have already agreed to take credit for my compromise and claim victory. If it ends this issue, I'm glad to let you take the credit.

Immie

You can take the credit but I still get to have it all. If I agree to the civil union with full rights label then I get to keep my beautiful Buddhist ceremony and vows and title too.

 

[LuckyDan]

Well, I sure as hell wish someone would figure it out, because I'm tired of trying to stick up for the other side because I believe they have been mistreated and offering what I feel is a decent solution to the problem only to be clobbered by both sides.

Immie

That's life on the fence, Immie.

Let me suggest, respectfully and sincerely, that you reconsider exactly how much homosexuals are truly mistreated under current marriage laws, and then ask yourself if any solution is really necessary.

The only sensible reply to the whole question of whether the definition of marriage should be changed... is laughter.

That we are actually debating the idea as if it had any merit is a victory for the leftist social engineers. They haven't steered us right yet.

Well, from personal experience I can say this, homosexual couples are not treated fairly when it comes to health insurance. Many insurance companies and employers will not extend insurance benefits to unmarried, "significant others", some will not extend benefits to unmarried same sex "significant others".

That is just one problem that I do know of and have seen happen.

My religious beliefs aside, I do not think that the government should play a part in allowing those kinds of things to happen.

Immie

That's a regulatory issue for state insurance boards to take up with the carriers in their states, so, yeah, governement would have to play a role in changing the law.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Ok I'll speak for myself. I want equal rights.

Define "equal".

Has that NOT already been established over and over again?

Thank you Barb. I'm exhausted.

Whether or not you favor marriage as a social institution, there's no denying that it confers many rights, protections, and benefits -- both legal and practical. Some of these vary from state to state, but the list typically includes:
Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.
Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Death Benefits
Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
Applying for joint foster care rights.
Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
Note that if you are in a same-sex marriage in one of the five states where same-sex marriage is allowed (Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont) or a domestic partnership or civil union in any of the states that offer those relationship options, none of the benefits of marriage under federal law will apply to you, because the federal government does not recognize these same-sex relationships. For example, you may not file joint federal income tax returns with your partner, even if your state allows you to file jointly. And other federal benefits, such as Social Security death benefits and COBRA continuation insurance coverage, may not apply.

 

[Immanuel]

Ok I'll speak for myself. I want equal rights.

Works for me. You have already agreed to take credit for my compromise and claim victory. If it ends this issue, I'm glad to let you take the credit.

Immie

You can take the credit but I still get to have it all. If I agree to the civil union with full rights label then I get to keep my beautiful Buddhist ceremony and vows and title too.

I thought that was already established long ago.

I've no problem with that.

Immie

 

[Sky Dancer]

Works for me. You have already agreed to take credit for my compromise and claim victory. If it ends this issue, I'm glad to let you take the credit.

Immie

You can take the credit but I still get to have it all. If I agree to the civil union with full rights label then I get to keep my beautiful Buddhist ceremony and vows and title too.

I thought that was already established long ago.

I've no problem with that.

Immie

It's all wishful thinking anyway. It'll never happen in my lifetime.

 

[Immanuel]

That's life on the fence, Immie.

Let me suggest, respectfully and sincerely, that you reconsider exactly how much homosexuals are truly mistreated under current marriage laws, and then ask yourself if any solution is really necessary.

The only sensible reply to the whole question of whether the definition of marriage should be changed... is laughter.

That we are actually debating the idea as if it had any merit is a victory for the leftist social engineers. They haven't steered us right yet.

Well, from personal experience I can say this, homosexual couples are not treated fairly when it comes to health insurance. Many insurance companies and employers will not extend insurance benefits to unmarried, "significant others", some will not extend benefits to unmarried same sex "significant others".

That is just one problem that I do know of and have seen happen.

My religious beliefs aside, I do not think that the government should play a part in allowing those kinds of things to happen.

Immie

That's a regulatory issue for state insurance boards to take up with the carriers in their states, so, yeah, governement would have to play a role in changing the law.

Yet it happens and it is unfair to same sex couples.

I have to say that I don't think Jesus would be associated with the thinking of the Religious Right on this issue, which is why I struggle with this issue so much. I can say, that I am not certain what Jesus would do, but I can tell you that I do not believe that he would associate himself with the modern day Pharisees.

Immie

 

[Againsheila]

Ok I'll speak for myself. I want equal rights.

Define "equal".

Has that NOT already been established over and over again?

Not for me. If equal means they have the right to force a Church to marry them in-spite of the Church's beliefs, then I'm against it. If equal means they get to pay the marriage tax penalty as the rest of us do, then what the heck.....

 

[LuckyDan]

Well, from personal experience I can say this, homosexual couples are not treated fairly when it comes to health insurance. Many insurance companies and employers will not extend insurance benefits to unmarried, "significant others", some will not extend benefits to unmarried same sex "significant others".

That is just one problem that I do know of and have seen happen.

My religious beliefs aside, I do not think that the government should play a part in allowing those kinds of things to happen.

Immie

That's a regulatory issue for state insurance boards to take up with the carriers in their states, so, yeah, governement would have to play a role in changing the law.

Yet it happens and it is unfair to same sex couples.

I have to say that I don't think Jesus would be associated with the thinking of the Religious Right on this issue, which is why I struggle with this issue so much. I can say, that I am not certain what Jesus would do, but I can tell you that I do not believe that he would associate himself with the modern day Pharisees.

Immie

But you just said it also happens to opposite sex couples.

And remember it was the Pharisees who played the word games and kept the law. By that analogy, the only Pharisee I see in this little episode is Judge Walker.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Bless Judge Walker.

 

[Immanuel]

That's a regulatory issue for state insurance boards to take up with the carriers in their states, so, yeah, governement would have to play a role in changing the law.

Yet it happens and it is unfair to same sex couples.

I have to say that I don't think Jesus would be associated with the thinking of the Religious Right on this issue, which is why I struggle with this issue so much. I can say, that I am not certain what Jesus would do, but I can tell you that I do not believe that he would associate himself with the modern day Pharisees.

Immie

But you just said it also happens to opposite sex couples.

And remember it was the Pharisees who played the word games and kept the law. By that analogy, the only Pharisee I see in this little episode is Judge Walker.

Bless Judge Walker.

I had no idea who Judge Walker is. Had to look him up.

He's not a modern day Pharisee. The people that I see... oh shit, this is going to get me in a heck of a lot of trouble with some people, I can already feel it... are the Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons of the world.

Now, before you go hating on me, know this, I really, really used to like James Dobson, but then he went political and I feel like he has sold out his faith for political power. It is a tragedy in my book.

They are the "Holier than thou" crowd. Always preaching law and seemingly forgetting the gospel.

Immie

 

[LuckyDan]

Yet it happens and it is unfair to same sex couples.

I have to say that I don't think Jesus would be associated with the thinking of the Religious Right on this issue, which is why I struggle with this issue so much. I can say, that I am not certain what Jesus would do, but I can tell you that I do not believe that he would associate himself with the modern day Pharisees.

Immie

But you just said it also happens to opposite sex couples.

And remember it was the Pharisees who played the word games and kept the law. By that analogy, the only Pharisee I see in this little episode is Judge Walker.

Bless Judge Walker.

I had no idea who Judge Walker is. Had to look him up.

He's not a modern day Pharisee. The people that I see... oh shit, this is going to get me in a heck of a lot of trouble with some people, I can already feel it... are the Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons of the world.

Now, before you go hating on me, know this, I really, really used to like James Dobson, but then he went political and I feel like he has sold out his faith for political power. It is a tragedy in my book.

They are the "Holier than thou" crowd. Always preaching law and seemingly forgetting the gospel.

Immie

Relax. I'm not hating on anybody. I just want to clarify the terms is all. Everybody should live and be well.

 

[Barb]

Define "equal".

Has that NOT already been established over and over again?

Not for me. If equal means they have the right to force a Church to marry them in-spite of the Church's beliefs, then I'm against it. If equal means they get to pay the marriage tax penalty as the rest of us do, then what the heck.....

Equal = the state issuing the same license to all.
The individual churches get to decide which they deem to "bless" in ceremony.

I don't even LIKE the idea of matrimony.
I'd rather find someone who hates me and buy them a house.
Cut out a lot of worthless stress that way.
Other people find matrimony to be a whole different thing.
I think all who do should be able to do SO.
Live and let, for chrissakes.
Or whatever ethical equivalent you can relate to.

 

[Immanuel]

But you just said it also happens to opposite sex couples.

And remember it was the Pharisees who played the word games and kept the law. By that analogy, the only Pharisee I see in this little episode is Judge Walker.

Bless Judge Walker.

I had no idea who Judge Walker is. Had to look him up.

He's not a modern day Pharisee. The people that I see... oh shit, this is going to get me in a heck of a lot of trouble with some people, I can already feel it... are the Pat Robertsons and James Dobsons of the world.

Now, before you go hating on me, know this, I really, really used to like James Dobson, but then he went political and I feel like he has sold out his faith for political power. It is a tragedy in my book.

They are the "Holier than thou" crowd. Always preaching law and seemingly forgetting the gospel.

Immie

Relax. I'm not hating on anybody. I just want to clarify the terms is all. Everybody should live and be well.

Actually, the "you" in there was the generic you, because I know some people out there that won't take too kindly to me dissing Father Pat or Brother James.

Immie

 

[Barb]

Define "equal".

Has that NOT already been established over and over again?

Thank you Barb. I'm exhausted.

Whether or not you favor marriage as a social institution, there's no denying that it confers many rights, protections, and benefits -- both legal and practical. Some of these vary from state to state, but the list typically includes:
Tax Benefits
Filing joint income tax returns with the IRS and state taxing authorities.
Creating a "family partnership" under federal tax laws, which allows you to divide business income among family members.
Estate Planning Benefits
Inheriting a share of your spouse's estate.
Receiving an exemption from both estate taxes and gift taxes for all property you give or leave to your spouse.
Creating life estate trusts that are restricted to married couples, including QTIP trusts, QDOT trusts, and marital deduction trusts.
Obtaining priority if a conservator needs to be appointed for your spouse -- that is, someone to make financial and/or medical decisions on your spouse's behalf.
Government Benefits
Receiving Social Security, Medicare, and disability benefits for spouses.
Receiving veterans' and military benefits for spouses, such as those for education, medical care, or special loans.
Receiving public assistance benefits.
Employment Benefits
Obtaining insurance benefits through a spouse's employer.
Taking family leave to care for your spouse during an illness.
Receiving wages, workers' compensation, and retirement plan benefits for a deceased spouse.
Taking bereavement leave if your spouse or one of your spouse's close relatives dies.
Medical Benefits
Visiting your spouse in a hospital intensive care unit or during restricted visiting hours in other parts of a medical facility.
Making medical decisions for your spouse if he or she becomes incapacitated and unable to express wishes for treatment.
Death Benefits
Consenting to after-death examinations and procedures.
Making burial or other final arrangements.
Family Benefits
Filing for stepparent or joint adoption.
Applying for joint foster care rights.
Receiving equitable division of property if you divorce.
Receiving spousal or child support, child custody, and visitation if you divorce.
Housing Benefits
Living in neighborhoods zoned for "families only."
Automatically renewing leases signed by your spouse.
Consumer Benefits
Receiving family rates for health, homeowners', auto, and other types of insurance.
Receiving tuition discounts and permission to use school facilities.
Other consumer discounts and incentives offered only to married couples or families.
Other Legal Benefits and Protections
Suing a third person for wrongful death of your spouse and loss of consortium (loss of intimacy).
Suing a third person for offenses that interfere with the success of your marriage, such as alienation of affection and criminal conversation (these laws are available in only a few states).
Claiming the marital communications privilege, which means a court can't force you to disclose the contents of confidential communications between you and your spouse during your marriage.
Receiving crime victims' recovery benefits if your spouse is the victim of a crime.
Obtaining immigration and residency benefits for noncitizen spouse.
Visiting rights in jails and other places where visitors are restricted to immediate family.
Note that if you are in a same-sex marriage in one of the five states where same-sex marriage is allowed (Connecticut, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, and Vermont) or a domestic partnership or civil union in any of the states that offer those relationship options, none of the benefits of marriage under federal law will apply to you, because the federal government does not recognize these same-sex relationships. For example, you may not file joint federal income tax returns with your partner, even if your state allows you to file jointly. And other federal benefits, such as Social Security death benefits and COBRA continuation insurance coverage, may not apply.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Sky Dancer again.

I'm tired too. Good night everyone.

 

[JBeukema]

All this discussion about the prop 8 ruling got me thinking about this from a very simple perspective. Is it fair to deny marriage to same-sex couples?

If you can, for the purposes of this discussion please do not introduce any arguments related to the Constitution, rights, or anything else of a legal nature.

It's a very simple philosophical question:

Is it fair to deny marriage to same-sex couples?

Why? Why not?



PS: Please know that declaring fair ain't got nothin' to do with it may contain some truth, but also betrays the author's implicit belief that it is not fair.

It's fair in the respect that NO one gets everything they want. How many people in this world have accepted that fact already and moved on ? Victimhood is a pitiful way to spend one's life.

Print that out, find a mailbox that goes back in time, and mail that to the blacks

 

[JBeukema]

It is their right to do so.

And it's my right to oppose them.

I know---totally unable to sacrifice lower order freedoms for higher order freedoms. You prefer to piss and moan about people who think differently than you instead of enjoying what you have.

What 'higher freedom' are they getting by being denied equality before the law?

 

[JBeukema]

Nothing is unfair about maintaining and protecting traditional marriage.

Which tradition?

Kidnapping a virgin and her becoming your bride if she can't escape for three days?

A woman being forced to marry her rapist?

A woman marrying her dead husband's brother?

Marrying your sister like Abraham?

Polygamy?

Selling your daughter to the highest bidder? (GET YOUR VIRGIN HERE! HER CHERRY GOES TO THE HIGHEST DOWRY!)

Or maybe we can choose the polyandrous traditions found in some societies?

Tell me, which tradition do you want to hearken back to? How 'bout we go back to just 1974, the year before the First U.S. State (South Dakota) outlawed spousal rape?

Maybe we go back to marrying girls off at thirteen or fourteen? Arranged marriages, perhaps?

Which tradition is traditional traditional enough for you? It being practiced longer makes it more traditional, then you're going to end up with a system few would tolerate in a modern civilized society.

If you want to lead a homosexual life, you are free to do so, but in making that choice you are opting out of marriage.

people used to say the same thing about choosing the miscegenationary lifestyle...

 

[JBeukema]

Why insist on a revolutionary change in a centuries old tradition ?

You mean like when we went from arranged marriages to letting women have a say? Or when monogamy became not only popular, but the only legally recognized form of marriage?