Is America To Blame?

[iamwhatiseem]

Why is it that a person who loves what America stands for must be an "extreme right"?

 

[Trajan]

we can start with the easy one;

1. (Government, Politics & Diplomacy) the policy or practice of extending a state's rule over other territories: Yep

explain please?

Crap! Have you read the history of the banana republics of south america? How in the hell do you think that the name came about?

No, we are hardly the only nation guilty of that kind of economic and political aggression. The European nations have been doing for far longer than there has been a US.

yes I have, and again thats hardly imperialistic, we generally wanted trade on our terms of course and spptted people in office we should not have. No argument there.

WE never ruled them, ever heard the term; " hes an sob but hes our sob" ? We hooked up with those that would help sppt. our self interests, that would sppt. our US policies in place, we left them alone to do it and did step in with covert and not so covert help when we thought they needed it...the everyday running of their countries was, for good or bad, theirs. Our help and influence as admittedly uhm, sometimes schizophrenic to be sure.

I'd say we have come along way from that attitude, Colombia being one example and an example that we did have push back against forces in some cases outside those nations controls, be it narco terrorists or the soviets.

 

[Rozman]

I think it's only fair that when there is a Hurricane,flood,earthquake,famine,invasion, such as Iraq invading Kuwait America should stay out of it and not send aid of any kind.Maybe then the Lefties will again be proud of their country just like Michelle Obama.Let these countries fend for themselves.

 

[Trajan]

: Originally Posted by Dr Grump View Post
Take all the emotion out of the argument and let's get to the basic premise. What do you guys think of American hegemony, or 'imperialism' for want of a better word - whether it be economical or militarily?

I find it weird/bizarre/strange that a lot of the extreme right in America (and on this board) are all about "freedom", "pursuit of happiness", "freedom of speech" yadda, yadda, yadda, yet your country has absolutely no problems interferring in the inner mechanisms of other countries - overtly (Iraq/Afghanistan/Panama), or covertly (Chile/Central America)..

How do you marry both trains of thought and not expect some kind of payback?

Just wonderin'.....

thats not imperialism, have we backed off that term now? or are you going to insist on confining it to a winsome definition that fits a meager view of the term and its historical practical meaning?

 

[Toro]

It is an interesting question.

America, like all Great Powers, acts mainly in its interest. Most countries do. This is why America supports some of the most repressive and brutal regimes on the planet, such as Saudi Arabia. It is why it supported Saddam Hussein when it was convenient to do so. It is why the US has supported brutal and sometimes vicious thugs in Latin America. Supporting such awful regimes is definitely contrary to what America stands for.

There is a deep psychological force in human nature to believe that "we" are good, to save face. Americans are no different. Everyone is like that. Very few own up to their misdeeds. And America has done some bad things. Americans don't like to be told that. All nations have their myths. America is no different. It is important in nationalism and to the citizens of the nations. Great things are accentuated, bad things are forgotten or whitewashed. Americans do this. But so does everyone else.

What I think most non-Americans don't understand is that America stands at the forefront of defending western democracy, freedom and ideals. (To some extent, Britain does this too.) There is no doubt that America meddles too much in the affairs of other nations. That is the nature of what political scientists call "The Great Game." But there are those who do wish to impose their despotic and brutal visions and regimes onto the rest of the world. America stands on the front lines battling these people.

The bombing of Serbia is a great example. As Europe twiddled its thumbs while the Serbians were committing genocide, they were unable to act against Serbia. Not only did they not have the will, but they didn't have the ability. America had no interest in getting involved in Serbia. None. There was no national interest for America to do so. But America was the only country in the world that could stop the genocide. So they did, or at least put tremendous pressure on the Serbians to do so.

Americans like to believe that they are only a force of good. That is wrong. They have done some bad things. Many, especially those on the right, refuse to acknowledge this. And they don't understand that their presence and interference causes resentment and hostility for some. American troops in Saudi Arabia is highly unpopular, as it was seen as propping up a corrupt monarchy, as well as despoiling the holy grounds of a great religion.

But America is the bulwark against the barbarism of Islamic fundamentalism. It is on the very frontlines battling Islamic fundamental tyranny. You can argue that America sometimes takes it too far, but Islamic fundamentalism is a threat to western ideals and way of life, and it is America which is leading the battle against their barbarism.

To me, the greatest symbol of American ideals conveyed from the outside world I have ever seen is this one.

This is a makeshift statue mimicking the Statue of Liberty the student protesters created during the Tiananman Square protests in China in 1989. This is the symbol of liberty and freedom they held up as their ideal that they wanted. They didn't hold up the Eiffel Tower. They didn't hold up Big Ben. They didn't hold up the Sydney Opera House, or The Peace Tower, or the Aya Sofia. They held up the ubiquitous symbol of American freedom, liberty and democracy.

That's America.

 

[Charles_Main]

It is an interesting question.

America, like all Great Powers, acts mainly in its interest. Most countries do. This is why America supports some of the most repressive and brutal regimes on the planet, such as Saudi Arabia. It is why it supported Saddam Hussein when it was convenient to do so.

So did we, but at the world was a much differnt place then. We support Iraq against Iran because the USSR was supporting Iran. Period.

we did many things, that have come back to bite us in the ass, in the name of defeating the soviets. Regrettable yes, but I am still glad my kids do not have to grow up in the world I did. Where we all thought total nuclear War could happen at any moment.

 

[Charles_Main]

It is an interesting question.

America, like all Great Powers, acts mainly in its interest. Most countries do. This is why America supports some of the most repressive and brutal regimes on the planet, such as Saudi Arabia. It is why it supported Saddam Hussein when it was convenient to do so.

So did we, but at that time the world was a much different place then now. We support Iraq against Iran because the USSR was supporting Iran. Period.

we did many things, that have come back to bite us in the ass, in the name of defeating the soviets. Regrettable yes, but I am still glad my kids do not have to grow up in the world I did. Where we all thought total nuclear War could happen at any moment.

We support Saudi today for solid reasons as well. Yes they suck ass, but there are worse, and Saudi is just part of our plan to keep those people in check. Plain and simple. well that and to try and assure access to affordable Oil. Not that we take their oil, we just want to make sure it is on a market we can access.

 

[xotoxi]

Take all the emotion out of the argument and let's get to the basic premise. What do you guys think of American hegemony, or 'imperialism' for want of a better word - whether it be economical or militarily?

I find it weird/bizarre/strange that a lot of the extreme right in America (and on this board) are all about "freedom", "pursuit of happiness", "freedom of speech" yadda, yadda, yadda, yet your country has absolutely no problems interferring in the inner mechanisms of other countries - overtly (Iraq/Afghanistan/Panama), or covertly (Chile/Central America)..

How do you marry both trains of thought and not expect some kind of payback?

Just wonderin'.....

It's because all of the other countries are there to serve us.

As citizens, we have rights granted by our Constitution. People in other countries do not.

 

[xotoxi]

Regrettable yes, but I am still glad my kids do not have to grow up in the world I did. Where we all thought total nuclear War could happen at any moment.

Instead they are growing up in a world with ACTUAL threats.

 

[xotoxi]

Regrettable yes, but I am still glad my kids do not have to grow up in the world I did. Where we all thought total nuclear War could happen at any moment.

Soviet Union as was perceived...

Soviet Union in reality...

 

[Trajan]

It is an interesting question.

America, like all Great Powers, acts mainly in its interest. Most countries do. This is why America supports some of the most repressive and brutal regimes on the planet, such as Saudi Arabia. It is why it supported Saddam Hussein when it was convenient to do so. It is why the US has supported brutal and sometimes vicious thugs in Latin America. Supporting such awful regimes is definitely contrary to what America stands for.

There is a deep psychological force in human nature to believe that "we" are good, to save face. Americans are no different. Everyone is like that. Very few own up to their misdeeds. And America has done some bad things. Americans don't like to be told that. All nations have their myths. America is no different. It is important in nationalism and to the citizens of the nations. Great things are accentuated, bad things are forgotten or whitewashed. Americans do this. But so does everyone else.

What I think most non-Americans don't understand is that America stands at the forefront of defending western democracy, freedom and ideals. (To some extent, Britain does this too.) There is no doubt that America meddles too much in the affairs of other nations. That is the nature of what political scientists call "The Great Game." But there are those who do wish to impose their despotic and brutal visions and regimes onto the rest of the world. America stands on the front lines battling these people.

The bombing of Serbia is a great example. As Europe twiddled its thumbs while the Serbians were committing genocide, they were unable to act against Serbia. Not only did they not have the will, but they didn't have the ability. America had no interest in getting involved in Serbia. None. There was no national interest for America to do so. But America was the only country in the world that could stop the genocide. So they did, or at least put tremendous pressure on the Serbians to do so.

Americans like to believe that they are only a force of good. That is wrong. They have done some bad things. Many, especially those on the right, refuse to acknowledge this. And they don't understand that their presence and interference causes resentment and hostility for some. American troops in Saudi Arabia is highly unpopular, as it was seen as propping up a corrupt monarchy, as well as despoiling the holy grounds of a great religion.

But America is the bulwark against the barbarism of Islamic fundamentalism. It is on the very frontlines battling Islamic fundamental tyranny. You can argue that America sometimes takes it too far, but Islamic fundamentalism is a threat to western ideals and way of life, and it is America which is leading the battle against their barbarism.

To me, the greatest symbol of American ideals conveyed from the outside world I have ever seen is this one.



This is a makeshift statue mimicking the Statue of Liberty the student protesters created during the Tiananman Square protests in China in 1989. This is the symbol of liberty and freedom they held up as their ideal that they wanted. They didn't hold up the Eiffel Tower. They didn't hold up Big Ben. They didn't hold up the Sydney Opera House, or The Peace Tower, or the Aya Sofia. They held up the ubiquitous symbol of American freedom, liberty and democracy.

That's America.

I applaud your view-point, balance is something not easily come by.

Yes America has done a great deal of harm, after www2 especially we found ourselves in a spot that 10 years earlier was unimaginable. While Europe and nations in the far east re-built, we having the largest army navy air force etc. having been that arsenal democracy inherited it appears the responsibility to help make things right by attempting to rebuild much of the world and take the lead in doing so.

Geo-politics being what it is, as you said the” great game” , it required that we lay down with dogs and get up with fleas.

As mitigation I offer that we had an adversary, not sought, but one which none the less saw itself as an arbiter of what the aftermath of ww2 would look like ion a global scale. They had a diametrically opposing viewpoint, totally contrary to the very forces which had united just a year earlier to defeat what those collection of democracies saw as the great evil, Nazi Germany. Little did we suspect there was one lurking in the background and to extent our troubles were just beginning.

The cold war was in a very real sense a tit for tat global game, they move there, we move here to counter, and there in we had to align ourselves with folks whom we would absent that struggle we would probably have left very much to their own. I think that along the way to trying to keep folks on the right side of the fence we did things we wish we had not and but felt compelled to do and in the end the right side prevailed.

That being said my objection is this requirement or idea that we be held to a standard that is completely unattainable. Further that in all of the critique and moral relativism employed to denigrate us, there is little truth spoken in that no nation whom has had and held the power we did, has been so lenient, benign and benevolent in the entire history of the world, to those they defeated and to those around them in a general sense.

So holding us up to such an unattainable standard leaves only one place to go it appears, and that’s down. And as we know it is far easier to critique than it is to take the time to reiterate and detail, even remember the good as the bad comes at once and in singular form that makes it easy to pick apart. Not much is said of the greater evils we defeated or squelched along the way, only the guilt seems to hang in the air, not much is made of hat if, what if we had collapsed , what if say the USSR had attained primacy in Europe? Or the Far East?

The ME belongs to a newer chapter I believe, yet the same old axioms and geo-politics apply. I think we will basically repeat same, mistakes with great advance, as of now its to soon to tell.

 

[JiggsCasey]

Every fucking time there is a problem - anywhere in the world - everybody looks at us and says 'fix it'. And we do. We may not always do it the way the world wants but thems the breaks.

This is just completely inaccurate, and lazy pejorative. "Every... anywhere.... everybody." Could you BE more dramatic? And what's with the F-bombs every sentence? Does that really bring your argument home? LOL.

You want us to stop? Fine. Fix it your fucking selves.

Please try and get over yourself.

What's this "us" all about? What did YOU do at the State Dept., exactly? I mean, besides a whole plethora of nothing?

But seriously, the world solves plenty of their own problems without calling on the U.S. Plenty. Most important, as the U.S. grows increasingly BROKE, in large part due to their EXISTING unsolicited hegemony, it won't be able to assist for real causes anymore anyway.

Seems when we are wanted, we're everybody's best friend. When we do it because WE need to, we're the worst country on the planet. There are only so many times we will bail the asses of the world out and get slammed for it. One of these days, you'll need us and we'll say 'fuck it, you broke it, you fix it'... See how you like that.

More vague, unquantifiable, unfalsifiable claims based on nothing but emotion and "feeling."

But "you broke it, you fix it..." .... Now there's a mantra your heroes should have taken a good look at in 2001-2003. But, oops.

 

[AmericanFirst]

We support Iraq against Iran because the USSR was supporting Iran. Period.

we did many things, that have come back to bite us in the ass, in the name of defeating the soviets. Regrettable yes, but I am still glad my kids do not have to grow up in the world I did. Where we all thought total nuclear War could happen at any moment.

That is not true. We overthrew Iran's secular democracy for oil interests in 1953. We installed the Shah who ruled through brutal repression from 1953 until 1979's Islamic Revolution caused by the Shah's brutal dictatorship we supported.

We then got mad that Iran overthrew this brutal dictator and then encouraged and supported Saddam's illegal invasion of Iran and then gave him chemical weapons to use on Iran and its Iraqi Shiite supporters inside Iraq.

We then claimed whata bad guy Saddam was and invaded him for doing the things we encouraged.

Saddam was told it was okay to invade Kuwait by the U.S. He thought it was payback for his war on Iran for U.S./Iraqi interests.

He did not invade Kuwait before getting the okay from US ambassador April Glaspie whose assurances to Saddam came from the highest levels of U.S. government.

I especialy like the famous pictire of Rumsfled shaking hands with Saddam as he sealed the now infamous chemical weapons deal with Saddam.

This is great, you just stated that the U.S. sold saddam chemicle weapons. You just made a liar out of every lying piece of shit leftie that Saddam Hussein did not have weapons of mass destruction. We all know he did he used them on the kurds. So Bush was justified, thanks.

 

[hipeter924]

Who is to blame?

*The corrupt politicians who were in the pay book of weapons companies.

*The people who believed that the middle east could be saved from being the cesspool of the world (after Africa of course).

*Leftists who for years bitched about the evils of American imperialism while turning a blind eye to Saddam's invasion of Kuwait, the USSR's invasion of Europe and Afghanistan , as well as China's invasion of Tibet and India (funny how they applauded China then and condemn it now).

*People like Michael Moore and other self obsessed celebrities that like to blame everyone else for their own mistakes and blame the right for everything from Hitler (even though he was a National Socialist as well as a Fascist), to Pol Pot (even though he was a Chinese Communist and he was majority backed by China), and even Islamic terrorism (even though it began as a result of leftist policies such as Communist attitudes towards religion and an obsession of trying to change the world 'for the better'). .

*Finally egoistical sell outs like Noel Chomsky that think a million dollar paycheck and writing a book gives them the right to insult and demean everyone that can't afford to fly around the world demonizing the very western values and way of life that allows him to speak freely in the first place.

Enough from me, as some leftist will come along quite soon to accuse me of lying, being 'incorrect' or even blaming everything I stated there as crimes of the right (as usual) or creating mythical crimes that never happened.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

Take all the emotion out of the argument and let's get to the basic premise. What do you guys think of American hegemony, or 'imperialism' for want of a better word - whether it be economical or militarily?

I find it weird/bizarre/strange that a lot of the extreme right in America (and on this board) are all about "freedom", "pursuit of happiness", "freedom of speech" yadda, yadda, yadda, yet your country has absolutely no problems interferring in the inner mechanisms of other countries - overtly (Iraq/Afghanistan/Panama), or covertly (Chile/Central America)..

How do you marry both trains of thought and not expect some kind of payback?

Just wonderin'.....

the left is to blame.

 

[editec]

I think that the American military and taxpayer is being used to pay for rich men's wars.

That doesn't make us unique, of course. Such has been the story since antiquity.

We're just the latest in a long long of people unfortunate enough to be living in an Empire.

 

[lizzie]

Well, there was a perceived shock at 9-11 occurring by members of the US public. I'm not talking shock at the ACTUAL event - that is a given, but the kind "I can't believe this happened to us" and "why" did it happen.

Of all the thoughts that went through my mind that day, not ONCE did I think those two thoughts. I was not surprised at all that it happened, nor why it happened. So I guess that is the 'payback' element of the OP...

Ahh- okay. From that standpoint, no, I don't think we deserved any kind of "payback". At that point, we were not yet in Iraq or Afghanistan. What do you think they were paying us back for?

Not being Muslims.

Do you really think so? I've been a bit confused as to exactly what was perceived to be our crime against them. Is it our obvious decadence as compared to what their faith allows? Was it the fact that we buy our oil from the region, and they see us as a bad influence in their part of the world? Do they hate us because we don't, as a nation, hate Israel? Was it an attack based on religious ideology, political ideology, or both? I really can't quite put my finger on where the hatred of us comes from, and if I could, I don't think it would make acceptance any easier.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Ahh- okay. From that standpoint, no, I don't think we deserved any kind of "payback". At that point, we were not yet in Iraq or Afghanistan. What do you think they were paying us back for?

Not being Muslims.

Do you really think so? I've been a bit confused as to exactly what was perceived to be our crime against them. Is it our obvious decadence as compared to what their faith allows? Was it the fact that we buy our oil from the region, and they see us as a bad influence in their part of the world? Do they hate us because we don't, as a nation, hate Israel? Was it an attack based on religious ideology, political ideology, or both? I really can't quite put my finger on where the hatred of us comes from, and if I could, I don't think it would make acceptance any easier.

Our military in their holy land, or embargoes that kill innocent people, or bombings that kill innocent people? I think it's pretty easy to put a finger on it really.

 

[jillian]

Our military in their holy land, or embargoes that kill innocent people, or bombings that kill innocent people? I think it's pretty easy to put a finger on it really.

our military was in *thier* holy land at the behest of the saudi government. the anger should have been elsewhere.

it was an excuse....... not a reason.

not 'easy to put a finger on' at all.

if it were about that, AQ wouldn't have set off bombs in spain or in london's metro.

you need to look closer.

 

[Kevin_Kennedy]

Our military in their holy land, or embargoes that kill innocent people, or bombings that kill innocent people? I think it's pretty easy to put a finger on it really.

our military was in *thier* holy land at the behest of the saudi government. the anger should have been elsewhere.

it was an excuse....... not a reason.

not 'easy to put a finger on' at all.

if it were about that, AQ wouldn't have set off bombs in spain or in london's metro.

you need to look closer.

And is the Saudi government seen as legit by al-Qaeda or puppets of the U.S.? Yes, AQ's reasons for hating us are simply excuses by them, however they use those excuses to convince others to join them and commit terrorist acts. al-Qaeda doesn't care that the U.S. is on Muslim holy land, they care that the U.S. is in a country that they'd like to take over. But which argument will turn more people to their cause? AQ doesn't care about the deaths of innocent civilians, but they'll use it to recruit people who do. As for bombing Spain and London, was that before or after those countries were part of the Coalition?