If A Terrorist Group of Mexicans

[P F Tinmore]

And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?

If these are terrorists, then they’re criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to ‘retaliate’ into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.

But the West Bank and Gaza isn’t recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.

The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response – to attack civilian targets with a First World military force – violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesn’t mitigate the fact that Israel’s policy is illegal.

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation – Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesn’t care; given the current government it’s most likely the latter.

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel ...

I see that a lot but those rockets do not cross any border.

the point of this thread was to examine the double standard... not to encourage perpetuation of that double standard. and my preference was that it not be yet another trash thread out of the is'/pal forum.

thanks.

I am not trashing a thread. I am just stating fact. There is no border between Gaza and Israel.

 

[MHunterB]

I'm still waiting to see the actual words of the 'Palestinian Constitution': I don't care *who* presumably helped write it, that was irrelevent to its actual specific content.

Nor has PFT provided any support for his allegations about Israeli laws 'disriminating against nonJews' as he had claimed.

Now it appears he has a unique definition of what the word 'border' means.

 

[koshergrl]

Are you going somewhere with that observation? Are you implying that since it's impossible, we should just let them kill all the Jews in the Middle East, and ultimately, everywhere? I mean, honestly, there's never going to be worldwide peace...so why ever defend anyone?

Yes that is a quandry.
They will continue to kill and squabble no matter what we do.
Both sides have valid points.
Should we side with either of them to wipe out the other side?
Some one will side with the wiped out side and replace them...
Actually more than 2 sides are involved....

so do we keep playing their game?
or let them work it out?

Ban all weapons in the area and kill anyone with a weapon regardelss of the side?
UN storm troopers on every corner?
That would likely be the best way to pull the opposite sides together for a time, till they defeated the ones opressing them and preventing them from killing each other?

Yeah, well, I don't see it that way. There may be two sides, but only one is worthy of our support. I have yet to see the Israeli Army using their own people as human shields or strapping bombs onto children.

 

[P F Tinmore]

I'm still waiting to see the actual words of the 'Palestinian Constitution': I don't care *who* presumably helped write it, that was irrelevent to its actual specific content.

Nor has PFT provided any support for his allegations about Israeli laws 'disriminating against nonJews' as he had claimed.

Now it appears he has a unique definition of what the word 'border' means.

Title Two – Public Rights and Liberties

Article 9

Palestinians shall be equal before the law and the judiciary, without distinction based upon race, sex, color, religion, political views or disability.

Article 10

Basic human rights and liberties shall be protected and respected.
The Palestinian National Authority shall work without delay to become a party to regional and international declarations and covenants that protect human rights.

Article 11

Personal freedom is a natural right, shall be guaranteed and may not be violated.
It is unlawful to arrest, search, imprison, restrict the freedom, or prevent the movement of any person, except by judicial order in accordance with the provisions of the law. The law shall specify the period of prearrest detention. Imprisonment or detention shall only be permitted in places that are subject to laws related to the organization of prisons.

Article 12

Every arrested or detained person shall be informed of the reason for their arrest or detention. They shall be promptly informed, in a language they understand, of the nature of the charges brought against them. They shall have the right to contact a lawyer and to be tried before a court without delay.

Article 13

No person shall be subject to any duress or torture. Indictees and all persons deprived of their freedom shall receive proper treatment.
All statements or confessions obtained through violation of the provisions contained in paragraph 1 of this article shall be considered null and void.

Article 14

An accused person is considered innocent until proven guilty in a court of law that guarantees the accused the right to a defense. Any person accused in a criminal case shall be represented by a lawyer.

Article 15

Punishment shall be personal. Collective punishment is prohibited. Crime and punishment shall only be determined by the law. Punishment shall be imposed only by judicial order and shall apply only to actions committed after the entry into force of the law.

Article 16

It is unlawful to conduct any medical or scientific experiment on any person without prior legal consent. No person shall be subject to medical examination, treatment or surgery, except in accordance with the law.

Transplantation of human organs and new scientific developments shall be regulated by the law in order to serve legitimate humanitarian purposes.

Article 17

Homes shall be inviolable; they may not be subject to surveillance, broken into or searched, except in accordance with a valid judicial order and in accordance with the provisions of the law.

Any consequences resulting from violations of this article shall be considered invalid. Individuals who suffer from such violation shall be entitled to a fair remedy, guaranteed by the Palestinian National Authority.

Article 18

Freedom of belief, worship and the performance of religious functions are guaranteed, provided public order or public morals are not violated.

Article 19

Freedom of opinion may not be prejudiced. Every person shall have the right to express his opinion and to circulate it orally, in writing or in any form of expression or art, with due consideration to the provisions of the law.

2003 Amended Basic Law | The Palestinian Basic Law

I have to be at work in 6 hours. I can look up those other items if you wish.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

I see that a lot but those rockets do not cross any border.

the point of this thread was to examine the double standard... not to encourage perpetuation of that double standard. and my preference was that it not be yet another trash thread out of the is'/pal forum.

thanks.

I am not trashing a thread. I am just stating fact. There is no border between Gaza and Israel.

There is no border between California and Oregon either, what's your point?

 

[Cowman]

If you're wanting to make that analogy, us demolishing the mexican civilian population and really putting the shoe to them for things that the mexican cartels do, is what Israel is doing to the majority of palestinians.

 

[idb]

The analogy is speculative because the US has never annexed territory from Mexico so "retaliation" would clearly be illegal...oh, hang on........

 

[editec]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

I doubt anyone, regardless of their POV about Isreal, is really CONFUSED about why Israel responds to attacks in kind, Jill.

You and I both know that the day-to-day fighting and attacks aren't really the issue that the pro-Zionists and anti-Zionists are debating.



WE can try to paint on side as pure evil the other as saintly, we can search back in history to try to decide who has more right to control, we can piss and moan about this opportunity for peace or that, we can debate how many terrorists can dance on the head of a pin, but NONE OD THAT is really the issue, is it?

The issue remains exactly what it was in 1948.

Who controls the land, the Moslems or the Jews?

who lost the wars?

The Palestinian/Arab nations.

what other group lost and had hysteria from other parts of the world demanding a do-over, or more absurdly, demanding a return of the land that was lost.

The Palestinian/Arab nations.

i always say, half tongue in cheek, that i want my great grandfather's land in belarus back.

Well, Jill, if you had the power to impose your will on the people of Belarus you'd have it

but are the pals any different than my family who had to leave where they were from?

Apparently they think so, and given that many of them are still living in Israel, and they're still lobbing rockets into Israeli cities, they ARE different than you family (or mine, too)

stuff happens.

Yeah, that was actually sort of MY point, too.

i don't see anyone demanding that my family property be returned to me, or more absurdly, a 'right of return'.

Me, neither. So what?

do you think irish who left because of the troubles are entitled to the return of what they left?

I suppose they would be if they choose to AND they had the military power to impose their will.

it's the double standard accorded these people that i'm asking about.

Oh its exactly the same standard for the Israeli as it is for every other nation or people, Jill. ---- Might is making RIGHT.

and with any other country "THERE IS NO QUESTION" about who controls the land...

Nonsense. There are disputes about who owns land all over the world, Jill. And without exception, them what has the most MIGHT will find that they have the RIGHT to impose thier will on those without it.

same as we control Texas and California

Exactly, right.

So you DO really understand my point.

The USA owns Texas and California because it took them by force.

The Israeli do control that land because they had the MIGHT to give them the RIGHT.

The Palestinians continue to fight because they still have SOME MIGHT which gives them THAT RIGHT.


My point here hopefully is clear.

Trying to impose a MORAL component on GEOPOLITICS is silly.

NATIONS do not CARE about morality. they are NOT held to any moral standard EXCEPT by force

Isreal does not, the USA does not, the Palestinians do not NOBODY is held to any moral standard if they have the MIGHT to define their RIGHTS.

 

[Truthseeker420]

No. actually the most peaceful time was the time the land was inhabited by the Israelites, during the rule of King David and King Solomon. which was eons prior to the Ottoman control.

and the land is not being constantly de-stablized for oil. it's being de-stabilized because Jerusalem is a Holy city and they have been fighting over it eversince.

What evidence do you have to believe that? most Historians agree that was a time of many wars and even the Bible says the Jews slaughtered the Canaanites and fought with the Philistines(Palestinians) until Rome took control.

The Peleset or P'lishtim - Philistines - had a confederation of five TINY city-states in the vicinity of Gaza. Their culture has been extinct since Biblical times - Samson was in the pre-Davidic period of Judges. The Philistines were no relation to the current Semitic people known as 'Palestinians'.

That's not rue, they have been mentioned in text of every power that has controlled that area from the time of Canaan. They were highly civilized and powerful people that were part of Canaan society that could not be defeated by the Hebrews.

 

[sealadaigh]

And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?

If these are terrorists, then they’re criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to ‘retaliate’ into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.

But the West Bank and Gaza isn’t recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.

The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response – to attack civilian targets with a First World military force – violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesn’t mitigate the fact that Israel’s policy is illegal.

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation – Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesn’t care; given the current government it’s most likely the latter.

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel ...

I see that a lot but those rockets do not cross any border.

the point of this thread was to examine the double standard... not to encourage perpetuation of that double standard. and my preference was that it not be yet another trash thread out of the is'/pal forum.

thanks.

it was a legitimate response. if you set up a fictitious scenario, it is subect to a very wide interpretation. P F is about as far from a trash poster as you can get. he is extrordinarily polite and civil.

there is a lehal and internationally recognised border between the USA and mexico. there is none between israel and palestine. that applies to the sovereignty of what you were discussing.

 

[sealadaigh]

I'm still waiting to see the actual words of the 'Palestinian Constitution': I don't care *who* presumably helped write it, that was irrelevent to its actual specific content.

Nor has PFT provided any support for his allegations about Israeli laws 'disriminating against nonJews' as he had claimed.

Now it appears he has a unique definition of what the word 'border' means.

and i am still waiting to see the actual words of israel's constitution.

http://www.adalah.org/upfiles/2011/Adalah_The_Inequality_Report_March_2011.pdf

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/24/opinion/not-all-israeli-citizens-are-equal.html

Israel Knesset: New Israel laws discriminate against Israeli Arabs, critics say - Los Angeles Times

 

[MHunterB]

What is MOST interesting is what PF left OUT of his quote from the PLO 'Constitution'.

 

[MHunterB]

If you're wanting to make that analogy, us demolishing the mexican civilian population and really putting the shoe to them for things that the mexican cartels do, is what Israel is doing to the majority of palestinians.

Where are you getting that 'majority of Palestinians'???? The majority in Gaza? Doesn't HAMAS have ANY responsibility to refrain from stashing their rockets next to schools, hospitals, etc?

Why not address the choice of HAMAS to maximize potential civilian casualties in the event of attacks which they have to know WILL come while they try to blow up kindergartens and school buses?

 

[MHunterB]

Article 4
1.Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect for the sanctity of all other divine religions shall be maintained.
2.The principles of Islamic Shari’a shall be a principal source of legislation.
3.Arabic shall be the official language.


There is no way to maintain 'equal' rights while having a state religion, so many critics of Israel state.
How does one maintain a democracy with a religion-specific legal basis?


Article 7

Palestinian citizenship shall be regulated by law.

There were about 950,000 people across the Arab lands in the ME who found out that their citizenship and EVERYTHING they owned - including their land - could be legislated out from under them. They were redefined 'democratically' by legislative means as "hostile aliens" and ejected from their countries. They were ethnic Arabs, yes.

 

[MHunterB]

"That's not rue, they have been mentioned in text of every power that has controlled that area from the time of Canaan. They were highly civilized and powerful people that were part of Canaan society that could not be defeated by the Hebrews."

'Truthseeker', the P'lishtim were Sea Peoples like the Phonecians: they were not part of C'na'an at all. I will find you sources from archaeological excavations if you insist. Meanwhile, where are *your* sources? I ask because people sometimes claim, for example, that 'Josephus talks about Christ' and such - but it's been known in professional circles that those passages are later interpolations.

Also, I did not state -as you appear to think I did! - that the Israelites did not wipe out the Peleset. Yes, they were spoken of in the Bible as being at war, but that is hardly a 'historical' reference.

Incidentally, even quite orthodox Jews do not interpret the Hebrew Bible so literally as do modern 'born-again' and many other Christians do. The rules of exegesis are also different (should be obvious, but people seldom think about that!).

 

[Katzndogz]

Egypt stands with the Palestinians today. I do believe the arab world will get it's wish and eradicate Israel. But I hope Israel does some heavy damage before they disappear.

Israel can turn the whole of the middle east into a warm glow and they should. Islam needs to be shoveled back into the hole it crawled out of.

 

[WillowTree]

Egypt stands with the Palestinians today. I do believe the arab world will get it's wish and eradicate Israel. But I hope Israel does some heavy damage before they disappear.

Israel can turn the whole of the middle east into a warm glow and they should. Islam needs to be shoveled back into the hole it crawled out of.

Well I thought about that, works except they are right in the middle of said warm glow! They'd have to evacuate the population about 8 million which would be a dead give a way.


Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Dot Com]

Willlow's right. (I post that about 3X/year )

 

[Quantum Windbag]

If you're wanting to make that analogy, us demolishing the mexican civilian population and really putting the shoe to them for things that the mexican cartels do, is what Israel is doing to the majority of palestinians.

Actually, no. The majority of Palestinians support Hamas, the majority of Mexicans oppose the drug cartels. This can easily be demonstrated by the fact that Hamas won an election in Gaza, yet the Cartels have never won one in Mexico.

 

[jillian]

Egypt stands with the Palestinians today. I do believe the arab world will get it's wish and eradicate Israel. But I hope Israel does some heavy damage before they disappear.

Israel can turn the whole of the middle east into a warm glow and they should. Islam needs to be shoveled back into the hole it crawled out of.

Well I thought about that, works except they are right in the middle of said warm glow! They'd have to evacuate the population about 8 million which would be a dead give a way.


Demographics of Israel - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

yep. and turning the region into a sheet of glass kind of defeats the whole purpose, doesn't it?