Irreducible complexity

[Magnificat]

OK. Let's try this. How many parts would it take you to build a car? You can't do it with one part. You can't do it with two, three, or even a dozen. No matter how few parts you use, you will reach a point where you cannot remove anything and have it function. That is the point of this thread. Prove me wrong.

Then that is what you should have said. Now, is there a number requirement for wheels, or can you used just 1? Is there any requirement as far as the power source? And, is an enclosed passenger area required, or can it be open? Those are all questions you should answer before trying again, otherwise, every time you change something, you are simply moving the goalposts.

Righties never think things through.

Nope. Lefties are simply wilfully ignorant, not to mention deceitful and intellectually dishonest.

Now THAT is a nonproductive attitude.

Listening to lefties is also nonproductive .

 

[alang1216]

If you can prove it was a minimalist car, then Darwin was wrong. The idiot admitted so himself.

Its amazing how many believe in evolution. Especially since nothing it claims can be verified by the scientific method. Real scientific throries can be falsified. Evolution cannot. It is not a theory. Its a philosophy that requires faith to believe in.

Quite untrue, evolution can easily be falsified. The theory predicts that we'll find fossils in a particular sequence. If a fossil is ever found that contradicts the theory, the theory must be false. We've found trillions of fossils and every single one supports the ToE.

If someone found a proven falsifier, say a horse with a dinosaur, that person would be an instantly famous celebrity.

Guess what? They have already discovered fossils that are out of sequence. Thousands of them. So much for that theory. Lol!

Link?

Rock layers may be flipped but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Fossils may burrow into older sediments and get buried there but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Both cases are easily recognized by scientists.

The whole idea of a geologic column is simply ridiculous. Here. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.
Geological Column and Inherent Problems - Creation Studies Institute

You read the website of an anti-science group and you think you know more than trained scientists? That offends me.

You site is replete with errors and straw men. Here's just one example:

The Geological Column concept also relies on the presupposition that long periods of time elapsed between each stratum.
​

That is absurd. Certainly some formations take a long time (e.g., chalk cliffs of Dover are the remains of diatoms that settled to the sea floor over an enormous time period) but some are almost instantaneous (e.g., flood deposits and volcanic eruptions). Both these cases are well documented by science.

It is education and knowledge, not ignorance, that offends you.

 

[WinterBorn]

If you can prove it was a minimalist car, then Darwin was wrong. The idiot admitted so himself.

Its amazing how many believe in evolution. Especially since nothing it claims can be verified by the scientific method. Real scientific throries can be falsified. Evolution cannot. It is not a theory. Its a philosophy that requires faith to believe in.

Quite untrue, evolution can easily be falsified. The theory predicts that we'll find fossils in a particular sequence. If a fossil is ever found that contradicts the theory, the theory must be false. We've found trillions of fossils and every single one supports the ToE.

If someone found a proven falsifier, say a horse with a dinosaur, that person would be an instantly famous celebrity.

Guess what? They have already discovered fossils that are out of sequence. Thousands of them. So much for that theory. Lol!

Link?

Rock layers may be flipped but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Fossils may burrow into older sediments and get buried there but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Both cases are easily recognized by scientists.

The whole idea of a geologic column is simply ridiculous. Here. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.
Geological Column and Inherent Problems - Creation Studies Institute

The geological column works. But the Earth is not stagnant. The crust shifts, mountains rise, and the columns get moved. But not out of sequence.

Post a link showing that fossils are found out of sequence. Your own ignorance is showing here.

 

[WinterBorn]

OK. Let's try this. How many parts would it take you to build a car? You can't do it with one part. You can't do it with two, three, or even a dozen. No matter how few parts you use, you will reach a point where you cannot remove anything and have it function. That is the point of this thread. Prove me wrong.

Then that is what you should have said. Now, is there a number requirement for wheels, or can you used just 1? Is there any requirement as far as the power source? And, is an enclosed passenger area required, or can it be open? Those are all questions you should answer before trying again, otherwise, every time you change something, you are simply moving the goalposts.

Righties never think things through.

Nope. Lefties are simply wilfully ignorant, not to mention deceitful and intellectually dishonest.

Now THAT is a nonproductive attitude.

Listening to lefties is also nonproductive .

I do not consider myself a "leftie". But I do consider people who lie to further their agenda to be nonproductive.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Magnificat has shown they know zero about mechanics, cars, or spirituality.

 

[Magnificat]

So, the car parts just randomly throw themselves against each other and make new and better cars. Interesting

It's odd how this thread morphed. The idea of the OP was to attempt an analogy to show irreducible complexity is an argument against evolution (and cars).

To continue the analogy by saying cars don't just randomly throw parts together is actually an analogy that life didn't just throw organ parts together either. For the non-creationist, that's an argument for evolution; not against it.

.

The point of the OP was that something as simple as a car was designed yet you want us to believe that something trillions and trillions and trillions of times more complex: a functioning cell, was just throw together outback by proteins slamming into each other

Don't those complex organisms evolve one feature at a time? No one is positing that a full grown human was accidentally created by random crashing cells.

Magnificat has shown they know zero about mechanics, cars, or spirituality.

That is nothing but your opinion.

 

[Magnificat]

Its amazing how many believe in evolution. Especially since nothing it claims can be verified by the scientific method. Real scientific throries can be falsified. Evolution cannot. It is not a theory. Its a philosophy that requires faith to believe in.

Quite untrue, evolution can easily be falsified. The theory predicts that we'll find fossils in a particular sequence. If a fossil is ever found that contradicts the theory, the theory must be false. We've found trillions of fossils and every single one supports the ToE.

If someone found a proven falsifier, say a horse with a dinosaur, that person would be an instantly famous celebrity.

Guess what? They have already discovered fossils that are out of sequence. Thousands of them. So much for that theory. Lol!

Link?

Rock layers may be flipped but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Fossils may burrow into older sediments and get buried there but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Both cases are easily recognized by scientists.

The whole idea of a geologic column is simply ridiculous. Here. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.
Geological Column and Inherent Problems - Creation Studies Institute

You read the website of an anti-science group and you think you know more than trained scientists? That offends me.

You site is replete with errors and straw men. Here's just one example:

The Geological Column concept also relies on the presupposition that long periods of time elapsed between each stratum.
​

That is absurd. Certainly some formations take a long time (e.g., chalk cliffs of Dover are the remains of diatoms that settled to the sea floor over an enormous time period) but some are almost instantaneous (e.g., flood deposits and volcanic eruptions). Both these cases are well documented by science.

It is education and knowledge, not ignorance, that offends you.

It is not absurd. Why else do evolutionists use the fossils to date the layer they are found in?

 

[ABikerSailor]

So, the car parts just randomly throw themselves against each other and make new and better cars. Interesting

It's odd how this thread morphed. The idea of the OP was to attempt an analogy to show irreducible complexity is an argument against evolution (and cars).

To continue the analogy by saying cars don't just randomly throw parts together is actually an analogy that life didn't just throw organ parts together either. For the non-creationist, that's an argument for evolution; not against it.

.

The point of the OP was that something as simple as a car was designed yet you want us to believe that something trillions and trillions and trillions of times more complex: a functioning cell, was just throw together outback by proteins slamming into each other

Don't those complex organisms evolve one feature at a time? No one is positing that a full grown human was accidentally created by random crashing cells.

Magnificat has shown they know zero about mechanics, cars, or spirituality.

That is nothing but your opinion.

Yeah, it is my opinion. One that I formed from reading this thread and the kind of crap you try to defend.

But, you may know more about religion than I may have originally figured. Why do I say that? Because you and religion both like to move the goalposts and change the rules of the game when you are shown that your analogy isn't the greatest. Religion defends their dogma and view of God against all other positions of view, and when proven wrong, they simply change the narrative like you have done.

 

[WinterBorn]

Quite untrue, evolution can easily be falsified. The theory predicts that we'll find fossils in a particular sequence. If a fossil is ever found that contradicts the theory, the theory must be false. We've found trillions of fossils and every single one supports the ToE.

If someone found a proven falsifier, say a horse with a dinosaur, that person would be an instantly famous celebrity.

Guess what? They have already discovered fossils that are out of sequence. Thousands of them. So much for that theory. Lol!

Link?

Rock layers may be flipped but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Fossils may burrow into older sediments and get buried there but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Both cases are easily recognized by scientists.

The whole idea of a geologic column is simply ridiculous. Here. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.
Geological Column and Inherent Problems - Creation Studies Institute

You read the website of an anti-science group and you think you know more than trained scientists? That offends me.

You site is replete with errors and straw men. Here's just one example:

The Geological Column concept also relies on the presupposition that long periods of time elapsed between each stratum.
​

That is absurd. Certainly some formations take a long time (e.g., chalk cliffs of Dover are the remains of diatoms that settled to the sea floor over an enormous time period) but some are almost instantaneous (e.g., flood deposits and volcanic eruptions). Both these cases are well documented by science.

It is education and knowledge, not ignorance, that offends you.

It is not absurd. Why else do evolutionists use the fossils to date the layer they are found in?

Simple answer? They don't. They also use parts of the layer itself to date the fossils.

Still waiting for you to post a link to support your claim that they have found fossils out of sequence.

 

[Magnificat]

Its amazing how many believe in evolution. Especially since nothing it claims can be verified by the scientific method. Real scientific throries can be falsified. Evolution cannot. It is not a theory. Its a philosophy that requires faith to believe in.

Quite untrue, evolution can easily be falsified. The theory predicts that we'll find fossils in a particular sequence. If a fossil is ever found that contradicts the theory, the theory must be false. We've found trillions of fossils and every single one supports the ToE.

If someone found a proven falsifier, say a horse with a dinosaur, that person would be an instantly famous celebrity.

Guess what? They have already discovered fossils that are out of sequence. Thousands of them. So much for that theory. Lol!

Link?

Rock layers may be flipped but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Fossils may burrow into older sediments and get buried there but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Both cases are easily recognized by scientists.

The whole idea of a geologic column is simply ridiculous. Here. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.
Geological Column and Inherent Problems - Creation Studies Institute

You read the website of an anti-science group and you think you know more than trained scientists? That offends me.

You site is replete with errors and straw men. Here's just one example:

The Geological Column concept also relies on the presupposition that long periods of time elapsed between each stratum.
​

That is absurd. Certainly some formations take a long time (e.g., chalk cliffs of Dover are the remains of diatoms that settled to the sea floor over an enormous time period) but some are almost instantaneous (e.g., flood deposits and volcanic eruptions). Both these cases are well documented by science.

It is education and knowledge, not ignorance, that offends you.

CSI has many scientists on staff. So how can you say they are anti science? Evolution is not science. Its a philosophy.

 

[WinterBorn]

So, the car parts just randomly throw themselves against each other and make new and better cars. Interesting

It's odd how this thread morphed. The idea of the OP was to attempt an analogy to show irreducible complexity is an argument against evolution (and cars).

To continue the analogy by saying cars don't just randomly throw parts together is actually an analogy that life didn't just throw organ parts together either. For the non-creationist, that's an argument for evolution; not against it.

.

The point of the OP was that something as simple as a car was designed yet you want us to believe that something trillions and trillions and trillions of times more complex: a functioning cell, was just throw together outback by proteins slamming into each other

Don't those complex organisms evolve one feature at a time? No one is positing that a full grown human was accidentally created by random crashing cells.

Magnificat has shown they know zero about mechanics, cars, or spirituality.

That is nothing but your opinion.

And apparently, it is just your opinion that they have found fossils out of sequence. At least his opinion has a basis in facts presented in this thread.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Guess what? They have already discovered fossils that are out of sequence. Thousands of them. So much for that theory. Lol!

Link?

Rock layers may be flipped but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Fossils may burrow into older sediments and get buried there but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Both cases are easily recognized by scientists.

The whole idea of a geologic column is simply ridiculous. Here. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.
Geological Column and Inherent Problems - Creation Studies Institute

You read the website of an anti-science group and you think you know more than trained scientists? That offends me.

You site is replete with errors and straw men. Here's just one example:

The Geological Column concept also relies on the presupposition that long periods of time elapsed between each stratum.
​

That is absurd. Certainly some formations take a long time (e.g., chalk cliffs of Dover are the remains of diatoms that settled to the sea floor over an enormous time period) but some are almost instantaneous (e.g., flood deposits and volcanic eruptions). Both these cases are well documented by science.

It is education and knowledge, not ignorance, that offends you.

It is not absurd. Why else do evolutionists use the fossils to date the layer they are found in?

Simple answer? They don't. They also use parts of the layer itself to date the fossils.

Still waiting for you to post a link to support your claim that they have found fossils out of sequence.

I just did a Google search for "fossils out of sequence", and found some websites that said that, but interestingly enough, they were all in support of creation theories.

 

[WinterBorn]

Quite untrue, evolution can easily be falsified. The theory predicts that we'll find fossils in a particular sequence. If a fossil is ever found that contradicts the theory, the theory must be false. We've found trillions of fossils and every single one supports the ToE.

If someone found a proven falsifier, say a horse with a dinosaur, that person would be an instantly famous celebrity.

Guess what? They have already discovered fossils that are out of sequence. Thousands of them. So much for that theory. Lol!

Link?

Rock layers may be flipped but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Fossils may burrow into older sediments and get buried there but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Both cases are easily recognized by scientists.

The whole idea of a geologic column is simply ridiculous. Here. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.
Geological Column and Inherent Problems - Creation Studies Institute

You read the website of an anti-science group and you think you know more than trained scientists? That offends me.

You site is replete with errors and straw men. Here's just one example:

The Geological Column concept also relies on the presupposition that long periods of time elapsed between each stratum.
​

That is absurd. Certainly some formations take a long time (e.g., chalk cliffs of Dover are the remains of diatoms that settled to the sea floor over an enormous time period) but some are almost instantaneous (e.g., flood deposits and volcanic eruptions). Both these cases are well documented by science.

It is education and knowledge, not ignorance, that offends you.

CSI has many scientists on staff. So how can you say they are anti science? Evolution is not science. Its a philosophy.

The "scientists" there are working to prove the assumptions they already have.


Once again, post a link showing fossils have been found out of sequence.

 

[alang1216]

It is not absurd. Why else do evolutionists use the fossils to date the layer they are found in?

If a geologist already knows the age range of a fossil and he finds that fossil in a rock layer, it is likely that that rock layer was formed within the age range of the fossil. Likewise, if you know the age of a rock layer, it is likely that the fossils in it are of that same age.

 

[Magnificat]

So, the car parts just randomly throw themselves against each other and make new and better cars. Interesting

It's odd how this thread morphed. The idea of the OP was to attempt an analogy to show irreducible complexity is an argument against evolution (and cars).

To continue the analogy by saying cars don't just randomly throw parts together is actually an analogy that life didn't just throw organ parts together either. For the non-creationist, that's an argument for evolution; not against it.

.

The point of the OP was that something as simple as a car was designed yet you want us to believe that something trillions and trillions and trillions of times more complex: a functioning cell, was just throw together outback by proteins slamming into each other

Don't those complex organisms evolve one feature at a time? No one is positing that a full grown human was accidentally created by random crashing cells.

Magnificat has shown they know zero about mechanics, cars, or spirituality.

That is nothing but your opinion.

Yeah, it is my opinion. One that I formed from reading this thread and the kind of crap you try to defend.

But, you may know more about religion than I may have originally figured. Why do I say that? Because you and religion both like to move the goalposts and change the rules of the game when you are shown that your analogy isn't the greatest. Religion defends their dogma and view of God against all other positions of view, and when proven wrong, they simply change the narrative like you have done.

Once again, that is nothing but your opinion. My goal was to prove that something can be irreducibly complex. And I have done so.

 

[WinterBorn]

Link?

Rock layers may be flipped but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Fossils may burrow into older sediments and get buried there but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Both cases are easily recognized by scientists.

The whole idea of a geologic column is simply ridiculous. Here. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.
Geological Column and Inherent Problems - Creation Studies Institute

You read the website of an anti-science group and you think you know more than trained scientists? That offends me.

You site is replete with errors and straw men. Here's just one example:

The Geological Column concept also relies on the presupposition that long periods of time elapsed between each stratum.
​

That is absurd. Certainly some formations take a long time (e.g., chalk cliffs of Dover are the remains of diatoms that settled to the sea floor over an enormous time period) but some are almost instantaneous (e.g., flood deposits and volcanic eruptions). Both these cases are well documented by science.

It is education and knowledge, not ignorance, that offends you.

It is not absurd. Why else do evolutionists use the fossils to date the layer they are found in?

Simple answer? They don't. They also use parts of the layer itself to date the fossils.

Still waiting for you to post a link to support your claim that they have found fossils out of sequence.

I just did a Google search for "fossils out of sequence", and found some websites that said that, but interestingly enough, they were all in support of creation theories.

Imagine that.

 

[WinterBorn]

It's odd how this thread morphed. The idea of the OP was to attempt an analogy to show irreducible complexity is an argument against evolution (and cars).

To continue the analogy by saying cars don't just randomly throw parts together is actually an analogy that life didn't just throw organ parts together either. For the non-creationist, that's an argument for evolution; not against it.

.

The point of the OP was that something as simple as a car was designed yet you want us to believe that something trillions and trillions and trillions of times more complex: a functioning cell, was just throw together outback by proteins slamming into each other

Don't those complex organisms evolve one feature at a time? No one is positing that a full grown human was accidentally created by random crashing cells.

Magnificat has shown they know zero about mechanics, cars, or spirituality.

That is nothing but your opinion.

Yeah, it is my opinion. One that I formed from reading this thread and the kind of crap you try to defend.

But, you may know more about religion than I may have originally figured. Why do I say that? Because you and religion both like to move the goalposts and change the rules of the game when you are shown that your analogy isn't the greatest. Religion defends their dogma and view of God against all other positions of view, and when proven wrong, they simply change the narrative like you have done.

Once again, that is nothing but your opinion. My goal was to prove that something van be irreducibly complex. And I have done so.

No, you have not. Most of the examples you used were debunked. And comparing a machine to living cells is utterly ridiculous.

 

[ABikerSailor]

Guess what? They have already discovered fossils that are out of sequence. Thousands of them. So much for that theory. Lol!

Link?

Rock layers may be flipped but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Fossils may burrow into older sediments and get buried there but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Both cases are easily recognized by scientists.

The whole idea of a geologic column is simply ridiculous. Here. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.
Geological Column and Inherent Problems - Creation Studies Institute

You read the website of an anti-science group and you think you know more than trained scientists? That offends me.

You site is replete with errors and straw men. Here's just one example:

The Geological Column concept also relies on the presupposition that long periods of time elapsed between each stratum.
​

That is absurd. Certainly some formations take a long time (e.g., chalk cliffs of Dover are the remains of diatoms that settled to the sea floor over an enormous time period) but some are almost instantaneous (e.g., flood deposits and volcanic eruptions). Both these cases are well documented by science.

It is education and knowledge, not ignorance, that offends you.

CSI has many scientists on staff. So how can you say they are anti science? Evolution is not science. Its a philosophy.

The "scientists" there are working to prove the assumptions they already have.


Once again, post a link showing fossils have been found out of sequence.

Yep, ya gotta wonder about that link Manificat posted, because any site that claims to be scientific, yet is in support of creation science is suspect at best, to me.

 

[forkup]

Quite untrue, evolution can easily be falsified. The theory predicts that we'll find fossils in a particular sequence. If a fossil is ever found that contradicts the theory, the theory must be false. We've found trillions of fossils and every single one supports the ToE.

If someone found a proven falsifier, say a horse with a dinosaur, that person would be an instantly famous celebrity.

Guess what? They have already discovered fossils that are out of sequence. Thousands of them. So much for that theory. Lol!

Link?

Rock layers may be flipped but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Fossils may burrow into older sediments and get buried there but that does not mean they are out of sequence. Both cases are easily recognized by scientists.

The whole idea of a geologic column is simply ridiculous. Here. Educate yourself. Your ignorance offends me.
Geological Column and Inherent Problems - Creation Studies Institute

You read the website of an anti-science group and you think you know more than trained scientists? That offends me.

You site is replete with errors and straw men. Here's just one example:

The Geological Column concept also relies on the presupposition that long periods of time elapsed between each stratum.
​

That is absurd. Certainly some formations take a long time (e.g., chalk cliffs of Dover are the remains of diatoms that settled to the sea floor over an enormous time period) but some are almost instantaneous (e.g., flood deposits and volcanic eruptions). Both these cases are well documented by science.

It is education and knowledge, not ignorance, that offends you.

It is not absurd. Why else do evolutionists use the fossils to date the layer they are found in?

Archeologists use fossils like they use other methods to date layers. In science, more data points are always desirable. They also find that using multiple methods is a way to falsify. It's why you can use science to make certain predictions. For instance, they have used known ages of certain rock layers to find a specific type of fossil in a region they suspected to have them. Intelligent design or other pseudoscience doesn't provide any such predictions.

 

[ABikerSailor]

It's odd how this thread morphed. The idea of the OP was to attempt an analogy to show irreducible complexity is an argument against evolution (and cars).

To continue the analogy by saying cars don't just randomly throw parts together is actually an analogy that life didn't just throw organ parts together either. For the non-creationist, that's an argument for evolution; not against it.

.

The point of the OP was that something as simple as a car was designed yet you want us to believe that something trillions and trillions and trillions of times more complex: a functioning cell, was just throw together outback by proteins slamming into each other

Don't those complex organisms evolve one feature at a time? No one is positing that a full grown human was accidentally created by random crashing cells.

Magnificat has shown they know zero about mechanics, cars, or spirituality.

That is nothing but your opinion.

Yeah, it is my opinion. One that I formed from reading this thread and the kind of crap you try to defend.

But, you may know more about religion than I may have originally figured. Why do I say that? Because you and religion both like to move the goalposts and change the rules of the game when you are shown that your analogy isn't the greatest. Religion defends their dogma and view of God against all other positions of view, and when proven wrong, they simply change the narrative like you have done.

Once again, that is nothing but your opinion. My goal was to prove that something can be irreducibly complex. And I have done so.

No you haven't. One of the reasons is that you said all cars with gas engines require radiators. Volkswagon, Porsche, and Harley Davidson (just to name a few) are gas powered engines that are air cooled, meaning they don't have radiators. One of the "irreducible complexities" that you had stated cars have was a radiator.

You'd be better off coming up with a different example than cars if you want to be able to somehow prove your point.