If God loves us unconditionally, why does he kill us instead of curing us?

[ding]

I wasn’t asking you if you believe religion exists. When I asked you why you didn’t believe God existed you argued why you didn’t accept a specific religion.

You still haven’t told me why you don’t believe God exists. You say it is for the same reason you don’t believe unicorns exist. I can only assume that means you have never seen one. I’m sure there are many things you have never seen before but do believe they do exist, right?

So why don’t you believe God exists?

I wasn't indoctrinated into any other religions as a child, and therefore never had any reason to believe other gods might exist. I did, however believe the "Christian" god existed. I now see no reason to believe that particular god exists either. I'm not opposed to the possibility of a god. If you have some rational reason to believe in one, please present that reason. The validation I once took for granted didn't hold up to scrutiny.

That really doesn't answer the question because it still sounds like you are rejecting the Christian religion.

Why don't you believe God exists? Why don't you believe that God created existence?

I don't think I can make it much simpler. I see no reason to believe a god exists because I see no reason to believe a god exists. I am completely open to the possibility, and if you have some rational reason, I would appreciate the opportunity to consider it, but so far, none has been presented, and my efforts to find such reason is not fruitful. You might note that I never said there is no god. I'll concede that as freely as I concede that unicorns might exist. Show me either one, and I'll be a believer.

Do you see a reason why God doesn’t exist? Because you believe that, right? You don’t have a reason to believe one way or another yet you have chosen to believe one way, right?

I have a rational reason why God created space and time. Is that good enough?

I have repeatedly said I believe it's possible that a god might exist just like unicorns might exist. Virtually anything is possible. I don't have any reason to believe that is the case, and I have no reason to modify my behavior because of the possibility that either one is real.

And my point is that it isn’t just as likely as unicorns existing. For you to consider the possibility of the existence of a creator to be like unicorns is illogical. I can make a case for the existence of a creator. A rather compelling argument no less. I can’t make an argument for a unicorn.

No one is asking you to modify your behaviors. You have free will just like everyone else. We are all subject to the consequences of our actions. At any point in our lives we are the sum of our choices. So whether one believes in God or not that will still be the case. But the practical benefits of faith far outweigh the benefits of no faith. Such that having no faith is irrational.

And no, not everything is virtually possible. Only the things which are potential under the physical, biological and moral laws of nature are possible. Furthermore, the potential existed before space and time existed because the laws of nature existed before space and time.

The reality is that you don’t have any reason to believe God doesn’t exist, but you do.

 

[Wyatt earp]

If God loves us unconditionally, why does he kill us instead of curing us?

Jesus, Yahweh to some, said he came to serve us and not to have us serve him. That is what I describe as unconditional love.

Yahweh, on the other hand, seems to put a condition of us serving him on his love. If we do not love Yahweh, off to hell we go.

I call that a condition to his love, which is negated when he tortures us in hell, then kills us in hell’s second death.

This appears to be a huge contradiction in the Christian ideology.

Is Yahweh’s love unconditional to you, or is our having to love him back and serve him a condition?

Am I bound for hell because I cannot love or serve a genocidal demiurge like Jesus or Yahweh?

Is Jesus showing unconditional love for us when he kills us instead of curing us?



Regards
DL

sin kills us

 

[Wyatt earp]

I wasn’t asking you if you believe religion exists. When I asked you why you didn’t believe God existed you argued why you didn’t accept a specific religion.

You still haven’t told me why you don’t believe God exists. You say it is for the same reason you don’t believe unicorns exist. I can only assume that means you have never seen one. I’m sure there are many things you have never seen before but do believe they do exist, right?

So why don’t you believe God exists?

If you are a Christian, Christianity requires belief in only one god. Why don't you believe others exist?

I believe that before the material world existed that consciousness existed. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So you tell me, why would I believe there are multiple Gods when my perception of God is that God is consciousness without form? Because my answer is it doesn't make sense to me because I don't perceive God as you do.

So when you speak of multiple Gods it seems to me that you are again reverting back to multiple religions. Multiple religions just means there are multiple perceptions of God. Not multiple Gods.

Interesting. I have heard that theory, or theories much like it from lots of places. I'm not denigrating your belief, or your right to your belief/beliefs in any way. That is and always will be your choice. My only concern is when people with deeply held beliefs try to legislate or otherwise direct or limit my rights based on their particular religious beliefs. Live your life as you will. Of course, we are all required to abide by certain universal tenants. Theft, murder, lying, and a host of other actions are universally considered to be forbidden whether you believe in the existence of a god or not. "Because God said so" is not, and should not be a valid remark in any broad ranging discussion concerning the behavior of the population as a whole.

I can’t say I understand why you believe people are trying to force their religion upon you. It seems you are over reacting.

But I hear that complaint a lot. I just don’t agree that it is happening.

I don’t believe I have ever said because God said so. For instance I’m not against abortion because God said so. I am against abortion because it is wrong to end a human life, especially for selfish reasons. My argument against abortion is based on science and is a legal argument. Do you believe I am forcing my relyupon you because I oppose abortion? Or am I participating in the secular process the same as you?

Your opposition to abortion is based on the agreement made with TV preachers to support anti-abortion in exchange for their support of the GOP. Abortion was accepted and mostly uncontroversial before the unholy alliance between Jerry Falwell and the GOP.

liar..........................................




its in the fucking bible...........................

 

[ding]

I wasn’t asking you if you believe religion exists. When I asked you why you didn’t believe God existed you argued why you didn’t accept a specific religion.

You still haven’t told me why you don’t believe God exists. You say it is for the same reason you don’t believe unicorns exist. I can only assume that means you have never seen one. I’m sure there are many things you have never seen before but do believe they do exist, right?

So why don’t you believe God exists?

I wasn't indoctrinated into any other religions as a child, and therefore never had any reason to believe other gods might exist. I did, however believe the "Christian" god existed. I now see no reason to believe that particular god exists either. I'm not opposed to the possibility of a god. If you have some rational reason to believe in one, please present that reason. The validation I once took for granted didn't hold up to scrutiny.

That really doesn't answer the question because it still sounds like you are rejecting the Christian religion.

Why don't you believe God exists? Why don't you believe that God created existence?

I don't think I can make it much simpler. I see no reason to believe a god exists because I see no reason to believe a god exists. I am completely open to the possibility, and if you have some rational reason, I would appreciate the opportunity to consider it, but so far, none has been presented, and my efforts to find such reason is not fruitful. You might note that I never said there is no god. I'll concede that as freely as I concede that unicorns might exist. Show me either one, and I'll be a believer.

So just to be clear, do you believe that it is just as likely that unicorns exist as there is a creator who created space and time?

Because I’m pretty sure I can make an argument for a creator while you cannot make an argument for unicorns.

So do you really believe it is just as likely?

If you want to present a case for a god/creator, then please do. I will be happy to give it serious consideration. I suspect I have already looked at most of what you might say, because I didn't arrive at my belief lightly, but give it a shot. I welcome the opportunity to have my mind changed by credible evidence.

I have. Many times. I’m sure you have read it.

Based on your own words you do arrive at your beliefs lightly because you have no reason not to believe in a creator.

If I had no reason to believe as I do then I would have arrived at my beliefs lightly too. So don’t take what I said personally.

 

[ding]

I wasn’t asking you if you believe religion exists. When I asked you why you didn’t believe God existed you argued why you didn’t accept a specific religion.

You still haven’t told me why you don’t believe God exists. You say it is for the same reason you don’t believe unicorns exist. I can only assume that means you have never seen one. I’m sure there are many things you have never seen before but do believe they do exist, right?

So why don’t you believe God exists?

If you are a Christian, Christianity requires belief in only one god. Why don't you believe others exist?

I believe that before the material world existed that consciousness existed. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So you tell me, why would I believe there are multiple Gods when my perception of God is that God is consciousness without form? Because my answer is it doesn't make sense to me because I don't perceive God as you do.

So when you speak of multiple Gods it seems to me that you are again reverting back to multiple religions. Multiple religions just means there are multiple perceptions of God. Not multiple Gods.

Interesting. I have heard that theory, or theories much like it from lots of places. I'm not denigrating your belief, or your right to your belief/beliefs in any way. That is and always will be your choice. My only concern is when people with deeply held beliefs try to legislate or otherwise direct or limit my rights based on their particular religious beliefs. Live your life as you will. Of course, we are all required to abide by certain universal tenants. Theft, murder, lying, and a host of other actions are universally considered to be forbidden whether you believe in the existence of a god or not. "Because God said so" is not, and should not be a valid remark in any broad ranging discussion concerning the behavior of the population as a whole.

I can’t say I understand why you believe people are trying to force their religion upon you. It seems you are over reacting.

But I hear that complaint a lot. I just don’t agree that it is happening.

I don’t believe I have ever said because God said so. For instance I’m not against abortion because God said so. I am against abortion because it is wrong to end a human life, especially for selfish reasons. My argument against abortion is based on science and is a legal argument. Do you believe I am forcing my relyupon you because I oppose abortion? Or am I participating in the secular process the same as you?

Your opposition to abortion is based on the agreement made with TV preachers to support anti-abortion in exchange for their support of the GOP. Abortion was accepted and mostly uncontroversial before the unholy alliance between Jerry Falwell and the GOP.

Nope. It is based on the scientific fact that at conception a new genetically distinct human being has come into existence. One that has never existed before and will never exist again. Can you dispute that fact? No. You can’t.

Additionally, since it is a new genetically distinct human being it is literally a specific person and should be afforded his or her inalienable right to life. That’s a legal argument.

So the only one mentioning religion in this discussion is you. That’s because you don’t have a scientific argument or a legal argument to make.

 

[BULLDOG]

I wasn't indoctrinated into any other religions as a child, and therefore never had any reason to believe other gods might exist. I did, however believe the "Christian" god existed. I now see no reason to believe that particular god exists either. I'm not opposed to the possibility of a god. If you have some rational reason to believe in one, please present that reason. The validation I once took for granted didn't hold up to scrutiny.

That really doesn't answer the question because it still sounds like you are rejecting the Christian religion.

Why don't you believe God exists? Why don't you believe that God created existence?

I don't think I can make it much simpler. I see no reason to believe a god exists because I see no reason to believe a god exists. I am completely open to the possibility, and if you have some rational reason, I would appreciate the opportunity to consider it, but so far, none has been presented, and my efforts to find such reason is not fruitful. You might note that I never said there is no god. I'll concede that as freely as I concede that unicorns might exist. Show me either one, and I'll be a believer.

Do you see a reason why God doesn’t exist? Because you believe that, right? You don’t have a reason to believe one way or another yet you have chosen to believe one way, right?

I have a rational reason why God created space and time. Is that good enough?

I have repeatedly said I believe it's possible that a god might exist just like unicorns might exist. Virtually anything is possible. I don't have any reason to believe that is the case, and I have no reason to modify my behavior because of the possibility that either one is real.

And my point is that it isn’t just as likely as unicorns existing. For you to consider the possibility of the existence of a creator to be like unicorns is illogical. I can make a case for the existence of a creator. A rather compelling argument no less. I can’t make an argument for a unicorn.

No one is asking you to modify your behaviors. You have free will just like everyone else. We are all subject to the consequences of our actions. At any point in our lives we are the sum of our choices. So whether one believes in God or not that will still be the case. But the practical benefits of faith far outweigh the benefits of no faith. Such that having no faith is irrational.

And no, not everything is virtually possible. Only the things which are potential under the physical, biological and moral laws of nature are possible. Furthermore, the potential existed before space and time existed because the laws of nature existed before space and time.

The reality is that you don’t have any reason to believe God doesn’t exist, but you do.

I have been very forthcoming and truthful on this subject. I have seen lots of evidence that seems to indicate that no god exists, but i haven't made that decision...yet. Don't try to put words into my mouth. I have no idea what might have existed before space and time, or if space or time might have had a beginning.

 

[ding]

That really doesn't answer the question because it still sounds like you are rejecting the Christian religion.

Why don't you believe God exists? Why don't you believe that God created existence?

I don't think I can make it much simpler. I see no reason to believe a god exists because I see no reason to believe a god exists. I am completely open to the possibility, and if you have some rational reason, I would appreciate the opportunity to consider it, but so far, none has been presented, and my efforts to find such reason is not fruitful. You might note that I never said there is no god. I'll concede that as freely as I concede that unicorns might exist. Show me either one, and I'll be a believer.

Do you see a reason why God doesn’t exist? Because you believe that, right? You don’t have a reason to believe one way or another yet you have chosen to believe one way, right?

I have a rational reason why God created space and time. Is that good enough?

I have repeatedly said I believe it's possible that a god might exist just like unicorns might exist. Virtually anything is possible. I don't have any reason to believe that is the case, and I have no reason to modify my behavior because of the possibility that either one is real.

And my point is that it isn’t just as likely as unicorns existing. For you to consider the possibility of the existence of a creator to be like unicorns is illogical. I can make a case for the existence of a creator. A rather compelling argument no less. I can’t make an argument for a unicorn.

No one is asking you to modify your behaviors. You have free will just like everyone else. We are all subject to the consequences of our actions. At any point in our lives we are the sum of our choices. So whether one believes in God or not that will still be the case. But the practical benefits of faith far outweigh the benefits of no faith. Such that having no faith is irrational.

And no, not everything is virtually possible. Only the things which are potential under the physical, biological and moral laws of nature are possible. Furthermore, the potential existed before space and time existed because the laws of nature existed before space and time.

The reality is that you don’t have any reason to believe God doesn’t exist, but you do.

I have been very forthcoming and truthful on this subject. I have seen lots of evidence that seems to indicate that no god exists, but i haven't made that decision...yet. Don't try to put words into my mouth. I have no idea what might have existed before space and time, or if space or time might have had a beginning.

What evidence have you seen that indicates God doesn’t exist?

Are you trying to tell me that you have evidence to prove a negative?

Because I’m pretty sure that isn’t possible.

 

[ding]

That really doesn't answer the question because it still sounds like you are rejecting the Christian religion.

Why don't you believe God exists? Why don't you believe that God created existence?

I don't think I can make it much simpler. I see no reason to believe a god exists because I see no reason to believe a god exists. I am completely open to the possibility, and if you have some rational reason, I would appreciate the opportunity to consider it, but so far, none has been presented, and my efforts to find such reason is not fruitful. You might note that I never said there is no god. I'll concede that as freely as I concede that unicorns might exist. Show me either one, and I'll be a believer.

Do you see a reason why God doesn’t exist? Because you believe that, right? You don’t have a reason to believe one way or another yet you have chosen to believe one way, right?

I have a rational reason why God created space and time. Is that good enough?

I have repeatedly said I believe it's possible that a god might exist just like unicorns might exist. Virtually anything is possible. I don't have any reason to believe that is the case, and I have no reason to modify my behavior because of the possibility that either one is real.

And my point is that it isn’t just as likely as unicorns existing. For you to consider the possibility of the existence of a creator to be like unicorns is illogical. I can make a case for the existence of a creator. A rather compelling argument no less. I can’t make an argument for a unicorn.

No one is asking you to modify your behaviors. You have free will just like everyone else. We are all subject to the consequences of our actions. At any point in our lives we are the sum of our choices. So whether one believes in God or not that will still be the case. But the practical benefits of faith far outweigh the benefits of no faith. Such that having no faith is irrational.

And no, not everything is virtually possible. Only the things which are potential under the physical, biological and moral laws of nature are possible. Furthermore, the potential existed before space and time existed because the laws of nature existed before space and time.

The reality is that you don’t have any reason to believe God doesn’t exist, but you do.

I have been very forthcoming and truthful on this subject. I have seen lots of evidence that seems to indicate that no god exists, but i haven't made that decision...yet. Don't try to put words into my mouth. I have no idea what might have existed before space and time, or if space or time might have had a beginning.

You have mostly been respectful and courteous during our discussion. And I’m sure you believe you have been forthcoming and honest. I have no doubt you believe what you say. But it isn’t logical to believe that the existence of unicorns is just as likely as the existence of a creator and it isn’t logical to believe you have evidence to prove a negative. So while you believe you are being honest about those beliefs it just doesn’t make any sense to actually believe those things.

 

[BULLDOG]

If you are a Christian, Christianity requires belief in only one god. Why don't you believe others exist?

I believe that before the material world existed that consciousness existed. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So you tell me, why would I believe there are multiple Gods when my perception of God is that God is consciousness without form? Because my answer is it doesn't make sense to me because I don't perceive God as you do.

So when you speak of multiple Gods it seems to me that you are again reverting back to multiple religions. Multiple religions just means there are multiple perceptions of God. Not multiple Gods.

Interesting. I have heard that theory, or theories much like it from lots of places. I'm not denigrating your belief, or your right to your belief/beliefs in any way. That is and always will be your choice. My only concern is when people with deeply held beliefs try to legislate or otherwise direct or limit my rights based on their particular religious beliefs. Live your life as you will. Of course, we are all required to abide by certain universal tenants. Theft, murder, lying, and a host of other actions are universally considered to be forbidden whether you believe in the existence of a god or not. "Because God said so" is not, and should not be a valid remark in any broad ranging discussion concerning the behavior of the population as a whole.

I can’t say I understand why you believe people are trying to force their religion upon you. It seems you are over reacting.

But I hear that complaint a lot. I just don’t agree that it is happening.

I don’t believe I have ever said because God said so. For instance I’m not against abortion because God said so. I am against abortion because it is wrong to end a human life, especially for selfish reasons. My argument against abortion is based on science and is a legal argument. Do you believe I am forcing my relyupon you because I oppose abortion? Or am I participating in the secular process the same as you?

Your opposition to abortion is based on the agreement made with TV preachers to support anti-abortion in exchange for their support of the GOP. Abortion was accepted and mostly uncontroversial before the unholy alliance between Jerry Falwell and the GOP.

liar..........................................




its in the fucking bible...........................

Yep, it's there, but not once does it say abortion is wrong. However, there are several passages where it is ordered and in one case,god served as an abortionist himself.

In Hosea 9:14, we are told God will cause the deaths of the unborn, as he will “give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.”

 

[ding]

I believe that before the material world existed that consciousness existed. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So you tell me, why would I believe there are multiple Gods when my perception of God is that God is consciousness without form? Because my answer is it doesn't make sense to me because I don't perceive God as you do.

So when you speak of multiple Gods it seems to me that you are again reverting back to multiple religions. Multiple religions just means there are multiple perceptions of God. Not multiple Gods.

Interesting. I have heard that theory, or theories much like it from lots of places. I'm not denigrating your belief, or your right to your belief/beliefs in any way. That is and always will be your choice. My only concern is when people with deeply held beliefs try to legislate or otherwise direct or limit my rights based on their particular religious beliefs. Live your life as you will. Of course, we are all required to abide by certain universal tenants. Theft, murder, lying, and a host of other actions are universally considered to be forbidden whether you believe in the existence of a god or not. "Because God said so" is not, and should not be a valid remark in any broad ranging discussion concerning the behavior of the population as a whole.

I can’t say I understand why you believe people are trying to force their religion upon you. It seems you are over reacting.

But I hear that complaint a lot. I just don’t agree that it is happening.

I don’t believe I have ever said because God said so. For instance I’m not against abortion because God said so. I am against abortion because it is wrong to end a human life, especially for selfish reasons. My argument against abortion is based on science and is a legal argument. Do you believe I am forcing my relyupon you because I oppose abortion? Or am I participating in the secular process the same as you?

Your opposition to abortion is based on the agreement made with TV preachers to support anti-abortion in exchange for their support of the GOP. Abortion was accepted and mostly uncontroversial before the unholy alliance between Jerry Falwell and the GOP.

liar..........................................




its in the fucking bible...........................

Yep, it's there, but not once does it say abortion is wrong. However, there are several passages where it is ordered and in one case,god served as an abortionist himself.

In Hosea 9:14, we are told God will cause the deaths of the unborn, as he will “give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.”

You don’t believe God exists or that the Bible is the word of God if he does exist, right?

So how can you believe that God opposes or approves of abortion?

Do you have any scientific or legal arguments in support of abortion?

 

[BULLDOG]

I wasn't indoctrinated into any other religions as a child, and therefore never had any reason to believe other gods might exist. I did, however believe the "Christian" god existed. I now see no reason to believe that particular god exists either. I'm not opposed to the possibility of a god. If you have some rational reason to believe in one, please present that reason. The validation I once took for granted didn't hold up to scrutiny.

That really doesn't answer the question because it still sounds like you are rejecting the Christian religion.

Why don't you believe God exists? Why don't you believe that God created existence?

I don't think I can make it much simpler. I see no reason to believe a god exists because I see no reason to believe a god exists. I am completely open to the possibility, and if you have some rational reason, I would appreciate the opportunity to consider it, but so far, none has been presented, and my efforts to find such reason is not fruitful. You might note that I never said there is no god. I'll concede that as freely as I concede that unicorns might exist. Show me either one, and I'll be a believer.

So just to be clear, do you believe that it is just as likely that unicorns exist as there is a creator who created space and time?

Because I’m pretty sure I can make an argument for a creator while you cannot make an argument for unicorns.

So do you really believe it is just as likely?

If you want to present a case for a god/creator, then please do. I will be happy to give it serious consideration. I suspect I have already looked at most of what you might say, because I didn't arrive at my belief lightly, but give it a shot. I welcome the opportunity to have my mind changed by credible evidence.

I have. Many times. I’m sure you have read it.

Based on your own words you do arrive at your beliefs lightly because you have no reason not to believe in a creator.

If I had no reason to believe as I do then I would have arrived at my beliefs lightly too. So don’t take what I said personally.

That's absurd, and I do take it personally.

 

[Wyatt earp]

I believe that before the material world existed that consciousness existed. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So you tell me, why would I believe there are multiple Gods when my perception of God is that God is consciousness without form? Because my answer is it doesn't make sense to me because I don't perceive God as you do.

So when you speak of multiple Gods it seems to me that you are again reverting back to multiple religions. Multiple religions just means there are multiple perceptions of God. Not multiple Gods.

Interesting. I have heard that theory, or theories much like it from lots of places. I'm not denigrating your belief, or your right to your belief/beliefs in any way. That is and always will be your choice. My only concern is when people with deeply held beliefs try to legislate or otherwise direct or limit my rights based on their particular religious beliefs. Live your life as you will. Of course, we are all required to abide by certain universal tenants. Theft, murder, lying, and a host of other actions are universally considered to be forbidden whether you believe in the existence of a god or not. "Because God said so" is not, and should not be a valid remark in any broad ranging discussion concerning the behavior of the population as a whole.

I can’t say I understand why you believe people are trying to force their religion upon you. It seems you are over reacting.

But I hear that complaint a lot. I just don’t agree that it is happening.

I don’t believe I have ever said because God said so. For instance I’m not against abortion because God said so. I am against abortion because it is wrong to end a human life, especially for selfish reasons. My argument against abortion is based on science and is a legal argument. Do you believe I am forcing my relyupon you because I oppose abortion? Or am I participating in the secular process the same as you?

Your opposition to abortion is based on the agreement made with TV preachers to support anti-abortion in exchange for their support of the GOP. Abortion was accepted and mostly uncontroversial before the unholy alliance between Jerry Falwell and the GOP.

liar..........................................




its in the fucking bible...........................

Yep, it's there, but not once does it say abortion is wrong. However, there are several passages where it is ordered and in one case,god served as an abortionist himself.

In Hosea 9:14, we are told God will cause the deaths of the unborn, as he will “give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.”

and you taking bible verses out of context why?


Hosea 9 King James Version (KJV)
9 Rejoice not, O Israel, for joy, as other people: for thou hast gone a whoring from thy God, thou hast loved a reward upon every cornfloor.

2 The floor and the winepress shall not feed them, and the new wine shall fail in her.

3 They shall not dwell in the Lord's land; but Ephraim shall return to Egypt, and they shall eat unclean things in Assyria.

4 They shall not offer wine offerings to the Lord, neither shall they be pleasing unto him: their sacrifices shall be unto them as the bread of mourners; all that eat thereof shall be polluted: for their bread for their soul shall not come into the house of the Lord.

5 What will ye do in the solemn day, and in the day of the feast of the Lord?

6 For, lo, they are gone because of destruction: Egypt shall gather them up, Memphis shall bury them: the pleasant places for their silver, nettles shall possess them: thorns shall be in their tabernacles.

7 The days of visitation are come, the days of recompence are come; Israel shall know it: the prophet is a fool, the spiritual man is mad, for the multitude of thine iniquity, and the great hatred.

8 The watchman of Ephraim was with my God: but the prophet is a snare of a fowler in all his ways, and hatred in the house of his God.

9 They have deeply corrupted themselves, as in the days of Gibeah: therefore he will remember their iniquity, he will visit their sins.

10 I found Israel like grapes in the wilderness; I saw your fathers as the firstripe in the fig tree at her first time: but they went to Baalpeor, and separated themselves unto that shame; and their abominations were according as they loved.

11 As for Ephraim, their glory shall fly away like a bird, from the birth, and from the womb, and from the conception.

12 Though they bring up their children, yet will I bereave them, that there shall not be a man left: yea, woe also to them when I depart from them!

13 Ephraim, as I saw Tyrus, is planted in a pleasant place: but Ephraim shall bring forth his children to the murderer.

14 Give them, O Lord: what wilt thou give? give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.

15 All their wickedness is in Gilgal: for there I hated them: for the wickedness of their doings I will drive them out of mine house, I will love them no more: all their princes are revolters.

16 Ephraim is smitten, their root is dried up, they shall bear no fruit: yea, though they bring forth, yet will I slay even the beloved fruit of their womb.

17 My God will cast them away, because they did not hearken unto him: and they shall be wanderers among the nations.

 

[ding]

That really doesn't answer the question because it still sounds like you are rejecting the Christian religion.

Why don't you believe God exists? Why don't you believe that God created existence?

I don't think I can make it much simpler. I see no reason to believe a god exists because I see no reason to believe a god exists. I am completely open to the possibility, and if you have some rational reason, I would appreciate the opportunity to consider it, but so far, none has been presented, and my efforts to find such reason is not fruitful. You might note that I never said there is no god. I'll concede that as freely as I concede that unicorns might exist. Show me either one, and I'll be a believer.

So just to be clear, do you believe that it is just as likely that unicorns exist as there is a creator who created space and time?

Because I’m pretty sure I can make an argument for a creator while you cannot make an argument for unicorns.

So do you really believe it is just as likely?

If you want to present a case for a god/creator, then please do. I will be happy to give it serious consideration. I suspect I have already looked at most of what you might say, because I didn't arrive at my belief lightly, but give it a shot. I welcome the opportunity to have my mind changed by credible evidence.

I have. Many times. I’m sure you have read it.

Based on your own words you do arrive at your beliefs lightly because you have no reason not to believe in a creator.

If I had no reason to believe as I do then I would have arrived at my beliefs lightly too. So don’t take what I said personally.

That's absurd, and I do take it personally.

You shouldn’t. People make mistakes all the time. I apologize if what I wrote offended you.

 

[ding]

That really doesn't answer the question because it still sounds like you are rejecting the Christian religion.

Why don't you believe God exists? Why don't you believe that God created existence?

I don't think I can make it much simpler. I see no reason to believe a god exists because I see no reason to believe a god exists. I am completely open to the possibility, and if you have some rational reason, I would appreciate the opportunity to consider it, but so far, none has been presented, and my efforts to find such reason is not fruitful. You might note that I never said there is no god. I'll concede that as freely as I concede that unicorns might exist. Show me either one, and I'll be a believer.

So just to be clear, do you believe that it is just as likely that unicorns exist as there is a creator who created space and time?

Because I’m pretty sure I can make an argument for a creator while you cannot make an argument for unicorns.

So do you really believe it is just as likely?

If you want to present a case for a god/creator, then please do. I will be happy to give it serious consideration. I suspect I have already looked at most of what you might say, because I didn't arrive at my belief lightly, but give it a shot. I welcome the opportunity to have my mind changed by credible evidence.

I have. Many times. I’m sure you have read it.

Based on your own words you do arrive at your beliefs lightly because you have no reason not to believe in a creator.

If I had no reason to believe as I do then I would have arrived at my beliefs lightly too. So don’t take what I said personally.

That's absurd, and I do take it personally.

It’s not absurd at all. How is it absurd?

 

[BULLDOG]

If you are a Christian, Christianity requires belief in only one god. Why don't you believe others exist?

I believe that before the material world existed that consciousness existed. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So you tell me, why would I believe there are multiple Gods when my perception of God is that God is consciousness without form? Because my answer is it doesn't make sense to me because I don't perceive God as you do.

So when you speak of multiple Gods it seems to me that you are again reverting back to multiple religions. Multiple religions just means there are multiple perceptions of God. Not multiple Gods.

Interesting. I have heard that theory, or theories much like it from lots of places. I'm not denigrating your belief, or your right to your belief/beliefs in any way. That is and always will be your choice. My only concern is when people with deeply held beliefs try to legislate or otherwise direct or limit my rights based on their particular religious beliefs. Live your life as you will. Of course, we are all required to abide by certain universal tenants. Theft, murder, lying, and a host of other actions are universally considered to be forbidden whether you believe in the existence of a god or not. "Because God said so" is not, and should not be a valid remark in any broad ranging discussion concerning the behavior of the population as a whole.

I can’t say I understand why you believe people are trying to force their religion upon you. It seems you are over reacting.

But I hear that complaint a lot. I just don’t agree that it is happening.

I don’t believe I have ever said because God said so. For instance I’m not against abortion because God said so. I am against abortion because it is wrong to end a human life, especially for selfish reasons. My argument against abortion is based on science and is a legal argument. Do you believe I am forcing my relyupon you because I oppose abortion? Or am I participating in the secular process the same as you?

Your opposition to abortion is based on the agreement made with TV preachers to support anti-abortion in exchange for their support of the GOP. Abortion was accepted and mostly uncontroversial before the unholy alliance between Jerry Falwell and the GOP.

Nope. It is based on the scientific fact that at conception a new genetically distinct human being has come into existence. One that has never existed before and will never exist again. Can you dispute that fact? No. You can’t.

Additionally, since it is a new genetically distinct human being it is literally a specific person and should be afforded his or her inalienable right to life. That’s a legal argument.

So the only one mentioning religion in this discussion is you. That’s because you don’t have a scientific argument or a legal argument to make.

A small cluster of cells that cannot exist without total support from the body it is in is hardly a distinct human being. The apparatus required for sentient existence is not there.

 

[BULLDOG]

I don't think I can make it much simpler. I see no reason to believe a god exists because I see no reason to believe a god exists. I am completely open to the possibility, and if you have some rational reason, I would appreciate the opportunity to consider it, but so far, none has been presented, and my efforts to find such reason is not fruitful. You might note that I never said there is no god. I'll concede that as freely as I concede that unicorns might exist. Show me either one, and I'll be a believer.

Do you see a reason why God doesn’t exist? Because you believe that, right? You don’t have a reason to believe one way or another yet you have chosen to believe one way, right?

I have a rational reason why God created space and time. Is that good enough?

I have repeatedly said I believe it's possible that a god might exist just like unicorns might exist. Virtually anything is possible. I don't have any reason to believe that is the case, and I have no reason to modify my behavior because of the possibility that either one is real.

And my point is that it isn’t just as likely as unicorns existing. For you to consider the possibility of the existence of a creator to be like unicorns is illogical. I can make a case for the existence of a creator. A rather compelling argument no less. I can’t make an argument for a unicorn.

No one is asking you to modify your behaviors. You have free will just like everyone else. We are all subject to the consequences of our actions. At any point in our lives we are the sum of our choices. So whether one believes in God or not that will still be the case. But the practical benefits of faith far outweigh the benefits of no faith. Such that having no faith is irrational.

And no, not everything is virtually possible. Only the things which are potential under the physical, biological and moral laws of nature are possible. Furthermore, the potential existed before space and time existed because the laws of nature existed before space and time.

The reality is that you don’t have any reason to believe God doesn’t exist, but you do.

I have been very forthcoming and truthful on this subject. I have seen lots of evidence that seems to indicate that no god exists, but i haven't made that decision...yet. Don't try to put words into my mouth. I have no idea what might have existed before space and time, or if space or time might have had a beginning.

What evidence have you seen that indicates God doesn’t exist?

Are you trying to tell me that you have evidence to prove a negative?

Because I’m pretty sure that isn’t possible.

I have heard reasonable arguments claiming god doesn't exist. As I said, I haven't accepted that as fact, and as such it is immaterial in this discussion.

 

[ding]

I believe that before the material world existed that consciousness existed. That Mind, rather than emerging as a late outgrowth in the evolution of life, has existed always as the matrix, the source and condition of physical reality - that the stuff of which physical reality is composed is mind-stuff. It is Mind that has composed a physical universe that breeds life, and so eventually evolves creatures that know and create.

So you tell me, why would I believe there are multiple Gods when my perception of God is that God is consciousness without form? Because my answer is it doesn't make sense to me because I don't perceive God as you do.

So when you speak of multiple Gods it seems to me that you are again reverting back to multiple religions. Multiple religions just means there are multiple perceptions of God. Not multiple Gods.

Interesting. I have heard that theory, or theories much like it from lots of places. I'm not denigrating your belief, or your right to your belief/beliefs in any way. That is and always will be your choice. My only concern is when people with deeply held beliefs try to legislate or otherwise direct or limit my rights based on their particular religious beliefs. Live your life as you will. Of course, we are all required to abide by certain universal tenants. Theft, murder, lying, and a host of other actions are universally considered to be forbidden whether you believe in the existence of a god or not. "Because God said so" is not, and should not be a valid remark in any broad ranging discussion concerning the behavior of the population as a whole.

I can’t say I understand why you believe people are trying to force their religion upon you. It seems you are over reacting.

But I hear that complaint a lot. I just don’t agree that it is happening.

I don’t believe I have ever said because God said so. For instance I’m not against abortion because God said so. I am against abortion because it is wrong to end a human life, especially for selfish reasons. My argument against abortion is based on science and is a legal argument. Do you believe I am forcing my relyupon you because I oppose abortion? Or am I participating in the secular process the same as you?

Your opposition to abortion is based on the agreement made with TV preachers to support anti-abortion in exchange for their support of the GOP. Abortion was accepted and mostly uncontroversial before the unholy alliance between Jerry Falwell and the GOP.

Nope. It is based on the scientific fact that at conception a new genetically distinct human being has come into existence. One that has never existed before and will never exist again. Can you dispute that fact? No. You can’t.

Additionally, since it is a new genetically distinct human being it is literally a specific person and should be afforded his or her inalienable right to life. That’s a legal argument.

So the only one mentioning religion in this discussion is you. That’s because you don’t have a scientific argument or a legal argument to make.

A small cluster of cells that cannot exist without total support from the body it is in is hardly a distinct human being. The apparatus required for sentient existence is not there.

First of all no abortions are performed when that human life you describe as a cluster of cells is in its earliest stage of the human life cycle.

At conception a new genetically distinct human being has come into existence. Rather than admitting this scientific fact, you are literally dehumanizing a human life.

Secondly, at every stage along the continuum, this new human life has the attributes it should have for that stage of the human life cycle which begins at conception and ends at death. Every step along the journey from conception to death he or she is fully human. Do you deny this?

 

[ding]

Do you see a reason why God doesn’t exist? Because you believe that, right? You don’t have a reason to believe one way or another yet you have chosen to believe one way, right?

I have a rational reason why God created space and time. Is that good enough?

I have repeatedly said I believe it's possible that a god might exist just like unicorns might exist. Virtually anything is possible. I don't have any reason to believe that is the case, and I have no reason to modify my behavior because of the possibility that either one is real.

And my point is that it isn’t just as likely as unicorns existing. For you to consider the possibility of the existence of a creator to be like unicorns is illogical. I can make a case for the existence of a creator. A rather compelling argument no less. I can’t make an argument for a unicorn.

No one is asking you to modify your behaviors. You have free will just like everyone else. We are all subject to the consequences of our actions. At any point in our lives we are the sum of our choices. So whether one believes in God or not that will still be the case. But the practical benefits of faith far outweigh the benefits of no faith. Such that having no faith is irrational.

And no, not everything is virtually possible. Only the things which are potential under the physical, biological and moral laws of nature are possible. Furthermore, the potential existed before space and time existed because the laws of nature existed before space and time.

The reality is that you don’t have any reason to believe God doesn’t exist, but you do.

I have been very forthcoming and truthful on this subject. I have seen lots of evidence that seems to indicate that no god exists, but i haven't made that decision...yet. Don't try to put words into my mouth. I have no idea what might have existed before space and time, or if space or time might have had a beginning.

What evidence have you seen that indicates God doesn’t exist?

Are you trying to tell me that you have evidence to prove a negative?

Because I’m pretty sure that isn’t possible.

I have heard reasonable arguments claiming god doesn't exist. As I said, I haven't accepted that as fact, and as such it is immaterial in this discussion.

No. You literally said you have seen lots of evidence that seems to indicate that God does not exist.

Would you like to retract that claim?

 

[BULLDOG]

I don't think I can make it much simpler. I see no reason to believe a god exists because I see no reason to believe a god exists. I am completely open to the possibility, and if you have some rational reason, I would appreciate the opportunity to consider it, but so far, none has been presented, and my efforts to find such reason is not fruitful. You might note that I never said there is no god. I'll concede that as freely as I concede that unicorns might exist. Show me either one, and I'll be a believer.

Do you see a reason why God doesn’t exist? Because you believe that, right? You don’t have a reason to believe one way or another yet you have chosen to believe one way, right?

I have a rational reason why God created space and time. Is that good enough?

I have repeatedly said I believe it's possible that a god might exist just like unicorns might exist. Virtually anything is possible. I don't have any reason to believe that is the case, and I have no reason to modify my behavior because of the possibility that either one is real.

And my point is that it isn’t just as likely as unicorns existing. For you to consider the possibility of the existence of a creator to be like unicorns is illogical. I can make a case for the existence of a creator. A rather compelling argument no less. I can’t make an argument for a unicorn.

No one is asking you to modify your behaviors. You have free will just like everyone else. We are all subject to the consequences of our actions. At any point in our lives we are the sum of our choices. So whether one believes in God or not that will still be the case. But the practical benefits of faith far outweigh the benefits of no faith. Such that having no faith is irrational.

And no, not everything is virtually possible. Only the things which are potential under the physical, biological and moral laws of nature are possible. Furthermore, the potential existed before space and time existed because the laws of nature existed before space and time.

The reality is that you don’t have any reason to believe God doesn’t exist, but you do.

I have been very forthcoming and truthful on this subject. I have seen lots of evidence that seems to indicate that no god exists, but i haven't made that decision...yet. Don't try to put words into my mouth. I have no idea what might have existed before space and time, or if space or time might have had a beginning.

You have mostly been respectful and courteous during our discussion. And I’m sure you believe you have been forthcoming and honest. I have no doubt you believe what you say. But it isn’t logical to believe that the existence of unicorns is just as likely as the existence of a creator and it isn’t logical to believe you have evidence to prove a negative. So while you believe you are being honest about those beliefs it just doesn’t make any sense to actually believe those things.

You are free to believe what you will. I have seen no more believable proof that a god exists than that unicorns exist.

 

[BULLDOG]

Interesting. I have heard that theory, or theories much like it from lots of places. I'm not denigrating your belief, or your right to your belief/beliefs in any way. That is and always will be your choice. My only concern is when people with deeply held beliefs try to legislate or otherwise direct or limit my rights based on their particular religious beliefs. Live your life as you will. Of course, we are all required to abide by certain universal tenants. Theft, murder, lying, and a host of other actions are universally considered to be forbidden whether you believe in the existence of a god or not. "Because God said so" is not, and should not be a valid remark in any broad ranging discussion concerning the behavior of the population as a whole.

I can’t say I understand why you believe people are trying to force their religion upon you. It seems you are over reacting.

But I hear that complaint a lot. I just don’t agree that it is happening.

I don’t believe I have ever said because God said so. For instance I’m not against abortion because God said so. I am against abortion because it is wrong to end a human life, especially for selfish reasons. My argument against abortion is based on science and is a legal argument. Do you believe I am forcing my relyupon you because I oppose abortion? Or am I participating in the secular process the same as you?

Your opposition to abortion is based on the agreement made with TV preachers to support anti-abortion in exchange for their support of the GOP. Abortion was accepted and mostly uncontroversial before the unholy alliance between Jerry Falwell and the GOP.

liar..........................................




its in the fucking bible...........................

Yep, it's there, but not once does it say abortion is wrong. However, there are several passages where it is ordered and in one case,god served as an abortionist himself.

In Hosea 9:14, we are told God will cause the deaths of the unborn, as he will “give them a miscarrying womb and dry breasts.”

You don’t believe God exists or that the Bible is the word of God if he does exist, right?

So how can you believe that God opposes or approves of abortion?

Do you have any scientific or legal arguments in support of abortion?

Obligations call. Perhaps later.