Ina LANDSLIDE, House repeals Obamacare

In order to effectively cure our ailing healthcare system, it is critical that its specific ailment is accurately diagnosed. In reality, the American health insurance is not sold on a free market, and the places it deviates from a free market are the sources of the problems it sees today. Examples of this deviation abound. One is the third-party-payer system used by 85% of insured Americans. Ones employer providing ones health insurance makes no more sense than providing ones house, car, or any other expensive and individualized purchase. Another hindrance to the free market in healthcare is government intervention. Government actions like Medicare, Medicaid, a ban on out-of-state insurance purchases, HIPPA, SCHIP, COBRA, and supply-restrictive licensure laws are largely responsible for rising health insurance costs. These are the real problems in the health insurance industry, yet those pushing through the healthcare bills give the industry give a false diagnosis; they instead blame the industries ills on corporate greed and “profiteering”. Not only does their legislation ignore the true causes of soaring insurance prices, it exacerbates them. Instead of removing middle-man interference with market dynamics, the plans expand this senseless system by forcing employers to provide insurance for their employees under penalty of fine or tax. And instead of removing government meddling with the industry, the legislation creates over 1900 pages of new mandates, regulations, fees, and bureaucracy. Any prescription written to cure a system ailing from government intervention with more government intervention is surely doomed to failure.


Perhaps the most outrageous aspect of this bill is its blatant encroachments on individual liberties. The bill forces insurance companies to cover those with pre-existing conditions at no extra charge, the equivalent of selling life insurance to a dead man, insuring a car that has already crashed, or insuring a home that has already burned down. Why should any company in any field be forced by the government to do something sure to lose it money? In order to pay for this costly policy, the legislation forces nearly all Americans to buy/obtain health insurance whether they want it or not, a law called the “individual mandate.” Fees or even jail time await those who fail to comply. Obama’s argued in September that those who fail to obtain insurance practice “irresponsible behavior” which “costs all the rest of us money” because “it means we pay for these people’s expensive emergency room visits.” What the president calls “irresponsible behavior” might also be called “choice”, and when he says such emergency room visits are “expensive”, he means is that they account for less than 3% of our healthcare budget. The true motivation behind the individual mandate is making the young and healthy subsidize the old and sick. The bills also dictate that all insurance plans meet the government’s specific qualifications. Consumers may not pay for merely what they want insured, they must instead fill whatever insurance parameters the government deems appropriate. This removes the incentive to check ones healthcare consumption, as it’s already paid for. If people are covered for more products and services than they are now, they will naturally use more products and services than they do now, and this increased usage will force up the costs of care. All of these measures have been tried before in several states, where they have repeatedly increased costs. The present legislation will merely repeat this failure on a grander scale.

Such mandates eradicate any semblance of free market principles the current system has left. The sale of any product is based on the premise that both consumer and producer agree to the transaction. If the producer is forced to sell, and the consumer is forced to buy, the principles of choice and market freedom through which so many industries have flourished cannot exist. Under no circumstances should the government have any power to force any citizen to purchase any product at any time. As Forbes columnist Shikha Dalmia writes, the proposed legislation “will tell patients when, what and how much coverage they must buy; it will tell sellers when, what and how much coverage they must sell.” If that isn’t a government takeover of healthcare, what is? And it’s a costly takeover at that. The most uncertain issue of the healthcare debate has been the budget hit of the proposed changes. Estimates of total cost run anywhere from $800 billion to over $2 trillion. For a nation already $12 trillion debt, with a soaring national deficit, such a price tag is an irresponsible expenditure even if the bills were effective. The bill is partially funded through diverting $475 billion of so-called “inefficiencies” from Medicare; a half trillion dollars of inefficiencies in a prior government healthcare reform hardly argues for further government intervention! Current projections are vastly underestimated; the healthcare plans are tremendously costly endeavors America simply cannot afford.

The legislation aims to a) open access to health insurance to the 45 million uninsured Americans, and b) lower soaring healthcare costs. But it is economically impossible that both of these things take place without rationing. Healthcare products and services do not grow on trees; they are of a set, limited quantity and require much human research and funds to create. Only entrepreneur initiative can increase the set supply of healthcare in the country, not a government bill. In fact, government liscensure laws and the AMA keep this supply low. But by bringing in 31 million more insured Americans elligible to receive these things, the demand for this set supply skyrockets! Simple economics tells us that when there is greater demand for the same set supply of products, the price of those products inevitably increases.

The proposed healthcare legislation fails to reform the health insurance industry by misdiagnosing the causes of the healthcare crisis, finalizing an illogical third party system, further infringing on individual liberties, and unfairly expanding government powers at an unacceptable cost. For these reasons Congress must vote against the proposed healthcare bills and instead pass a reform bill that will more fairly, cheaply, and effectively fix the industry. Ronald Reagan once accurately stated that “the American people, if you put it to them about socialized medicine and gave them a chance to choose, would unhesitatingly vote against it.” Here’s hoping the American congressmen will do the same.

The Case Against Obamacare | Newsflavor

Normally, this ^ lengthy piece would be subject to some editing for length and due to the rule requiring that whole articles not be quoted. But the piece quoted here IS already and excerpted version.

It's pretty good, too.

I'm with you. Fuck the old and the sick. Let the fuckers die. We need to stop feeding them. Put them in front of DEATH PANELS. Better yet, give them to the NRA for "shooting practice".

Man, you are a TRUE and REAL American. Just what this country needs. MORE LIKE YOU!
 
*Yawn*

Fine, fine...repeal Obamacare.

What are you proposing to replace it?

And it needs to be replaced because....?

Because healthcare insurance increased 131% in 10 years and wages went up 38% during the same time period.

Health Care Premiums Rise 5% For Year -- Increase Is 131% For Decade | Consumer Watchdog

Because the people pay the most for healthcare in the world.

Because Medical bills are the Number One reason for bankruptcy in America.

Medical Bills Leading Cause of Bankruptcy, Harvard Study Finds

Or how about the costs of healthcare is even dragging down the Department of Defenses' budget?

DOD Struggles With Health Care Costs, VA Faces Challenges In Providing Care

DOD Struggles With Health Care Costs, VA Faces Challenges In Providing Care - Kaiser Health News

I have stated from Day One, that I don't like certain aspects of Obamacare but at the same time I'm sane enough to know healthcare is bleeding the US and it's people.
 

6. The 111 agencies will be staffed with Maoists appointed by President Obama. Abortion will be covered. So will sex-change operations for teenagers. They do this in England.

Ha ha ha Ahhhh ha ha ha.


Is your laughter a kind of grunting contention that the assertions are all hyperbole or untrue?

Or are you suggesting that the focus of the objection is actually that a teen might get free sex change operations?

Or are you denying the number of agencies created?

Can you be -- just a little bit -- factual and support your contentions, perhaps, with links to something authoritative?

And, while you're at it, maybe you can 'splain the part of Obamacare that TAXES the snot outta all of us for several years BEFORE most of the "substantive" portions of that crappy bit of legislation even takes effect.
 
WASHINGTON -- As many as 129 million Americans under age 65 have medical problems that are red flags for health insurers, according to an analysis that marks the government's first attempt to quantify the number of people at risk of being rejected by insurance companies or paying more for coverage.

'Pre-existing conditions' exist in up to half of Americans under 65 | cleveland.com

As long as we are clear. Repeal Obamacare and put nothing in place to address the problems, and what you have chosen to do is use a for-profit system that will prevent many of your neighbors from receiving care.

That's no longer acceptable to me. If it is acceptable to you, I pity you.



If half the country are at risk due to "pre-existing condition", then why such a low participation rate in the risk pool:


We now know how many people have the problem most often cited as the reason for last years’ health overhaul legislation. Answer: 8,000

No, that’s not a misprint. Out of 310 million Americans, only 8,000 people have the problem given as the principal reason for spending almost $1 trillion, creating more than 150 regulatory agencies and causing perhaps 150 million or more people to change the coverage they now have.

Alert readers will remember the White House summer of 2009 invitation to all Americans to send in their horror stories describing health insurance industry abuses. Although the complaints were many, the vast majority were about pre-existing condition limitations. Then, on the eve of the ObamaCare vote, every member of Congress who appeared on television to defend the legislation was able to cite by name an individual or family in his or her state or Congressional district with a heart wrenching story....

(snip)

Although the most important parts of ObamaCare (the individual mandate, subsidies, employer fines, etc.) do not kick in until 2014, the legislation made interim provision for those with pre-existing conditions problems. A new kind of risk pool is open to anyone who is denied insurance in the private sector and it’s available for the same premiums healthy people pay. Twenty-three states are operating their own risk pools and 27 are relying on a federal plan.

It’s been like giving a party to which no one comes. The Medicare program chief actuary predicted last spring that 375,000 would sign up for the new risk pool insurance in 2010. But by the end of November, only 8,000 had done so. As Amy Goldstein reports in The Washington Post, this includes 75 in Virginia, 80 in New Hampshire, 97 in Maryland and a whopping 700 in North Carolina....


http://healthblog.ncpa.org/health-p...r&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=HA#more-17097
 
Sweet. Now what? :smoke:

Now it goes to the Senate, gets referred to committee, and you never hear of it again. :thup:


We'll hear about it right after inauguration day in January 2013. Until then, the GOP House can starve the beast and the lawsuit challenges can proceed.

Not a bad situation for ObamaCare opponents in the least.
 
Don’t bother trying to count up the number of agencies, boards and commissions created under the new health care law. Estimating the number is “impossible,” a recent Congressional Research Service report says, and a true count “unknowable.”

The reasons for the uncertainty are many, according to CRS’s Curtis W. Copeland, the author of the report “New Entities Created Pursuant to the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act.”

The provisions of the law that create the new entities vary dramatically in specificity.

The law says a lot about some of them and a little about many, and merely mentions a few. Some have been authorized without any instructions on who is to appoint whom, when that might happen and who will pay.

Those agencies created without specific appointment or appropriations procedures will have to wait indefinitely for staff and funding before they can function, according to Copeland’s report.

And others could be just the opposite: One entity might not be enough and could spawn others, resulting in an “indeterminate number of new organizations.”

The CRS report cites as an example a minority health provision that “requires the heads of six separate agencies within Health and Human Services to each establish their own offices of minority health.”

Another section, by contrast, says that the Patient-Centered Research Institute “‘may appoint permanent or ad hoc expert advisory panels as determined appropriate.’ How many such panels will be ‘determined appropriate’ by the institute is currently unclear.”

Implicit in the report is a message not to take too seriously the elaborate charts and seemingly precise numbers peddled by Republican critics that are designed to show the law’s many bureaucratic tentacles.

The Center for Health Transformation, founded by Newt Gingrich, recently estimated that the new law created as many as 159 new offices, agencies and programs. Republican staffers on the Joint Economic Committee determined that there were 47 bureaucratic entities.

“Although some observers have asserted that PPACA will result in a precise number of new boards and commissions,” the CRS document reads, “the exact number of new organizations and advisory bodies that will ultimately be created ... is currently unknowable.”

Even in the few cases in which the PPACA set explicit creation dates for organizations, the consequences of missing these deadlines remain unknown.

The legislation, for instance, mandated HHS to establish an Interagency Task Force to Assess and Improve Access to Health in Alaska by May 7, as well as an Advisory Committee on Breast Cancer in Young Women by May 22.

HHS has yet to appoint members to the breast cancer committee and is currently reviewing nominations, according to HHS spokeswoman Jessica Santillo. The Alaska task force didn’t hold its first meeting until July 16.

Health reform's bureaucratic spawn - Gloria Park and Fred Barbash - POLITICO.com

Is the CRS "wrong" or "biased?"

Or, is it correct?

And what POSSIBLE conceivable Constitutional justification can there BE for this massive expansion of the power and scope of the Federal Government at the cost of our actual liberties, freedoms and rights?

Why shouldn't this abomination of a clusterfuck piece of crap "legislation" be immediately scrapped?
 
Sweet. Now what? :smoke:

Now it goes to the Senate, gets referred to committee, and you never hear of it again. :thup:


We'll hear about it right after inauguration day in January 2013. Until then, the GOP House can starve the beast and the lawsuit challenges can proceed.

Not a bad situation for ObamaCare opponents in the least.

'Obamacare' opponents are waning in numbers, and that will continue as benefits roll out and lies continue to be debunked.

It will never be repealed in this manner. Changed, sure, as it should be. I'm all for making it better, hell, who isn't - But wholesale repeal without concurrent replacement will never happen, and your 'opponent' lawmakers are very aware of this.

Don't seek refuge in delusion.
 
WASHINGTON -- As many as 129 million Americans under age 65 have medical problems that are red flags for health insurers, according to an analysis that marks the government's first attempt to quantify the number of people at risk of being rejected by insurance companies or paying more for coverage.

'Pre-existing conditions' exist in up to half of Americans under 65 | cleveland.com

As long as we are clear. Repeal Obamacare and put nothing in place to address the problems, and what you have chosen to do is use a for-profit system that will prevent many of your neighbors from receiving care.

That's no longer acceptable to me. If it is acceptable to you, I pity you.


Oh this is such complete and utter nonsense.

A hangnail is not a pre-existing condition.

nor are hurt feelings and pity,, but then again. :eusa_eh:
 
well landslide is not quite the metaphor I would use, sorry but at the end of the day, the 245 is 3 above what the reps have in the chamber, so its still along party lines, plus 3 dems.

But the margin was bigger than the passing vote.

It appears that tomorrow and next week the reps will floor bills calling for tort reform and inter-state plan purchase, both of which were missing from Obamacare. I think those ideas both hold merit.
 
well landslide is not quite the metaphor I would use, sorry but at the end of the day, the 245 is 3 above what the reps have in the chamber, so its still along party lines, plus 3 dems.

But the margin was bigger than the passing vote.

It appears that tomorrow and next week the reps will floor bills calling for tort reform and inter-state plan purchase, both of which were missing from Obamacare. I think those ideas both hold merit.

Well, while I'm against both, I'm glad to see they're gonna try their hands at creating something, rather than just destroying.
 
245-189

And Reid is saying he won't even allow it onto the Senate floor?

That's gonna make the People happy, huh?

Regardless of Reid or the Senate, kiss the mandate, and almost all of Obamacare goodbye.

Only in the mind of the poorly educated and other illiterates.
 
Now it goes to the Senate, gets referred to committee, and you never hear of it again. :thup:


We'll hear about it right after inauguration day in January 2013. Until then, the GOP House can starve the beast and the lawsuit challenges can proceed.

Not a bad situation for ObamaCare opponents in the least.

'Obamacare' opponents are waning in numbers, and that will continue as benefits roll out and lies continue to be debunked.

It will never be repealed in this manner. Changed, sure, as it should be. I'm all for making it better, hell, who isn't - But wholesale repeal without concurrent replacement will never happen, and your 'opponent' lawmakers are very aware of this.

Don't seek refuge in delusion.

well I look forward to that, now the death panel diatribe is problematic, I don't have an issue with it, really, BUT, they, the dems do, they have a dilemma;

people don't trust it, now that may be because they don't understand it (and I am not going to argue that here), or they just have a suspicion of gov. when it comes to this kind of thing, who knows, BUT the dems have done an atrocious job of explaining it, they put in, then pulled it before the vote, then tried to back door it, then pulled it again. With all of the media tools at their disposal there's something more here than just simply saying its fox and beck.......or palin.


Now maybe, just maybe Americans don't believe the "big lie", and thats a change let me tell you, the big lie being that this will not cost more than the 900 some odd billion they said it would AND most importantly and something I think the populace understands viscerally- there is NO way in the world you add a huge chunk of new consumers for access and product AND promise lower prices AND better care, it just aint happening and if thats not enough the closer is- the government will manage it for us and deliver according to those stipulations that THEY advertised.
 
When it's all said and done, the implementation of the healthcare bill will continue, with or without the mandate. It will be amended and amened and amended over the next 10 years. However, unless the pay for services concept of medical care is changed to a pay for success, cost will continue to rise. As long as we keep the insurance companies in the game, they will continue to add an average of 15% for their profits and 10% overhead.

Even if Republicans controlled both houses of Congress and the Whitehouse, they would not repeal this law. Why? Because they would be held responsible for the problems in healthcare just as Democrats are today and will be tomorrow.
 
without the mandate I'd like to see the financing aspect spelled out under that new paradigm....hummm, who around here is willing to take a stab at that.....:eusa_think::eusa_whistle:
 
without the mandate I'd like to see the financing aspect spelled out under that new paradigm....hummm, who around here is willing to take a stab at that.....:eusa_think::eusa_whistle:

Somebody will have to. The bill passed today would not be signed by a Republican in the White House. The vote today means the GOP has committed itself to health care reform. This is a very good step.
 
Helping the American people - bad.

No, doing a piss poor job of helping the American people, and in the end making them worse off is bad.

Good news. Now maybe we can pass real Health care reform. Something that actually lowers costs, instead of rewarding Insurance companies and Unions while making things worse.
 
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It appears that tomorrow and next week the reps will floor bills calling for tort reform and inter-state plan purchase, both of which were missing from Obamacare.

The logic is a bit lacking.

1. The GOP seems to have been rejuvenated by a faction within its ranks stressing old GOP standbys about the Tenth amendment, states' rights, even nullification in some instances.
2. The GOP disagrees with existing state laws.
3. The GOP did very well in state-level elections in 2010 and has complete control of the state governments of about 40% of the states with significant policymaking muscle in many others.

Put them together and you get the obvious answer:

4. Use federal law to overturn existing state law.

:eusa_eh:
 

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