If you hate Islam but supported Iraq......

[ConHog]

you did not answer the question.

See scumbag, I will gladly and publicly say that ANY American who committed war crimes against Muslims, or anyone else for that matter, should be tried for war crimes and punished accordingly.

So, I'll ask again. How do you feel about teh Muslim scumbags who killed 3000 innocent Americans?

They're dead. If they were alive, I would support punishing them in accordance with Shari'ah. Hirabah (unlawful warfare) of such an extreme degree is a capital offense and carries crucifixion and/or alternate amputation as a punishment.

So you're opposed to the ones who were behind it from being brought to justice, or you actually claim they are all dead to?

 

[theHawk]

It's Chess. It ain't Checkers. The Iraq & Afghan Governments will now be American allies. Obviously they weren't before the Wars. That's what it's all about in the end. There's a lot of money to be made in Iraq and Afghanistan. We will be one of the first nations to make some of that money. Afghanistan has a lot of untapped resources. In time they could actually become a fairly wealthy nation. It will be some time though. Iraq could do very well in the future as well.

It's all about allies in the end and we just gained two more. The biggest lesson learned in all this is...It's probably better to just be our friends. If you make an enemy of us,it probably wont end too well for your nation. Iran & North Korea should learn this lesson. Making us their enemy is probably a very big mistake on their part. It will not end well for either nation. Personally i don't support Interventionism & Nation-Building but in some cases it has proven advantageous for us. I guess we'll see how it all shakes out in Afghanistan and Iraq. My guess is that they will be our allies but they will be far from perfect Democracies. They will also continue to have radicals in their countries. In the end we don't care though. Just be our friend and everyone will make money and prosper. It really is Chess. It definitely ain't Checkers.

That doesn't make much sense to me. I don't want to make any money off of them. Muslims cannot be delt with in a reasonable manner, their religion simply cannot co-exist with our freedoms and way of life.

Sooner or later it will be us or them. Time to prepare for that day.

Well i hear ya but i disagree a bit. Most Muslims just want to live life like the rest of us. They want to have a decent paying job and educate their children. We've been doing an awful lot of business with Muslim Nations for many years. We still do. The Radicals have gained ground in recent years but they will be defeated in the end. It will take some time but they will be defeated.

Our biggest mistake has been not allowing Muslims themselves in these nations to deal with their radicals the way they see fit. They have dealt with radicals before in these nations and do know how to deal with them. Their methods are harsh and extreme by our Western standards but they work. We have brought our Western sensibilities with us to these nations and have screwed things up. We should just get out of the way and let Muslims in these nations deal with their radicals. We shouldn't pass judgment on their methods. We should just shut up and get out of the way.

Also keep in mind,they don't have to be perfect Democracies to be our friends. We have to get away from the misguided thinking that they have to be just like us to be our friends. We do an awful lot of business with China for example. We just gained a couple of allies in Iraq & Afghanistan. They wont be perfect nations but they will be our friends. We need to start being satisfied with that.

Well of course if Muslims taste true freedom, they will begin to reject that which oppresses them - that is inherent to all humans. The problem is most Islamic nations are theocracies and there is no mechanism for the individuals to reject oppressive Islamic rule over them.

I know they don't have to be perfect Democracies to "be our friends". They are incapable of having a true democracy. In fact I do not suggest at all that they can or should be like us, or that they even should be "our friends". Sure we can keep buying up their oil until their wells go dry, don't have much of a problem with that. But sooner or later they are going to try to spread their way of life and beliefs onto us. We need to be prepared and willing to stop that.

 

[Kalam]

you did not answer the question.

See scumbag, I will gladly and publicly say that ANY American who committed war crimes against Muslims, or anyone else for that matter, should be tried for war crimes and punished accordingly.

So, I'll ask again. How do you feel about teh Muslim scumbags who killed 3000 innocent Americans?

They're dead. If they were alive, I would support punishing them in accordance with Shari'ah. Hirabah (unlawful warfare) of such an extreme degree is a capital offense and carries crucifixion and/or alternate amputation as a punishment.

So you're opposed to the ones who were behind it from being brought to justice, or you actually claim they are all dead to?

You asked about the ones who actually perpetrated the killings. As for the others, orchestrating an operation is still engaging in warfare, is it not?

 

[ConHog]

They're dead. If they were alive, I would support punishing them in accordance with Shari'ah. Hirabah (unlawful warfare) of such an extreme degree is a capital offense and carries crucifixion and/or alternate amputation as a punishment.

So you're opposed to the ones who were behind it from being brought to justice, or you actually claim they are all dead to?

You asked about the ones who actually perpetrated the killings. As for the others, orchestrating an operation is still engaging in warfare, is it not?

See, you keep calling it warfare, trying to justify it, call it what it was. Terrorism.

 

[Kalam]

So you're opposed to the ones who were behind it from being brought to justice, or you actually claim they are all dead to?

You asked about the ones who actually perpetrated the killings. As for the others, orchestrating an operation is still engaging in warfare, is it not?

See, you keep calling it warfare, trying to justify it,

Right. I'm trying to justify it while stating that the perpetrators should have been crucified.

call it what it was. Terrorism.

"Terrorism" has become a buzzword. Since I'm calling for a Shari'i penalty, I'll use the Shari'i term - hirabah.

 

[ConHog]

You asked about the ones who actually perpetrated the killings. As for the others, orchestrating an operation is still engaging in warfare, is it not?

See, you keep calling it warfare, trying to justify it,

Right. I'm trying to justify it while stating that the perpetrators should have been crucified.

call it what it was. Terrorism.

"Terrorism" has become a buzzword. Since I'm calling for a Shari'i penalty, I'll use the Shari'i term - hirabah.

Hirābah (Arabic: حرابة&#8206 is an Arabic word for “piracy,” or “unlawful warfare."

Hirabah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What the hell does that mean? Oh, that you keep trying to call them warriors. Buzzword my ass, they were terrorists, and so are you. SCUM.

 

[Kalam]

See, you keep calling it warfare, trying to justify it,

Right. I'm trying to justify it while stating that the perpetrators should have been crucified.

call it what it was. Terrorism.

"Terrorism" has become a buzzword. Since I'm calling for a Shari'i penalty, I'll use the Shari'i term - hirabah.

Hirābah (Arabic: حرابة&#8206 is an Arabic word for “piracy,” or “unlawful warfare."

Hirabah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What the hell does that mean?

Unlawful | Define Unlawful at Dictionary.com
Warfare | Define Warfare at Dictionary.com

Oh, that you keep trying to call them warriors. Buzzword my ass, they were terrorists, and so are you. SCUM.

 

[ConHog]

Right. I'm trying to justify it while stating that the perpetrators should have been crucified.


"Terrorism" has become a buzzword. Since I'm calling for a Shari'i penalty, I'll use the Shari'i term - hirabah.

Hirābah (Arabic: حرابة&#8206 is an Arabic word for “piracy,” or “unlawful warfare."

Hirabah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What the hell does that mean?

Unlawful | Define Unlawful at Dictionary.com
Warfare | Define Warfare at Dictionary.com

Oh, that you keep trying to call them warriors. Buzzword my ass, they were terrorists, and so are you. SCUM.

They were criminals, not warriors scumbag

 

[Kalam]

Hirābah (Arabic: حرابة&#8206 is an Arabic word for “piracy,” or “unlawful warfare."

Hirabah - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

What the hell does that mean?

Unlawful | Define Unlawful at Dictionary.com
Warfare | Define Warfare at Dictionary.com

Oh, that you keep trying to call them warriors. Buzzword my ass, they were terrorists, and so are you. SCUM.

They were criminals, not warriors scumbag

You're the only one calling them "warriors", CornDog. You're arguing with yourself.

 

[ConHog]

Unlawful | Define Unlawful at Dictionary.com
Warfare | Define Warfare at Dictionary.com

They were criminals, not warriors scumbag

You're the only one calling them "warriors", CornDog. You're arguing with yourself.

nice try but you declared them to be unlawful warriors, still warriors and nice joke about hijacking a 747 in the other thread, you terrorist scum.

 

[Kalam]

They were criminals, not warriors scumbag

You're the only one calling them "warriors", CornDog. You're arguing with yourself.

nice try but you declared them to be unlawful warriors, still warriors

You're such a little bitch, dude. I already made it clear that they should be given what is probably the harshest penalty in Shari'ah law, so feel free to suck a fuck if that isn't good enough for your whiney ass.

and nice joke about hijacking a 747 in the other thread, you terrorist scum.

TBH, I wanted to see you throw another temper tantrum.

 

[del]

It's Chess. It ain't Checkers. The Iraq & Afghan Governments will now be American allies. Obviously they weren't before the Wars. That's what it's all about in the end. There's a lot of money to be made in Iraq and Afghanistan. We will be one of the first nations to make some of that money. Afghanistan has a lot of untapped resources. In time they could actually become a fairly wealthy nation. It will be some time though. Iraq could do very well in the future as well.

It's all about allies in the end and we just gained two more. The biggest lesson learned in all this is...It's probably better to just be our friends. If you make an enemy of us,it probably wont end too well for your nation. Iran & North Korea should learn this lesson. Making us their enemy is probably a very big mistake on their part. It will not end well for either nation. Personally i don't support Interventionism & Nation-Building but in some cases it has proven advantageous for us. I guess we'll see how it all shakes out in Afghanistan and Iraq though. My guess is that they will be our allies but they will be far from perfect Democracies. They will also continue to have radicals in their countries. In the end we don't care though. Just be our friend and everyone will make money and prosper. It really is Chess. It definitely ain't Checkers.

do you believe in the tooth fairy, too?

 

[geauxtohell]

The war in Iraq was not intended to empower anyone, it was intended to take one tyrant, Saddam Hussein, out of power. The only way your question makes any sense is if we assume that rdean is correct that we meant to set up an Islamic theocracy. It isn't my fault you phased your question to support this if it was not your intent.

Actually, it was intended to take out WMDs.

After that went bust, it became about spreading democracy and our tactics for the overwhelming time we were there relied on creating a moderate Islamic state.

Now that we have cleared that up, do you care to comment on the question at hand, or are you going to continue to try and muck up my thread?

I understand it's a tough question for some people.

Really? I must have missed the memo that changed that.

You mucked up your thread when you insisted that the goals of the war were to set up an Islamic theocracy. Since that was never a goal I get to mock you for you trying to rewrite history.

I never said the goal was to set up an Islamic theocracy. You've been so off the mark on reading comprehension on this thread that I almost suspect it's deliberate.

As for the rest, unless you can point to anywhere I said anything about there being no moderate Muslims, or where I said setting up those non existent moderate Mulims in power would help me in any way shape or form, I still get to mock you for trying to read my mind and failing. That also leaves me free to mock you, and muck up your thread.

For fuck's sake. I never said you had an opinion on Muslims one way or the other. My question was relatively straightforward and to a certain segment of posters on the board. If it doesn't apply to you, then obviously it's not directed at you.

Additionally, my guess is you will find that the set of people who think there are no moderate Muslims and the set of people who think setting up a Muslim government in Iraq do not overlap. That again leaves me free to mock you and muck up your thread because it is not based on reality. It is not my fault you totally fail at understanding that people are different simple because they disagree with your politics. This shows that you, personally, are weak minded and shallow, and is not a reflection on those who disagree with you.

I get to muck up your thread because you did not ask a question, you attempted to posit a paradox, and the universe does not permit paradoxes.

It's my guess that you are wrong. Thanks for being honest enough to admit that my question is so off putting to you that your only goal is to derail the thread though.

 

[geauxtohell]

i guess if you HATE islam, it would be a tough question.

If you hate Islam or think Islam is inherently evil and not capable of ever being good.

It's one of those "if the shoe fits" things.

Actually, you just do not understand that it is possible to dislike a religion and still acknowledge that everyone who follows that religion is not identical. This is another indication of your lack of intellectual capacity, and not really your fault.

No, I absolutely understand that. That's why I specifically couched my question to people who believe that Islam "can not be refined".

Stop being a moron. I know you are being deliberately obtuse.

And that is your fault.

 

[geauxtohell]

excellent non answer.

He posited a condition that is impossible for the universe to sustain, was I supposed to assume that he was being serious and treat his idiocy with respect?

i assume you have some type of reading disabilityy that doesn't allow you to process information in the written form or you're completely intellectually dishonest. he posited no such condition, despite your insistence to the contrary. even after he told you directly that he was not referring to an islamic theocracy, you continue to insist he did.

Uh no.

Did you bother to read the OP?

I am speaking directly to the people who think that there is no such thing as a "moderate Muslim".

and yet you come back with this smarmy little tidbit.

Really? I must have missed the memo that changed that.

You mucked up your thread when you insisted that the goals of the war were to set up an Islamic theocracy. Since that was never a goal I get to mock you for you trying to rewrite history.

As for the rest, unless you can point to anywhere I said anything about there being no moderate Muslims, or where I said setting up those non existent moderate Mulims in power would help me in any way shape or form, I still get to mock you for trying to read my mind and failing. That also leaves me free to mock you, and muck up your thread.

Additionally, my guess is you will find that the set of people who think there are no moderate Muslims and the set of people who think setting up a Muslim government in Iraq do not overlap. That again leaves me free to mock you and muck up your thread because it is not based on reality. It is not my fault you totally fail at understanding that people are different simple because they disagree with your politics. This shows that you, personally, are weak minded and shallow, and is not a reflection on those who disagree with you.

I get to muck up your thread because you did not ask a question, you attempted to posit a paradox, and the universe does not permit paradoxes.

i'll give you credit for being able to kick the living shit out of your strawman, but for you to cast aspersions on anyone's intellectual capacity, including rdean and truthmatters, is laughable.

you are certainly a windbag, though.

too bad you're too much of a pussy to actually answer the question as asked.

have a most pleasant evening.

At first I thought he was just confused. Now I know he is just being dishonest.

As I said, the need to deflect from the question is telling.

 

[geauxtohell]

How do you reconcile the fact that you supported a war that relied largely on the notion that we could empower a moderate faction of a religion that you think is incapable of having a moderate faction?

Just curious. It's a question I have often asked warhawk Islamophobes and have never really gotten a good answer.

More succinctly: If you think Islam embraces an inherently evil doctrine that can not be refined, how could you support nation building in an Islamic country?

I fully supported overthrowing Saddam Hussein and his regime. Never cared for the whole nation building aspect. I've always said Bush was too liberal in his belief that Islam is a "religion of peace" and that Iraq could be built into some kind of peaceful society.

You are absolutely right, Islam is a religion that is inherently evil, and cannot and does not coexist with Western ideals of freedom and democracy.

What we should of done was carpet bomb the country pillar to post and we would have had far fewer casualities on our side. Of course the liberals would of screamed about it, but as it turns out they did anyway when we did it Bush's politically correct way.

First, thanks for being honest enough to answer the question. That's a first.

Second, I don't think Islam is inherently evil. I recognize there are people like you that do.

Did you protest the war when it turned into a nation building operation?

 

[LibocalypseNow]

It's Chess. It ain't Checkers. The Iraq & Afghan Governments will now be American allies. Obviously they weren't before the Wars. That's what it's all about in the end. There's a lot of money to be made in Iraq and Afghanistan. We will be one of the first nations to make some of that money. Afghanistan has a lot of untapped resources. In time they could actually become a fairly wealthy nation. It will be some time though. Iraq could do very well in the future as well.

It's all about allies in the end and we just gained two more. The biggest lesson learned in all this is...It's probably better to just be our friends. If you make an enemy of us,it probably wont end too well for your nation. Iran & North Korea should learn this lesson. Making us their enemy is probably a very big mistake on their part. It will not end well for either nation. Personally i don't support Interventionism & Nation-Building but in some cases it has proven advantageous for us. I guess we'll see how it all shakes out in Afghanistan and Iraq though. My guess is that they will be our allies but they will be far from perfect Democracies. They will also continue to have radicals in their countries. In the end we don't care though. Just be our friend and everyone will make money and prosper. It really is Chess. It definitely ain't Checkers.

do you believe in the tooth fairy, too?

Sorry don't follow ya. What in my post specifically do you disagree with? Iraq & Afghanistan are now U.S.-Friendly allies. Obviously they weren't before the Wars. That's what it's all about in the end. They will never be perfect Democracies and will always have radicals. We don't care much about that though. As long as their friendly and aren't calling for the deaths of Americans,their nations will likely prosper at some point. We gained two more allies and that's what's most important. The lesson learned here really is that it is far better to just be our friends than our enemies. It's too bad Iran & North Korea refuse to learn this lesson. That could be very hazardous to their health in the end.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If you hate Islam or think Islam is inherently evil and not capable of ever being good.

It's one of those "if the shoe fits" things.

Actually, you just do not understand that it is possible to dislike a religion and still acknowledge that everyone who follows that religion is not identical. This is another indication of your lack of intellectual capacity, and not really your fault.

No, I absolutely understand that. That's why I specifically couched my question to people who believe that Islam "can not be refined".

Stop being a moron. I know you are being deliberately obtuse.

And that is your fault.

So, you understand that people are not at all like you are trying to portray them, yet you are still trying to talk to people who do not exist. They have a word for that, schizophrenia.

 

[Sheldon]

Actually, you just do not understand that it is possible to dislike a religion and still acknowledge that everyone who follows that religion is not identical. This is another indication of your lack of intellectual capacity, and not really your fault.

No, I absolutely understand that. That's why I specifically couched my question to people who believe that Islam "can not be refined".

Stop being a moron. I know you are being deliberately obtuse.

And that is your fault.

So, you understand that people are not at all like you are trying to portray them, yet you are still trying to talk to people who do not exist. They have a word for that, schizophrenia.

huh? Here's the OP in checklist format:

___ Do you think Islam is fundamentally incapable of being moderate (re: non-violet towards the West)?

___ Do you support the Iraqi War strategy that relied, in part, on the idea of moderate/non-violent Muslims gaining strength in the area?

If you checked yes to both of those questions, please explain how you reconcile the two positions.
If you checked only one or neither of the questions, then this doesn't apply to you.

Simple.


What you called a paradox the universe doesn't allow, or something like that, is what I call politically-expedient hypocrisy. I think the people who would check both of those options are actually very real people, and not the product of a mental disease.

 

[geauxtohell]

Actually, you just do not understand that it is possible to dislike a religion and still acknowledge that everyone who follows that religion is not identical. This is another indication of your lack of intellectual capacity, and not really your fault.

No, I absolutely understand that. That's why I specifically couched my question to people who believe that Islam "can not be refined".

Stop being a moron. I know you are being deliberately obtuse.

And that is your fault.

So, you understand that people are not at all like you are trying to portray them, yet you are still trying to talk to people who do not exist. They have a word for that, schizophrenia.

"Schizophrenia". LMFAO.

Look, it's patently obvious what you are trying to do here and you've been called on it by multiple posters. So why not just stop being such a fucking jackass?