If A Terrorist Group of Mexicans

[RetiredGySgt]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

the Propaganda spin media is the problem. being thousands of miles away the media over there(Jew run) AND over here(Jew run) can spin the truth and make it appear like Hamas is lobbing missles at them. For all we know they're lobbing missles at their own people to get a war started - ie - Hitler burning down the Reichstag and blaming somebody else. same thing here.

In America, since we live here, we would know it almost immediately if we got hit because of Alternative News outlets that don't give a fuck about the spin media.

Never trust a Jew run media.

You just proved how biased you are, claiming the Jews fired on themselves, Hamas ADMITS they fire on Israel, Iran ADMITS they send them the rockets missiles and mortars to attack with, as well now as drones.

Jew dominated news service, give me a break.

 

[Nightson]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

I also agree that any sovereign nation capable of protecting its citizens from imminent threat has the right to do so. Unfortunately for Israel their geopolitical postion seems to be viewed by the rest of the civilized world as tantamount to perpetually on the verge of igniting a global powder keg. Its almost as if Israeli leaders must ask for permission of her allies to respond militarily in any way. If such is true, then the Israeli people are living constantly between a rock and a hard place.

I know that Israeli leaders depend on international aid in many forms--the U.S. in particular--for the continued benefit of their state, but when the missles are reigning down, they should put the safety of their people above appeasment of international allies. The Israelis have the capability to react, they should do so immediately to protect their citizens and worry about justifying their actions afer the threat has been destroyed.

 

[C_Clayton_Jones]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?

If these are terrorists, then they’re criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to ‘retaliate’ into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.

But the West Bank and Gaza isn’t recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.

The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response – to attack civilian targets with a First World military force – violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesn’t mitigate the fact that Israel’s policy is illegal.

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation – Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesn’t care; given the current government it’s most likely the latter.

 

[koshergrl]

Hamas needs to be wiped off the face of the earth. They hide behind civilians. The civilian deaths are on their putrid souls.

 

[The Infidel]

hey, willow...

have you ever been?

Have I ever been to Israel? You asked me that once before. I said Yes. We had a conversation about that. Did you forget?

you know, i did forget. apologies. it's been a long few weeks here.

i'm supposed to go back in march. not so sure that's going to happen now.

Please be extremely careful Jillie.
I need ya here to yell at me every once in a while.

 

[Truthseeker420]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yb3vF6Vcjr0]Ron Paul - Israel Created Hamas 01-09-09 - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h1fYDBib39s]Pink Floyd - Song for Palestine - YouTube[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tLDyybNv1Iw]Free Palestine - Genocide - (Rap Song) - YouTube[/ame]

 

[jillian]

^^^^^^

proves my point, willow

 

[jillian]

Have I ever been to Israel? You asked me that once before. I said Yes. We had a conversation about that. Did you forget?

you know, i did forget. apologies. it's been a long few weeks here.

i'm supposed to go back in march. not so sure that's going to happen now.

Please be extremely careful Jillie.
I need ya here to yell at me every once in a while.

heh... thanks.

it's not my intention to be off'd by a khadusha missile. knock wood.

 

[WillowTree]

^^^^^^

proves my point, willow

About Paul? point taken,, the rap one though proves my point, the hatred comes from the left.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?

If these are terrorists, then they’re criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to ‘retaliate’ into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.

But the West Bank and Gaza isn’t recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.

The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response – to attack civilian targets with a First World military force – violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesn’t mitigate the fact that Israel’s policy is illegal.

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation – Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesn’t care; given the current government it’s most likely the latter.

If the government doesn't stop them I can easily argue that they are sanctioning them. It isn't that easy to set up a long rang missile without anyone noticing, and Hamas is part of the government of Gaza.

 

[Truthseeker420]

Egypt stands with the Palestinians today. I do believe the arab world will get it's wish and eradicate Israel. But I hope Israel does some heavy damage before they disappear.

I hope for peace,that they live side by side as the Bible says brothers should...

 

[MHunterB]

The most peaceful time was under Ottoman control then the discovered oil, next was WW1, so we(western powers) have been destabilizing the ME since...

No. actually the most peaceful time was the time the land was inhabited by the Israelites, during the rule of King David and King Solomon. which was eons prior to the Ottoman control.

and the land is not being constantly de-stablized for oil. it's being de-stabilized because Jerusalem is a Holy city and they have been fighting over it eversince.

What evidence do you have to believe that? most Historians agree that was a time of many wars and even the Bible says the Jews slaughtered the Canaanites and fought with the Philistines(Palestinians) until Rome took control.

The Peleset or P'lishtim - Philistines - had a confederation of five TINY city-states in the vicinity of Gaza. Their culture has been extinct since Biblical times - Samson was in the pre-Davidic period of Judges. The Philistines were no relation to the current Semitic people known as 'Palestinians'.

 

[P F Tinmore]

i don't want your church having ANYTHING to do with my life.

thanks.

and our constitution specifically prohibits it from having anything to do with my life.

Thank G-d.

I agree.
I also see the same Constitution protects equal and free exercise of religion.

So to be fair, if you don't want people imposing their views on yours,
then please have equal respect for people who do "believe" in the Palestinians having
equal spiritual identity and sovereignty as their Jewish neighbors. if people have different beliefs, just take responsibility for that without imposing on someone else who disagrees!

If only the people who agree to share the land peacefully are allowed citizenship and residency rights to live there, then anyone who believes in imposing one view over another would be deported and have to leave. Only if you are a guest of someone else who agrees to take legal responsibility for you, could you also be there under that status. If the guest violates laws to disrupt the peace, then both the guest and the sponsor would be held responsible. So the same policy of taking responsibility could work with border/sovereignty issues in the Middle East as with immigration and border issues in America. As long as the people who believe in helping immigrants take responsibility instead of dumping this on others, we wouldn't have this problem we have now.

Good post, thanks.

If only the people who agree to share the land peacefully are allowed citizenship and residency rights to live there,...

It is interesting to note that when the PLO defined who is a Palestinian, they included native Jews to be citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians are equal under the law without regard to race, religion, sex, etc..

Israel, on the other hand, has no constitutional guarantee of equal rights. Israel has laws, practices, and procedures that discriminate against non Jews.

 

[MHunterB]

So no one has read Judges?

God let Israel be conquered several times, who is to say he will not let it happen again?

How many times did Israel abandon the God of Abraham and Moses and take up the gods of the Philistines and Canaanites?
Enough times that he gave up on them and let them be scattered to the winds.

If you are using the Bible as your basis, I suggest you go back and look very closely at Deuteronomy: GOD stated that the Covenant of Sinai rests on HIS Faithfulness, not that of the Children of Israel. Thus, He will never 'give up on them' as you suppose.

Of course, if you choose to believe in the supercessionist doctrines some in Christianity embrace, then you could hardly care less about His Covenant with the Jewish People.

Just don't be expecting any Jew to ever agree with you on that.

 

[MHunterB]

"It is interesting to note that when the PLO defined who is a Palestinian, they included native Jews to be citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians are equal under the law without regard to race, religion, sex, etc..

Israel, on the other hand, has no constitutional guarantee of equal rights. Israel has laws, practices, and procedures that discriminate against non Jews. "

What are you calling 'the Palestinian constitution' - is that the PA/Fatah Charter or HAMAS' Charter?

And won't you present the actual language of actual laws in Israel which discriminate against nonJews?

As for 'Palestinian Arabs living within Israel' - about 20% of Israelis are Muslim or Christian Arabs who are indistinguishable from 'Palestinians'. They're already citizens.

If you are talking about people in Jerusalem, they have been offered citizenship - and are taking up that offer in increasing numbers.

If you are talking about people in the WB - I believe that would depend on whether they are in Area A, B, or C as those are under differing control. There is no point I can see for people in the PA-exclusively controlled area becoming Israeli citizens: can you?

 

[P F Tinmore]

"It is interesting to note that when the PLO defined who is a Palestinian, they included native Jews to be citizens.

The Palestinian constitution states that all Palestinians are equal under the law without regard to race, religion, sex, etc..

Israel, on the other hand, has no constitutional guarantee of equal rights. Israel has laws, practices, and procedures that discriminate against non Jews. "

What are you calling 'the Palestinian constitution' - is that the PA/Fatah Charter or HAMAS' Charter?

And won't you present the actual language of actual laws in Israel which discriminate against nonJews?

As for 'Palestinian Arabs living within Israel' - about 20% of Israelis are Muslim or Christian Arabs who are indistinguishable from 'Palestinians'. They're already citizens.

If you are talking about people in Jerusalem, they have been offered citizenship - and are taking up that offer in increasing numbers.

If you are talking about people in the WB - I believe that would depend on whether they are in Area A, B, or C as those are under differing control. There is no point I can see for people in the PA-exclusively controlled area becoming Israeli citizens: can you?

What are you calling 'the Palestinian constitution' - is that the PA/Fatah Charter or HAMAS' Charter?

Neither. The Palestinian constitution was written with the assistance of a US constitutional scholar. It is quite similar to ours but the bill of rights seems to be more comprehensive.

Just one example is that an Israeli Jew can marry a Jew from anywhere and bring the spouse back to live in Israel. If an Israeli Arab marries a Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza or elsewhere that won't happen.

 

[Intense]

No. actually the most peaceful time was the time the land was inhabited by the Israelites, during the rule of King David and King Solomon. which was eons prior to the Ottoman control.

and the land is not being constantly de-stablized for oil. it's being de-stabilized because Jerusalem is a Holy city and they have been fighting over it eversince.

What evidence do you have to believe that? most Historians agree that was a time of many wars and even the Bible says the Jews slaughtered the Canaanites and fought with the Philistines(Palestinians) until Rome took control.

The Peleset or P'lishtim - Philistines - had a confederation of five TINY city-states in the vicinity of Gaza. Their culture has been extinct since Biblical times - Samson was in the pre-Davidic period of Judges. The Philistines were no relation to the current Semitic people known as 'Palestinians'.

We are all related.

 

[P F Tinmore]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?

If these are terrorists, then they’re criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to ‘retaliate’ into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.

But the West Bank and Gaza isn’t recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.

The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response – to attack civilian targets with a First World military force – violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesn’t mitigate the fact that Israel’s policy is illegal.

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation – Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesn’t care; given the current government it’s most likely the latter.

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel ...

I see that a lot but those rockets do not cross any border.

 

[jillian]

fired over 100 missiles into Texas and California, would there be any doubt that we'd retaliate and hard...and that no one would ever question our right to retaliate?

so...what is it that makes anyone question the obligation of the Israeli government to respond to hundreds of Hamas missiles?

Personally, I think when your people are forced to live in bomb shelters by terrorists, you have an obligation to do what you have to in order to protect your population.

Reminder that this is the Clean Debate Zone and was intentionally placed here so as not to be another ranting and insane israel/pal section thread.

And whom exactly would the United States retaliate against?

If these are terrorists, then they’re criminals; their actions not sanctioned by the Mexican government. Since these are criminal acts committed on sovereign Mexican territory, the United States is in no position to ‘retaliate’ into that sovereign territory; this would be the responsibility of Mexican authorities alone.

But the West Bank and Gaza isn’t recognized by the international community as a sovereign state, enjoying the same status as Mexico; and indeed Israel wishes to keep the Palestinian territories in international legal limbo as to cloud the issue concerning the legitimacy of its retaliation policy.

The problem for Israel, of course, is that its standard response – to attack civilian targets with a First World military force – violates international law and international human rights; that terrorist/criminals hide among innocent civilians doesn’t mitigate the fact that Israel’s policy is illegal.

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel to provoke exactly this inappropriate response and subject the Jewish State to international ridicule and condemnation – Israel is either unaware of this fact or doesn’t care; given the current government it’s most likely the latter.

Needless to say Hamas launches rockets into Israel ...

I see that a lot but those rockets do not cross any border.

the point of this thread was to examine the double standard... not to encourage perpetuation of that double standard. and my preference was that it not be yet another trash thread out of the is'/pal forum.

thanks.

 

[MHunterB]

Intense, of course on one level we are every last one of us related.

However, in terms of culture, the Philistine culture died out long before the Palestinian culture arose - which was what I was discussing. So we're not really in disagreement. In fact, the Biblical account of Adam and Eve is used in Judaism to illustrate the fact that all humans are related and made by the same Creator, as well as to illustrate that each single one of us is of value and importance.