Im at a loss for words

[DiveCon]

btw, david, Israel should meet with Hamas i guess

In 2001, we stopped meeting with them and leveled the West Bank and Gaza time after time after time. Finally we said "We'll make peace with you if...." and a faction rose up, put down their weapons and said "if....?" the other factions are still trying to figure out how to anhilate Israel. There IS such a thing as a moderate Arab-Muslim. Abbas, Fayyad, etc. This is our policy by sitting down with the Taliban. We make deals with the moderates and wipe out the extremists.

yeah, quite some different than your rants where you wanted to kill everyone in gaza

 

[DavidS]

Rumsfeld meeting with Saddam was not what you want to make it

No, we just gave him weapons of mass destruction that he used to kill hundreds of thousands of people. Completely innocent meeting.

another LIE

Uh, you're saying that the US never supplied Iraq with wmd's or that Iraq never used any of the wmd's we supplied them? Because both have been well documented. Just ask the Kurds.

 

[DavidS]

btw, david, Israel should meet with Hamas i guess

In 2001, we stopped meeting with them and leveled the West Bank and Gaza time after time after time. Finally we said "We'll make peace with you if...." and a faction rose up, put down their weapons and said "if....?" the other factions are still trying to figure out how to anhilate Israel. There IS such a thing as a moderate Arab-Muslim. Abbas, Fayyad, etc. This is our policy by sitting down with the Taliban. We make deals with the moderates and wipe out the extremists.

yeah, quite some different than your rants where you wanted to kill everyone in gaza

Again, Gazans elected an extremist militant group that does not want peace. They all signed their death certificates when they did that. You're not seeing my point.

In this scenario, the Taliban = the "Palestinians." If we can divide them into two factions, the moderate and the extremes, and work with the moderate and destroy the extremes, like we're doing in Israel, then we can have peace.

 

[auditor0007]

I disagree with you David. You have some points, but the bottom line is that Muslims have been living by the sword since the time Mohammed began preaching his hatred and intolerance.

My problem and bias against Muslims has been well-documented on this forum. But we have to do something because our current strategy isn't working. We either go in, full force and wipe every single one of those bastards off of the face of the Earth, or we make peace with them - let them rule their own kingdoms and give them what they want. Sometimes you have to give the hostage taker a pizza pie so he won't kill any hostages. It sucks, but we cannot afford to do a full-scale war, nor is there any American support of one. So the only way to solve this problem, short-term, is to compromise with them - make peace with the ones who want peace and kill all the rest.

Had we done everything differently in the past, we'd still be where we are today. You talk about these people in the desert with rules and laws that are centuries old. Well, these people want those centuries old laws to be the laws of modern society, even when they become part of modern societies. You fail to see that these people do not want to live peacably amongst us even when they move into our societies.

So, Michigan has a huge problem with Muslims? Does NYC have a problem with them? Answer: No. They can "domesticated." Give them flat screen TV's and SUV's to drive around in and they'll be happy. Also look at Abu Dabi or however the fuck you say it. Capitalism meets Islam.



I don't see much difference between that and the Christians who try to convert the Jews to Christianity. They each believe they're right and they each believe that they are the ones who will rule Heaven one day. You people went around like madmen a few centuries ago killing all those who didn't believe in Christianity and converting the ones that were willing to change. Christianity didn't get 1 billion members to its religion by "spreading the Good News."

Normal Muslims don't kill people to get you to believe in what they believe in. There are 1 billion of them - and we're facing a threat from less than one million. Hell, less than 500,000. So, you're applying traits of 5% of a people to 100% of them. Believe me, pot calling kettle black when it applies to me - I'm not perfect, but I realize that and I'm trying to change. Not all Muslims are bad. Just the ones who want to kill us.



Crusades and inquisitions anyone?



That's what the Jews said about the Christians when you overthrew our Muslim protectors of Israel 1000 years ago. Look how far you've come!



Some, not all. Hamas comes to mind. I support a complete anhiliation of Hamas. I do not support an anihiliation of the West Bank or Abbas. They want peace. So, let's give it to them. Ramallah as their capital.

Tell me, what did the Christians in Lebanon do to make the Muslims want to drive them out? Not a damn thing is the answer.

What did the Muslims do 1000 years ago to make the Christians drive them out?

The Muslims moved in, eventually became the majority, and now wreak havoc on Christian society. They won't be happy until every single Christian is driven out of Lebanon. These people live for war and for their backward screwed up ideology. So, you may be right to blame us for some of the problems, but you're missing the real problem. Thinking you can gain their respect is a mistake that many societies have tried and failed at in the past.

The real problem is that people preach religion but follow violence. If people actually believed in their religions, the world would be at peace. No religion preaches violence - ESPECIALLY Islam. Islam believes you cannot be at peace until your neighbor at peace. The word "peace" is mentioned more times in the Qu'ran than it is at a 1960s Vietnam hippy rally.

Just a couple of points, because I'm tired and need to get to bed. The Crusades would never have taken place had the Muslims not blocked passage of Christians to the Holy Land. Crusades

Secondly, you state there are only 500,000 to 1 million extremist Muslims. Sorry David, there are hundreds of millions of extremists. Then there are hundreds of millions who sit on the fence. They are the followers and will follow those that lead the way, which is the extremists. Last of all, there is a small minority who actually believe we can all live in peace. It's a real small minority.

If you want to understand the real threat, just ask Sunni what he would like most to see happen in the future. He's a moderate Muslim living in the US. I asked him. He wants Americans to convert for our own good. That is how he believes we'll all live in peace. He wants a theocratic state ruled by Sharia law right here in the US. It is his belief that this will make for a more moral society and that's all he cares about. He doesn't care about our freedoms or rights.

Muslims that talk peace only talk peace until they gain the upper hand. Then the game changes. You better wake up and start understanding reality. Muslims have had 1400 years to evolve into a peaceful people. It hasn't happened yet, and it never will. Their only answer for peace is that we all convert and live according to the Koran as they interpret it.

So they can talk peace all they want; it's in a completely different context from our view. It really doesn't matter though. In the end, nothing is going to change. At some point in our future, Islam and the rest of the world will be in all out war. It won't be one country fighting another; it will be neighbor fighting neighbor in countries throughout the world, and it will happen first in Europe. It will eventually come to a choice between us or them. We won't be around to see this. Even our kids may be gone by the time this comes to pass, but within a few generations, it's going to happen.

 

[DiveCon]

No, we just gave him weapons of mass destruction that he used to kill hundreds of thousands of people. Completely innocent meeting.

another LIE

Uh, you're saying that the US never supplied Iraq with wmd's or that Iraq never used any of the wmd's we supplied them? Because both have been well documented. Just ask the Kurds.

no, we never supplied then with WMD
we supplied them with refference strain for which they could make antidotes for them
you are clearly clueless and you bought all the lies

 

[auditor0007]

In 2001, we stopped meeting with them and leveled the West Bank and Gaza time after time after time. Finally we said "We'll make peace with you if...." and a faction rose up, put down their weapons and said "if....?" the other factions are still trying to figure out how to anhilate Israel. There IS such a thing as a moderate Arab-Muslim. Abbas, Fayyad, etc. This is our policy by sitting down with the Taliban. We make deals with the moderates and wipe out the extremists.

yeah, quite some different than your rants where you wanted to kill everyone in gaza

Again, Gazans elected an extremist militant group that does not want peace. They all signed their death certificates when they did that. You're not seeing my point.

In this scenario, the Taliban = the "Palestinians." If we can divide them into two factions, the moderate and the extremes, and work with the moderate and destroy the extremes, like we're doing in Israel, then we can have peace.

Damnit David, Israel has been fighting the extemists from day one. They haven't destroyed them yet, and they're not going to unless they kill every single one of them. The problem you have is the same problem most everyone has. You are so tired of the fighting and killing that you will give anything for peace. This is the exact opposite of the way the Muslims think. They have the fortitude to continue fighting. They celebrate martyrdom and death where normal people despise it. Israel will never have peace; you just don't get it.

 

[DiveCon]

ya know, funny how when we found the reference strains in Iraq all the libs claimed that didnt count as WMD, now DavidS wants to say they were
you guys got to get your talking points organized

 

[cbi0090]

Obama mulling over reaching out to "moderate Taliban" is mis-guided. In the south pacific you can find "moderates", something he has some personal experience with, but the Taliban is not a moderate group. It is a very strict form of Islam. The idea is to divide them from the extremists, which he's defining as those who take up arms and actively fight, but you can't separate the beliefs of the two. They are one in the same.
Western ideals will never coincide with those of the Taliban, who's beliefs and practices are barbaric and primitive. What kind of truce can you have with a culture like that?

 

[Annie]

Is it just me, but everytime I've read that headline yesterday, I just keep thinking 'moderate Taliban' is an oxymoron?

 

[WillowTree]

Is it just me, but everytime I've read that headline yesterday, I just keep thinking 'moderate Taliban' is an oxymoron?

you are not alone,, newp!

 

[raceright]

Thought well lets see if maybe Obama and his supporters might be OK.. Yeah he was handed a mess ahhh we can debate for ever as to how he was handed a mess, the idea is the libs might be able to fix it..So we change almost everything that made this country great to possibly make it greater--(poor choice of words for all you grammer experts but you get the point)

Send us into deeper debt for earmark projects that the left couldn't
even get Clinton to allow. Turn about is fair play.

Have the largest market drop in almost forever..Serves wall st right for being to greedy.

Atempt to take over American founded car Mfg. (Ford still holding out) but Foreign car Mfg. are left to do what they want. Ah if American founded car Mfg. fail another greedy group is punished.(both Ceo's and Union members) **extra point here guess what Unions are more greedy than any Corp..check it out members.

Give more to people with little ability by taking from those with alot of ability. Might be a good thing ,have to see. (should try it in entertainment and sports industry)

I grew up in what Ron Kuby calls White Landia talked to my first african American at Ft Eustis when going through Aviation training.
Intresting experience. Was trying my best to be a good catholic treating all people the same. While serving in Vietnam a very large African American Staff Sargent from Brooklyn told me Hey guy you are very gullable when dealing with the brothers you got to watch for bla bla bla and so on. Well I stept back and realised I was treating Brothers better than fellow white guys and I now new what he ment. In a way I was acting racial...

Have noticed a great deal of renewed self respect among the African Americans and that is great... Many try to talk like Obama and dress like Obama.
Obama Talked about Unity in congress and working together. More devided now than ever. Maybe Nancy and Obama are right we will see.

All the things going on in Washington have changed, for the better maybe

Guess what I don't believe in coincidence and I am not as gullable as the rest of you Whites that fell for his bullshit ( I almost did again) this motherfucker (a greatly used work in the projects) with now wishing to talk to the Taliban is a real piece of Shit I was willing to put up with all his fucking change and possibly ruining this country that myself and many others risked our lifes for but now Thats it I will now talk everywhere I go about this Black piece of shit just like the Brother I meet in Vietnam told me how to talk to scum bag home boy's
Do Not be as gullable as you are and there is no such thing as coincodience He is trying to destroy The USA and freedom haters like George Soros are helping him.

More later

 

[garyd]

David your ignorance of history is truly appaling.

To begin with the Taliban and Al Queada together represented about 10% of the combat strength of the US backed Mujahadeen.

2nd Afghanistan as far back at least as the early days of the British Raj has always been little more than a collection of City States, more analogous to Ancient Greece with more than a little of Post Charlemagne and pre Hundred Years War France thrown in just to really screw things up, than a modern nation state. Naivite is expecting this state of affairs to change over night or in less than a couple of decades.

3rd Mullah Omar is the head of the Taliban. He is also Osama bin Laden's father in law. Until one or the other are dead the chance that more than a handful of the Taliban are going to have a conversation not involving a fair number of AK's and M-16's with us is slim to none. The Taliban are not a real appealing group to begin with at least not to Western sensibilities. They went out of their way even before the US returned to the scene to terrorize women and small children to the point that even the Ayatollahs in Iran were apalled.

 

[editec]

If we are thinking that American firepower is going to change the social dynamics of the people of Afghanistan, we're going to bog outsevles down in still another hopeless cause.

Get out!

 

[Neser Boha]

David your ignorance of history is truly appaling.

To begin with the Taliban and Al Queada together represented about 10% of the combat strength of the US backed Mujahadeen.

2nd Afghanistan as far back at least as the early days of the British Raj has always been little more than a collection of City States, more analogous to Ancient Greece with more than a little of Post Charlemagne and pre Hundred Years War France thrown in just to really screw things up, than a modern nation state. Naivite is expecting this state of affairs to change over night or in less than a couple of decades.

3rd Mullah Omar is the head of the Taliban. He is also Osama bin Laden's father in law. Until one or the other are dead the chance that more than a handful of the Taliban are going to have a conversation not involving a fair number of AK's and M-16's with us is slim to none. The Taliban are not a real appealing group to begin with at least not to Western sensibilities. They went out of their way even before the US returned to the scene to terrorize women and small children to the point that even the Ayatollahs in Iran were apalled.

So what are you suggesting the allies should do? I'm seriously interested in your opinion. You seem like the only one with any knowledge of the subject discussed here.

 

[garyd]

Sir, there is far more to this than merely Afghanistan. If it were not so there would have been no reason to go in in the first place no matter the provocation.

It is an interesting circumstance we find ourselves in. Interesting in the sense of the old Chinese, Yiddish, etc curse "May you live in interesting times" . You are correct in that over the long haul US firepower will not in and of itself resolve the situation. It will however provide the possibility of a resolution that might make the world a little more peaceable for the time being and push a nuclear holocaust a bit further away.

 

[RetiredGySgt]

If we are thinking that American firepower is going to change the social dynamics of the people of Afghanistan, we're going to bog outsevles down in still another hopeless cause.

Get out!

TELL Obama.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

so what harm is there in exploring every avenue out of this war on terror?

Let's see...

Showing weakness, check.

Emboldening Jihadists and every dictator/despot/tyrant, check.

You might have noticed, the words "win the war" never come out of The Obama's or any other Dem's mouth? Even this dolt here, with his "out of this war..." crap.

The way "out of this war" is to annihilate the Jihadists. Not bargain with them, not negotiate with them, not appease them. That's all been tried over and over.

And here we have The Obama, playing cheerleader, saying "we're not winning in Afghanistan" don'tcha just know the IslamoNazis love hearing that cowardice?

 

[editec]

Sir, there is far more to this than merely Afghanistan. If it were not so there would have been no reason to go in in the first place no matter the provocation.

It is an interesting circumstance we find ourselves in. Interesting in the sense of the old Chinese, Yiddish, etc curse "May you live in interesting times" . You are correct in that over the long haul US firepower will not in and of itself resolve the situation. It will however provide the possibility of a resolution that might make the world a little more peaceable for the time being and push a nuclear holocaust a bit further away.

Will it?

How exactly, will it do that?

 

[garyd]

Without US firepower Edit the whole thing degenerates into what it has always been, a confused hodgepodge of ministates in which one nutbar can cause untold suffering somewhere else, miserable for the people living there but by itself of little concern. However next door is Nuclear armed Pakistan, which in certain ways is also on the verge of a complete melt down which would almost certainly collpase shortly after the US left the region and a nuclear 9/11 would become not only possible but eventually probable.

What US firepower does is give the locals a chance to get a handle on things. It is going , as I said to take a while for this to happen and absent US firepower it will never happen.

 

[Toome]

I wondered during the campaign run if Obama was really a moderate in liberal's clothing or a liberal in moderate's clothing.

He's a naive fool. Unfortunately, this foolishness will cost American lives.