CDZ I feel like the President should be held to a higher moral standard

[harmonica]

I don't care what Trump does--I LOVE IT!!!!

Well, "loving it" is one of the two things that're typical of indifference about anything.

I LOVE that also --Go TRUMP!!!

 

[Circe]

I'm not a fan of Trump, but I wholeheartedly disagree with the entire notion that we should hold the President to a higher standard.

That really is nothing but code for, "We want to trash the opposite side and don't want to have to defend return attacks.

If you cannot hold them ALL to a high standard, hold none of them to it.

Agreed, well said.

What does that mean, to hold someone to a high standard? Just to qvetch and criticize and complain if they don't do exactly what we want. Talk the way we want, look the way we want, weigh what we want people to weigh ---

This is all nonsense. People are going to be exactly what they are, and I'm glad of it. You can't control them by "holding X to a high standard." You can't control people at all and shouldn't try. We've had lots of difficult presidents, Teddy Roosevelt, Warren Harding, Jack Kennedy with all the call girls in the White House, Tricky Dick cursing, Obama bowing to every king he met ---

They get to do what they want. They're president, so we don't get to control them and tell them how to behave.

 

[usmbguest5318]

I won’t dusagree with him that most parts of Africa are in terrible conditions right now and that’s why people are heading for the states.

However, I also feel that openly denouncing people who we consider to be allies and who we have given aid to, in a move that has incurred international backlash from just about every country on the planet for the sake of “Calling it like it is”, is extremely short sighted.

We’ve all had points where we’ve had to bite our tongues and collect ourselves. Trump has not done that, and it has instigated nuclear war and infuriated all of our international friends and scared/angered half of the United States.

But at least he looks badass?

We've been biting our tongues for decades now, with little to no benefit. Nice to see someone finally kicking PC to the curb.

Deciding to vet people from the Middle East because some people might be in ISIS is kicking PC away, which is understandable.

Openly insulting people and degrading countries on an international stage, because you were frustrated and wanted to look like a badass is just dumb, imo. What did we gain from calling an entire continent and a few carribean islands a shithole?

He did not do it on an international stage.

A Democrat violated the rules of private meetings for the purpose of political power. It is the Democrat that should be publically flogged for bringing this out in the open.

I'm not a fan of Trump, but I wholeheartedly disagree with the entire notion that we should hold the President to a higher standard.

That really is nothing but code for, "We want to trash the opposite side and don't want to have to defend return attacks.

If you cannot hold them ALL to a high standard, hold none of them to it.

I'm not a fan of Trump, but I wholeheartedly disagree with the entire notion that we should hold the President to a higher standard. That really is nothing but code for, "We want to trash the opposite side and don't want to have to defend return attacks.

It may be so when some folks say it. It's not so when I say it. That phrase means to me that a POTUS is rightly held to the standard whereby he overall exhibits a finer balance -- because excesses of any element of good character can lead to bad character -- of the set of traits that comprise "good character" and that he is indeed and objectively smarter than 98% of the U.S. population.

Elements of Good Character

​

I don't belong to any political party, so that doesn't factor for what I think about a POTUS or his proposals, and I'm more than capable of performing an positive analysis of a POTUS' proposals about which I give a damn whether they be implemented, how, how not, when and when not.

 

[longknife]

I won’t disagree with him that most parts of Africa are in terrible conditions right now and that’s why people are heading for the states.

However, I also feel that openly denouncing people who we consider to be allies and who we have given aid to, in a move that has incurred international backlash from just about every country on the planet for the sake of “Calling it like it is”, is extremely short sighted.

We’ve all had points where we’ve had to bite our tongues and collect ourselves. Trump has not done that, and it has instigated nuclear war and infuriated all of our international friends and scared/angered half of the United States.

But at least he looks badass?

Why?

We didn't elect a saint. We elected someone to clean up the mess left by a bunch of jerks who claim to be of a "higher moral plane" only to be discovered to be sex perverts and sexual harassers.

 

[usmbguest5318]

I won’t disagree with him that most parts of Africa are in terrible conditions right now and that’s why people are heading for the states.

However, I also feel that openly denouncing people who we consider to be allies and who we have given aid to, in a move that has incurred international backlash from just about every country on the planet for the sake of “Calling it like it is”, is extremely short sighted.

We’ve all had points where we’ve had to bite our tongues and collect ourselves. Trump has not done that, and it has instigated nuclear war and infuriated all of our international friends and scared/angered half of the United States.

But at least he looks badass?

Why?

We didn't elect a saint. We elected someone to clean up the mess left by a bunch of jerks who claim to be of a "higher moral plane" only to be discovered to be sex perverts and sexual harassers.

We didn't elect a saint.

...And that is the problem because a "saint," "boy scout," whatever metaphor one cares to use can also "clean up the mess...and they'd do so without being an indolently ignorant and intransigent imbecile in the process.

We elected someone to clean up the mess

 

[Circe]

Elements of Good Character

​

"Princely Manhood," huh?

Well, good, Trump's got that, so I guess we're all right.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Elements of Good Character

​

"Princely Manhood," huh?

Well, good, Trump's got that, so I guess we're all right.

Courage is the most important of all the virtues because without courage, you can't practice any other virtue consistently.
-- Maya Angelou
​

What is "princely manhood?" It's an old term that combines three things: eschewing a specific form of the sin of irrationality entry into one's evaluation of political alternatives, the the will to exercise it, and then actually doing so. In the words of the Kletzings:

"Of two evils choose the less," is an oft repeated saying. And this is applied more frequently in the work of temperance than in any other line. It is a subterfuge and an excuse for defending one's action in voting for high license or any other remedy except prohibition. This motto of choosing between evils is not in accord with the highest morals and the law of Him who is our pattern. According to the moral law, good and evil have no affinity; neither should a man, a real man of nerve and principle, have anything to do with evil. The rather let our motto be, "Of two evils choose neither," for what fellowship has light with darkness, or good with evil. If the forces of sobriety, temperance and prohibition arc ever to succeed, the battle must be fought on this higher and nobler plane. The enemy of strong drink will never be defeated on his own grounds. He chuckles to see the half-hearted, cringing, vote-seeking politician suggesting a choice of evils.

Princely manhood rises above these miasms of danger and death and never chooses between evils. In this battle, as in all others, there is no neutral ground. The choice is between right and wrong, between the home and the saloon, between the purity in thought and life and everything that degrades and debauches. There can be no middle ground. While we may assent to measures that lead to the objective point, yet in no sense can true manhood assent to evil. Burn this truth into the manhood of our nation, and politics will be purified of its apparent mixture of good and evil. The forces of right and truth united against any evil will speedily overthrow it. This is as true of intemperance as of any other evil.​

The value of either of two evils is not new:

• Abstain from every form of evil. (1 Thessalonians 5:22)
• So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin. (James 4:17)
  
• You shall not fall in with the many to do evil, nor shall you bear witness in a lawsuit, siding with the many, so as to pervert justice. (Exodus 23:2)
  
• Do not envy a man of violence and do not choose any of his ways. (Proverbs 3:31)
  
• The beginning of strife is as when one letteth out water: therefore leave off contention, before it be meddled with. He that justifieth the wicked, and he that condemneth the just, even they both are abomination to the LORD. (Proverbs 17:14-15)

Of course, one need not be a theist or have read the Bible to understand that reasoning to choose the lesser of two evils is incogent/unsound. I have elsewhere on USMB written about secular means of understanding the irrationality of that line, so I'll not here reprise it. I'll note instead that as a teen my parents and teachers often impressed upon my peers and me the importance of never yielding what they called our birthright of "patrician bearing," which sounds somewhat similar to "princely manhood" but in fact is a broader notion.

A man is at his youngest when he thinks he is a man, not yet realizing that his actions must show it.
-- Mary Renault, The King Must Die​

Initially, I thought they referred merely to the fact that we were so-called socially upper class and fairly well off financially. I thought it was some sort of highfalutin huffery. I couldn't have been more wrong. It has nothing to do with elitism and everything to do with intrepidity and with manifold and manifest appreciativeness.

At some point I found myself discussing "patrician bearing" with one of the prefects, one whom I liked because he wasn't terribly dogmatic or, as I then called it, "Jesusy." It was he who clarified that "patrician bearing" has nothing at all to do with social or financial status. He went on to explain that the birthright aspect is nothing more than our having been born into a situation that resulted in our being born with able minds that our parents endeavored to ensure were taught to think soundly and behave morally, ethically, and that the patrician bearing itself is nothing more than applying the knowledge and thinking skills we're being taught. He was very clear in stating that patrician bearing is free to all, and not yielding it comes down to whether one embraces (or doesn't) the gifts, the training, the skills, etc. that one's been given and uses it at every opportunity that arises.

Insofar as nobody's perfect at doing that, the extent to which one maintains one's patrician bearing, princely manhood, or more broadly good character, is measured not binarily but rather on a continuum. Accordingly, like many things, it's about the preponderance of one's comportment, not the absoluteness of it. That said, it's not lost on me that modern America's culture has become so mutilated with malefaction that it has moved mien almost to proximate moribundity, yet there remains a moiety -- in public life, Mitt and Mr. Flake, curiously both Mormon....Might Moroni move them so? -- who through it all maintain the mettle, morality and mantle of princely manhood, especially in instances when it'd be easy not to.

Nothing in the world is worth having or worth doing unless it means effort, pain, difficulty… I have never in my life envied a human being who led an easy life. I have envied a great many people who led difficult lives and led them well.
-- Theodore Roosevelt​

So when it comes to people like Trump, people whom one knows merely because of where they come from, though really anyone who holds the U.S. Presidency, there's no excuse for their not being held to the higher standard of which the OP-er writes just as there's no excuse for such individuals not to hold themselves to such a standard. How it came to be that he yielded his patrician bearing, his princely
manhood, I don't know. I know only that he let it happen.

Better to write for yourself and have no public, than to write for the public and have no self.
-- Cyril Connolly, The New Statesman
​

EDIT:

One may find this document informative.

• Counterfeit Gentlemen
  

 

[Circe]

[I thought it was some sort of highfalutin huffery. I couldn't have been more wrong.

Usually one's later thought is better quality than thought at a young age, but I'd say with respect to "princely manhood," you were more right early on.

The woodcut is about mid-19th century, I'd say. Is it Masonry? Elks, Shriners, can't be Illuminati, that was European, Rosicrusan? It looks like a secret society thing.

 

[usmbguest5318]

[I thought it was some sort of highfalutin huffery. I couldn't have been more wrong.

Usually one's later thought is better quality than thought at a young age, but I'd say with respect to "princely manhood," you were more right early on.

The woodcut is about mid-19th century, I'd say. Is it Masonry? Elks, Shriners, can't be Illuminati, that was European, Rosicrusan? It looks like a secret society thing.

Usually one's later thought is better quality than thought at a young age, but I'd say with respect to "princely manhood," you were more right early on.

Having lived, I can assure you I was not.

The woodcut is about mid-19th century, I'd say. Is it Masonry? Elks, Shriners, can't be Illuminati, that was European, Rosicrusan? It looks like a secret society thing.

Whatever....

 

[Circe]

Whatever....

You must know where it's from? I'm asking.

 

[usmbguest5318]

Whatever....

You must know where it's from? I'm asking.

I have no idea from where the image derives other than the inside front cover of the book to which I linked. The whole point of the book is to explain that image. That's why I hyperlinked it. I provided a school years anecdote because the concepts in the book were/are generally taught when one is in school. After one finishes school, it's usually too late to think a person will come to value good/high character and ethics because by adulthood, the hubris of of "I've gotten this far without it" has set in irrevocably.

 

[Circe]

Okay.

 

[monkrules]

We didn't elect a saint. We elected someone to clean up the mess left by a bunch of jerks who claim to be of a "higher moral plane" only to be discovered to be sex perverts and sexual harassers.

Yeah, I'm sure you're including guys like the GOPers in this list, as perverts, too.

Lol...

------------

* Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.
* Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.
* Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a juvenile.
* Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.
* Republican activist Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a minor and sentenced to one month in jail.
* Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges.
* Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.

 

[usmbguest5318]

We didn't elect a saint. We elected someone to clean up the mess left by a bunch of jerks who claim to be of a "higher moral plane" only to be discovered to be sex perverts and sexual harassers.

Yeah, I'm sure you're including guys like the GOPers in this list, as perverts, too.

Lol...

------------

* Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.
* Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.
* Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a juvenile.
* Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.
* Republican activist Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a minor and sentenced to one month in jail.
* Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges.
* Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.

Inasmuch as you were of a mind to list a few, how did former Speaker of the House, Denny Hastert, manage not to make your list? LOL

• Dennis Hastert released from prison but still faces sex-offender treatment
  
  July 2017 -- "Former U.S. House Speaker Dennis Hastert was released this week from a federal prison in Minnesota after serving nearly 13 months for violating banking regulations to cover up the sexual abuse of teenage boys."

 

[Mac1958]

However, I also feel that openly denouncing people....

I voted against Trump, and I'm not a fan.

That said...

He did not "openly" denounce people. This was a private meeting, and anyone who would claim that about a zillion coarse and/or vulgar things have not been said in private White House meetings by both parties over the years would be either lying or willfully ignorant.

I want my President to freely say whatever is rattling around in his or her head during any private White House meeting. Without having to worry if someone is going to sprint to the press to spill the beans for political advantage. Period. I don't care if I voted for them or not. Private means private.
.

 

[usmbguest5318]

However, I also feel that openly denouncing people....

I voted against Trump, and I'm not a fan.

That said...

He did not "openly" denounce people. This was a private meeting, and anyone who would claim that about a zillion coarse and/or vulgar things have not been said in private White House meetings by both parties over the years would be either lying or willfully ignorant.

I want my President to freely say whatever is rattling around in his or her head during any private White House meeting. Without having to worry if someone is going to sprint to the press to spill the beans for political advantage. Period. I don't care if I voted for them or not. Private means private.
.

OT:

I "get" what you're saying, but I don't agree. Remarks made in the course of doing the people's business, to the extent that the content of the remarks is not classified for USIC/national security reasons, has no business being private.

My position is that I don't care that Trump is the vulgar, intemperate, indolent, callous, purblind person he is. I care that the person, any person, having the Office of the President of the U.S. is such a person. For me, one can be a person of such character, but such a person has no business being POTUS, and the American people deserve a better person be their President.​

 

[Wyatt earp]

We didn't elect a saint. We elected someone to clean up the mess left by a bunch of jerks who claim to be of a "higher moral plane" only to be discovered to be sex perverts and sexual harassers.

Yeah, I'm sure you're including guys like the GOPers in this list, as perverts, too.

Lol...

------------

* Republican campaign consultant Tom Shortridge was sentenced to three years probation for taking nude photographs of a 15-year old girl.
* Republican racist pedophile and United States Senator Strom Thurmond had sex with a 15-year old black girl which produced a child.
* Republican pastor Mike Hintz, whom George W. Bush commended during the 2004 presidential campaign, surrendered to police after admitting to a sexual affair with a juvenile.
* Republican legislator Peter Dibble pleaded no contest to having an inappropriate relationship with a 13-year-old girl.
* Republican activist Lawrence E. King, Jr. organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican lobbyist Craig J. Spence organized child sex parties at the White House during the 1980s.
* Republican Congressman Donald "Buz" Lukens was found guilty of having sex with a minor and sentenced to one month in jail.
* Republican fundraiser Richard A. Delgaudio was found guilty of child porn charges.
* Republican activist Mark A. Grethen convicted on six counts of sex crimes involving children.

You can't forget Bush SR..he married his mother ( that's who I always thought it was in my youth)

Btw your list is short compared to the democrats sexual perversions

 

[Mac1958]

However, I also feel that openly denouncing people....

I voted against Trump, and I'm not a fan.

That said...

He did not "openly" denounce people. This was a private meeting, and anyone who would claim that about a zillion coarse and/or vulgar things have not been said in private White House meetings by both parties over the years would be either lying or willfully ignorant.

I want my President to freely say whatever is rattling around in his or her head during any private White House meeting. Without having to worry if someone is going to sprint to the press to spill the beans for political advantage. Period. I don't care if I voted for them or not. Private means private.
.

OT:

I "get" what you're saying, but I don't agree. Remarks made in the course of doing the people's business, to the extent that the content of the remarks is not classified for USIC/national security reasons, has no business being private.

My position is that I don't care that Trump is the vulgar, intemperate, indolent, callous, purblind person he is. I care that the person, any person, having the Office of the President of the U.S. is such a person. For me, one can be a person of such character, but such a person has no business being POTUS, and the American people deserve a better person be their President.​

Well, that's another issue, and it's why I voted against him.

But I'm perfectly comfortable with private meetings that will not be reported, where the sausage is made. It can be ugly and vulgar and sloppy, whatever it takes.

And I have less respect for the person who would go running to the press than I would for the person who said something "offensive".
.

 

[usmbguest5318]

However, I also feel that openly denouncing people....

I voted against Trump, and I'm not a fan.

That said...

He did not "openly" denounce people. This was a private meeting, and anyone who would claim that about a zillion coarse and/or vulgar things have not been said in private White House meetings by both parties over the years would be either lying or willfully ignorant.

I want my President to freely say whatever is rattling around in his or her head during any private White House meeting. Without having to worry if someone is going to sprint to the press to spill the beans for political advantage. Period. I don't care if I voted for them or not. Private means private.
.

OT:

I "get" what you're saying, but I don't agree. Remarks made in the course of doing the people's business, to the extent that the content of the remarks is not classified for USIC/national security reasons, has no business being private.

My position is that I don't care that Trump is the vulgar, intemperate, indolent, callous, purblind person he is. I care that the person, any person, having the Office of the President of the U.S. is such a person. For me, one can be a person of such character, but such a person has no business being POTUS, and the American people deserve a better person be their President.​

Well, that's another issue, and it's why I voted against him.

But I'm perfectly comfortable with private meetings that will not be reported, where the sausage is made. It can be ugly and vulgar and sloppy, whatever it takes.

And I have less respect for the person who would go running to the press than I would for the person who said something "offensive".
.

This line of discussion goes directly to a point I made recently, albeit in a different thread: Observations from the 55 minutes of Trump's televised DACA/immigration meeting:

One take away that has nothing to do with the subject matter of the meeting and everything to do with the governance process is that all policy deliberations the POTUS and members of Congress have, among their own staffs and colleagues as well as jointly, should be televised/recorded and, after redacting whatever national security content be in them, released within 24 hours of the conversations.

Well, that's another issue, and it's why I voted against him.

Ditto...

Aspects of the flexibility Trump showed are what many people, myself included, from 2013 to 2015 when his candidacy was but a frequently enough heard rumor, had hoped Trump the candidate and POTUS would be.

The fact is that I think most folks were willing and optimistic about the notion of a Trump presidency, but Trump, being the man he is, blew it, much as he's blown myriad other opportunities (great and small) that came his way.

 

[Indeependent]

I won’t disagree with him that most parts of Africa are in terrible conditions right now and that’s why people are heading for the states.

However, I also feel that openly denouncing people who we consider to be allies and who we have given aid to, in a move that has incurred international backlash from just about every country on the planet for the sake of “Calling it like it is”, is extremely short sighted.

We’ve all had points where we’ve had to bite our tongues and collect ourselves. Trump has not done that, and it has instigated nuclear war and infuriated all of our international friends and scared/angered half of the United States.

But at least he looks badass?

How can he??????considering he has never been able to Crawl Out Of The GUTTER Himself...you have NO HOPE THERE

He became president what did you or Hillary ever become?

Someone with a Green Card that doesn’t know English.