I don't understand. Enlighten me.

[Tehon]

i am surprised after the kindness total strangers have shown you...that you revert back to this .....why dont you bitch about the millions trump used for his july 4 th parade or the millions given to trump and his people or clinton and theirs..instead you go on about helping refugees....the poorest of the poor....

your heart did not grow at all when helped....i am simply amazed at how heartless you are...even when shown such kindness you still dont have the heart to show it to others....

They're not "refugees". A refugee has been FORCED out of their home by devastation. They're immigrants, and illegal at that. They are choosing not to go about it the legal way--they are breaking into the system. Did Gracie do that, since you made it personal? Did she take people's stuff? Or did they give it to her freely?

As far as "heartless", she mentioned our OWN veterans, needy children, homeless. These illegals busted in and people like you apparently want to care for them before our very own. That's not fair.

I was under the impression that they are seeking asylum. Which means they are seeking protection because it is unsafe to live in their home country. If granted asylum they then become a refugee.

The word is " if " and Asylum is a loophole that illegals have learned to use to bypass our system because we can not turn them away.

90% seeking Asylum are not worthy of the status and use it so they can come into the country and never appear for their court date...

Now let me ask you and many on the left if those seeking asylum do not show for their court date and are out of status how should the U.S. Government treat them?

For me it is simple if they are caught they are deported and will be denied reentry for ten year minimum but let say you, and what is your true opinion?

I have no objections to returning people who have been denied asylum or who do not show up for their hearing.

 

[SweetSue92]

So..enlighten me if you can.

It's easy.

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.


John Kenneth Galbraith​

I just adopted that for my siggie. Perfect.

It's an inane quote. But liberals love it, because they cannot wrap their heads around the fact that there is no Utopia here, nor shall there ever be.

Also, it's very funny given how liberals are miserly little givers compared to conservatives. Always harping about giving, not really doing it.

 

[Tehon]

For just one thing, just one. A child of an illegal immigrant in an American school does not use the resources of an American child. No, it's worse than that--she uses MORE. English as a Second Language. All the remedial courses because they're almost certainly behind grade level. Free and reduced lunches. So, if it costs, on average, $10,000 to educate a citizen child yearly, you can bet for sure it costs at least two grand MORE to educate that illegal child. And understand that their parents are paying in NOTHING toward those costs.

That is unjust. Their parents stole it. And we cannot afford it. I hold no animosity against the children, but we must put an end to this. It is fundamentally unfair to the children and families we have HERE, now.

Just imagine how they felt about you destabilizing their country. It is the reason they have fled it.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure

Everything bad in the world--all of it, everything, is because America.

We're blamed because we THINK we're the center of the world, also...we're the center of the world, cause we made all the problems.

Go sell that crap canoe down some other river

So that's it? We can't have an honest discussion about American influence in Latin America? There is a lot to talk about. No wonder you want to draw the line. I think you know all too well how the situation developed.

You don't know much of anything apparently. You didn't even apparently know that illegals were bused all over America and let go. So if you don't know that, I'm very skeptical about what you "know" about America's influence in Latin America. But I'm sure it's a bunch of utter swill

The poster argument is they are not illegals but Asylum seekers when bussed which the poster is correct.

What the poster forget is that the Asylum rule is a loophole that many migrants are using so they can enter legally and then disappear into the communities and never going to their court appearance.

So it is a way for the left to play with words and confuse the low IQ voter...

Play with words? I call it having a truthful discussion. I do not automatically assume the IQ of the other participants. That reveals itself, naturally.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

i am surprised after the kindness total strangers have shown you...that you revert back to this .....why dont you bitch about the millions trump used for his july 4 th parade or the millions given to trump and his people or clinton and theirs..instead you go on about helping refugees....the poorest of the poor....

your heart did not grow at all when helped....i am simply amazed at how heartless you are...even when shown such kindness you still dont have the heart to show it to others....

They're not "refugees". A refugee has been FORCED out of their home by devastation. They're immigrants, and illegal at that. They are choosing not to go about it the legal way--they are breaking into the system. Did Gracie do that, since you made it personal? Did she take people's stuff? Or did they give it to her freely?

As far as "heartless", she mentioned our OWN veterans, needy children, homeless. These illegals busted in and people like you apparently want to care for them before our very own. That's not fair.

I was under the impression that they are seeking asylum. Which means they are seeking protection because it is unsafe to live in their home country. If granted asylum they then become a refugee.

The word is " if " and Asylum is a loophole that illegals have learned to use to bypass our system because we can not turn them away.

90% seeking Asylum are not worthy of the status and use it so they can come into the country and never appear for their court date...

Now let me ask you and many on the left if those seeking asylum do not show for their court date and are out of status how should the U.S. Government treat them?

For me it is simple if they are caught they are deported and will be denied reentry for ten year minimum but let say you, and what is your true opinion?

I have no objections to returning people who have been denied asylum or who do not show up for their hearing.

You don't but politicians like Cortez will object.

The fact is Asylum by these immigrants is just a loophole into the country and you know this.

Personally I believe Asylum seekers should be held in border towns like El Paso until their court hearing.

I also believe the U.S. government should also work toward speeding up the process but alas what I believe goes against the Progressive movement to fracture this country further...

 

[SweetSue92]

i am surprised after the kindness total strangers have shown you...that you revert back to this .....why dont you bitch about the millions trump used for his july 4 th parade or the millions given to trump and his people or clinton and theirs..instead you go on about helping refugees....the poorest of the poor....

your heart did not grow at all when helped....i am simply amazed at how heartless you are...even when shown such kindness you still dont have the heart to show it to others....

They're not "refugees". A refugee has been FORCED out of their home by devastation. They're immigrants, and illegal at that. They are choosing not to go about it the legal way--they are breaking into the system. Did Gracie do that, since you made it personal? Did she take people's stuff? Or did they give it to her freely?

As far as "heartless", she mentioned our OWN veterans, needy children, homeless. These illegals busted in and people like you apparently want to care for them before our very own. That's not fair.

I was under the impression that they are seeking asylum. Which means they are seeking protection because it is unsafe to live in their home country. If granted asylum they then become a refugee.

The word is " if " and Asylum is a loophole that illegals have learned to use to bypass our system because we can not turn them away.

90% seeking Asylum are not worthy of the status and use it so they can come into the country and never appear for their court date...

Now let me ask you and many on the left if those seeking asylum do not show for their court date and are out of status how should the U.S. Government treat them?

For me it is simple if they are caught they are deported and will be denied reentry for ten year minimum but let say you, and what is your true opinion?

I have no objections to returning people who have been denied asylum or who do not show up for their hearing.

You don't but politicians like Cortez will object.

The fact is Asylum by these immigrants is just a loophole into the country and you know this.

Personally I believe Asylum seekers should be held in border towns like El Paso until their court hearing.

I also believe the U.S. government should also work toward speeding up the process but alas what I believe goes against the Progressive movement to fracture this country further...

We really need a big, beautiful wall. Keep them out in the first place.

Watch the Lefties melt down now

 

[Dale Smith]

What a miserable, ugly OP.
You can't possibly be serious. Benches to stop homeless link? What a jacked up fraud you are.

Get bent, ya stupid sack of shit.

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

Just imagine how they felt about you destabilizing their country. It is the reason they have fled it.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure

Everything bad in the world--all of it, everything, is because America.

We're blamed because we THINK we're the center of the world, also...we're the center of the world, cause we made all the problems.

Go sell that crap canoe down some other river

So that's it? We can't have an honest discussion about American influence in Latin America? There is a lot to talk about. No wonder you want to draw the line. I think you know all too well how the situation developed.

You don't know much of anything apparently. You didn't even apparently know that illegals were bused all over America and let go. So if you don't know that, I'm very skeptical about what you "know" about America's influence in Latin America. But I'm sure it's a bunch of utter swill

The poster argument is they are not illegals but Asylum seekers when bussed which the poster is correct.

What the poster forget is that the Asylum rule is a loophole that many migrants are using so they can enter legally and then disappear into the communities and never going to their court appearance.

So it is a way for the left to play with words and confuse the low IQ voter...

Play with words? I call it having a truthful discussion. I do not automatically assume the IQ of the other participants. That reveals itself, naturally.

You are playing with words and fully know Asylum is a loophole into this country where most seekers do not show for their court hearing which make them illegal afterwards.

You have no issue with it and know ICE is limited in it resources and can not gather all the overstayed and out of status illegals in this country.

Then if the woman has a child here then the baby is reason why she can not be deported.

So many tricks and you and your kind attempt to play the word game but most Asylum seekers end up illegal.

 

[Tehon]

So that's it? We can't have an honest discussion about American influence in Latin America? There is a lot to talk about. No wonder you want to draw the line. I think you know all too well how the situation developed.

So much for the Monroe Doctrine and history in general.

Church ladies don't do national responsibility.

I think every American assumes some measure of guilt for our government's actions. Those that profess ignorance, more so.

 

[Dale Smith]

what the greatest country in the world cant care for all? yes it can if people had the right priorities...you do realize vets are not taken care of.....young kids in foster system are not taken care of.....rape victims who test kits arent tested..the list goes on and on...does not justify making the list longer now does it...

So? How many refugee families are YOU taking in and sponsoring??

 

[Bruce_T_Laney]

They're not "refugees". A refugee has been FORCED out of their home by devastation. They're immigrants, and illegal at that. They are choosing not to go about it the legal way--they are breaking into the system. Did Gracie do that, since you made it personal? Did she take people's stuff? Or did they give it to her freely?

As far as "heartless", she mentioned our OWN veterans, needy children, homeless. These illegals busted in and people like you apparently want to care for them before our very own. That's not fair.

I was under the impression that they are seeking asylum. Which means they are seeking protection because it is unsafe to live in their home country. If granted asylum they then become a refugee.

The word is " if " and Asylum is a loophole that illegals have learned to use to bypass our system because we can not turn them away.

90% seeking Asylum are not worthy of the status and use it so they can come into the country and never appear for their court date...

Now let me ask you and many on the left if those seeking asylum do not show for their court date and are out of status how should the U.S. Government treat them?

For me it is simple if they are caught they are deported and will be denied reentry for ten year minimum but let say you, and what is your true opinion?

I have no objections to returning people who have been denied asylum or who do not show up for their hearing.

You don't but politicians like Cortez will object.

The fact is Asylum by these immigrants is just a loophole into the country and you know this.

Personally I believe Asylum seekers should be held in border towns like El Paso until their court hearing.

I also believe the U.S. government should also work toward speeding up the process but alas what I believe goes against the Progressive movement to fracture this country further...

We really need a big, beautiful wall. Keep them out in the first place.

Watch the Lefties melt down now

I am 100% against the wall and Asylum seekers will not be kept out as the laws stands.

Also many times it has been proven the Cartel will dig under and pay off Federal, State and Local authorities.

Finally, when a Democrat win again which will happen the wall will be defunded and money would have been wasted.

Fixing the Immigration process is a must, guest worker program need revamping and anchor baby and asylum laws need to be changed to have any affect on slowing illegal immigration...

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I was reading the Pence visited a detention center. Now many are screaming he turned his back on those people. They were yelling they have been detained 40 days; are not allowed showers; bad food; no drinking water etc etc etc.

What I am confused about is....has any of those screaming about those peoples current living conditions realized yet that those people put themselves in there by entering our country illegally? And if they were set loose as they want, where are they supposed to go? Join the civilians of the USA in tent cities on the streets? And if that happened, how many now screaming about them being locked up with scream if housing is being built for them but they have their NOT IN MY BACK YARD signs all ready to carry in front of their city halls? Have ANY of those screaming visited the living conditions of the homeless on the streets of LA, SF, Insert City Name Here ________________? If not, why not? If so, where is the indignant hysterics for the veterans, children, mothers without fathers, seniors having to live in such conditions? And, what about babies born alive only to be murdered once out of the womb? They are screaming about seeing small children in those detention centers, asking "who is watching that poor baby sitting there on that cot alone?" yet ignore the baby crying at its birth only to die shortly after at the very hands that delivered it...or the child sitting on the curb because it has no home? Some are screaming about people in the detention centers being forced to sleep on concrete. Our veterans are sleeping on concrete too....on a city street or under an overpass. Old people. Young people. Handicapped people. Children. Concrete. And businesses make damn sure they don't sleep near their front doors so benches are made to force them to find other places to sleep. Not in their parks. Oh no. Not in their neighborhoods. Oh no. Yet....people who came here are to be pitied? Those folks put themselves in that position by breaking our laws. Why have they not figured that out yet?

Are those screaming willing and able to house, feed, clothe some of those folks? No. Not them. Someone else has to do it. Who is that someone else? And what citizen has to be shoved back to the end of the line to make room for them?

None of it makes sense. So..enlighten me if you can.

Below is anti homeless benches for right here in the USA. All those in the detention camps are HOMELESS. Hello????

benches to stop homeless - Google Search

leftist can't say much about homeless Americans because it shines a light on their failures.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I was under the impression that they are seeking asylum. Which means they are seeking protection because it is unsafe to live in their home country. If granted asylum they then become a refugee.

The word is " if " and Asylum is a loophole that illegals have learned to use to bypass our system because we can not turn them away.

90% seeking Asylum are not worthy of the status and use it so they can come into the country and never appear for their court date...

Now let me ask you and many on the left if those seeking asylum do not show for their court date and are out of status how should the U.S. Government treat them?

For me it is simple if they are caught they are deported and will be denied reentry for ten year minimum but let say you, and what is your true opinion?

I have no objections to returning people who have been denied asylum or who do not show up for their hearing.

You don't but politicians like Cortez will object.

The fact is Asylum by these immigrants is just a loophole into the country and you know this.

Personally I believe Asylum seekers should be held in border towns like El Paso until their court hearing.

I also believe the U.S. government should also work toward speeding up the process but alas what I believe goes against the Progressive movement to fracture this country further...

We really need a big, beautiful wall. Keep them out in the first place.

Watch the Lefties melt down now

I am 100% against the wall and Asylum seekers will not be kept out as the laws stands.

Also many times it has been proven the Cartel will dig under and pay off Federal, State and Local authorities.

Finally, when a Democrat win again which will happen the wall will be defunded and money would have been wasted.

Fixing the Immigration process is a must, guest worker program need revamping and anchor baby and asylum laws need to be changed to have any affect on slowing illegal immigration...

All those who oppose the wall should accept all illegals into their home and be held accountable for any laws those illegals violate.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

i am surprised after the kindness total strangers have shown you...that you revert back to this .....why dont you bitch about the millions trump used for his july 4 th parade or the millions given to trump and his people or clinton and theirs..instead you go on about helping refugees....the poorest of the poor....

your heart did not grow at all when helped....i am simply amazed at how heartless you are...even when shown such kindness you still dont have the heart to show it to others....

take some of those illegals in your home be held accountable for their actions.

 

[Tehon]

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure

Everything bad in the world--all of it, everything, is because America.

We're blamed because we THINK we're the center of the world, also...we're the center of the world, cause we made all the problems.

Go sell that crap canoe down some other river

So that's it? We can't have an honest discussion about American influence in Latin America? There is a lot to talk about. No wonder you want to draw the line. I think you know all too well how the situation developed.

You don't know much of anything apparently. You didn't even apparently know that illegals were bused all over America and let go. So if you don't know that, I'm very skeptical about what you "know" about America's influence in Latin America. But I'm sure it's a bunch of utter swill

The poster argument is they are not illegals but Asylum seekers when bussed which the poster is correct.

What the poster forget is that the Asylum rule is a loophole that many migrants are using so they can enter legally and then disappear into the communities and never going to their court appearance.

So it is a way for the left to play with words and confuse the low IQ voter...

Play with words? I call it having a truthful discussion. I do not automatically assume the IQ of the other participants. That reveals itself, naturally.

You are playing with words and fully know Asylum is a loophole into this country where most seekers do not show for their court hearing which make them illegal afterwards.

You have no issue with it and know ICE is limited in it resources and can not gather all the overstayed and out of status illegals in this country.

Then if the woman has a child here then the baby is reason why she can not be deported.

So many tricks and you and your kind attempt to play the word game but most Asylum seekers end up illegal.

I am not playing with words. This thread is about detention of asylum seekers. What I stated, and which you acknowledged as being correct, needed to be clarified. At which point the dam broke and we are off on a tangent.

I offered to discuss closing the loophole but that was met with resistance and blanket denial. So we live with the consequences of our actions.

 

[OldLady]

I was reading the Pence visited a detention center. Now many are screaming he turned his back on those people. They were yelling they have been detained 40 days; are not allowed showers; bad food; no drinking water etc etc etc.

What I am confused about is....has any of those screaming about those peoples current living conditions realized yet that those people put themselves in there by entering our country illegally? And if they were set loose as they want, where are they supposed to go? Join the civilians of the USA in tent cities on the streets? And if that happened, how many now screaming about them being locked up with scream if housing is being built for them but they have their NOT IN MY BACK YARD signs all ready to carry in front of their city halls? Have ANY of those screaming visited the living conditions of the homeless on the streets of LA, SF, Insert City Name Here ________________? If not, why not? If so, where is the indignant hysterics for the veterans, children, mothers without fathers, seniors having to live in such conditions? And, what about babies born alive only to be murdered once out of the womb? They are screaming about seeing small children in those detention centers, asking "who is watching that poor baby sitting there on that cot alone?" yet ignore the baby crying at its birth only to die shortly after at the very hands that delivered it...or the child sitting on the curb because it has no home? Some are screaming about people in the detention centers being forced to sleep on concrete. Our veterans are sleeping on concrete too....on a city street or under an overpass. Old people. Young people. Handicapped people. Children. Concrete. And businesses make damn sure they don't sleep near their front doors so benches are made to force them to find other places to sleep. Not in their parks. Oh no. Not in their neighborhoods. Oh no. Yet....people who came here are to be pitied? Those folks put themselves in that position by breaking our laws. Why have they not figured that out yet?

Are those screaming willing and able to house, feed, clothe some of those folks? No. Not them. Someone else has to do it. Who is that someone else? And what citizen has to be shoved back to the end of the line to make room for them?

None of it makes sense. So..enlighten me if you can.

Below is anti homeless benches for right here in the USA. All those in the detention camps are HOMELESS. Hello????

benches to stop homeless - Google Search

Asylum seeking is not against the law. You're welcome.

It is not but not showing for your court date should have your Asylum request denied and immediate removal from this country...

Probably it is. BUT first they have to find them.

And there is the problem right there Old Lady!

You have no issue with the loophole and the fact the migrant then become illegal by failing to show up for their court appearance, and for me when caught they should be deported and not allowed back for ten years.

Follow the rules but the left hate the rules in election years...

You have no issue with the loophole
Here you go again, a-hole, when I've said a hundred times here that if they are caught over the border illegally they should not be considered for an asylum claim.

 

[bigrebnc1775]

I was reading the Pence visited a detention center. Now many are screaming he turned his back on those people. They were yelling they have been detained 40 days; are not allowed showers; bad food; no drinking water etc etc etc.

What I am confused about is....has any of those screaming about those peoples current living conditions realized yet that those people put themselves in there by entering our country illegally? And if they were set loose as they want, where are they supposed to go? Join the civilians of the USA in tent cities on the streets? And if that happened, how many now screaming about them being locked up with scream if housing is being built for them but they have their NOT IN MY BACK YARD signs all ready to carry in front of their city halls? Have ANY of those screaming visited the living conditions of the homeless on the streets of LA, SF, Insert City Name Here ________________? If not, why not? If so, where is the indignant hysterics for the veterans, children, mothers without fathers, seniors having to live in such conditions? And, what about babies born alive only to be murdered once out of the womb? They are screaming about seeing small children in those detention centers, asking "who is watching that poor baby sitting there on that cot alone?" yet ignore the baby crying at its birth only to die shortly after at the very hands that delivered it...or the child sitting on the curb because it has no home? Some are screaming about people in the detention centers being forced to sleep on concrete. Our veterans are sleeping on concrete too....on a city street or under an overpass. Old people. Young people. Handicapped people. Children. Concrete. And businesses make damn sure they don't sleep near their front doors so benches are made to force them to find other places to sleep. Not in their parks. Oh no. Not in their neighborhoods. Oh no. Yet....people who came here are to be pitied? Those folks put themselves in that position by breaking our laws. Why have they not figured that out yet?

Are those screaming willing and able to house, feed, clothe some of those folks? No. Not them. Someone else has to do it. Who is that someone else? And what citizen has to be shoved back to the end of the line to make room for them?

None of it makes sense. So..enlighten me if you can.

Below is anti homeless benches for right here in the USA. All those in the detention camps are HOMELESS. Hello????

benches to stop homeless - Google Search

Asylum seeking is not against the law. You're welcome.

It is not but not showing for your court date should have your Asylum request denied and immediate removal from this country...

Probably it is. BUT first they have to find them.

And there is the problem right there Old Lady!

You have no issue with the loophole and the fact the migrant then become illegal by failing to show up for their court appearance, and for me when caught they should be deported and not allowed back for ten years.

Follow the rules but the left hate the rules in election years...

You have no issue with the loophole
Here you go again, a-hole, when I've said a hundred times here that if they are caught over the border illegally they should not be considered for an asylum claim.

I believe as the rule stands asylum seekers must claim asylum at the first point of entry they come too. You can't claim asylum in one country when the last country you left offered you asylum.

 

[OldLady]

Asylum seeking is not against the law. You're welcome.

It is not but not showing for your court date should have your Asylum request denied and immediate removal from this country...

Probably it is. BUT first they have to find them.

And there is the problem right there Old Lady!

You have no issue with the loophole and the fact the migrant then become illegal by failing to show up for their court appearance, and for me when caught they should be deported and not allowed back for ten years.

Follow the rules but the left hate the rules in election years...

You have no issue with the loophole
Here you go again, a-hole, when I've said a hundred times here that if they are caught over the border illegally they should not be considered for an asylum claim.

I believe as the rule stands asylum seekers must claim asylum at the first point of entry they come too. You can't claim asylum in one country when the last country you left offered you asylum.

Unless they have a good reason not to. Mexico gave out so many special Visas to these folks coming across their southern border that they had to shut it down. Mexico is hoppin' to it, now, though, that they have a US friendly President who ran against corruption. He'll probably get murdered. I hope not, but he probably will.

 

[OldLady]

So..enlighten me if you can.

It's easy.

The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness.


John Kenneth Galbraith​

I just adopted that for my siggie. Perfect.

It's an inane quote. But liberals love it, because they cannot wrap their heads around the fact that there is no Utopia here, nor shall there ever be.

Also, it's very funny given how liberals are miserly little givers compared to conservatives. Always harping about giving, not really doing it.

I applaud personal generosity. Studies have shown conservatives donate $100 to $160 more per year, and it is from donations to their churches. Conservatives are bigger church goers.
Republicans give more to charity – but not because they oppose income redistribution

I love what this recent survey says about us ALL.
Does partisanship influence charitable giving? | SurveyMonkey Apply

 

[cnm]

I applaud personal generosity. Studies have shown conservatives donate $100 to $160 more per year, and it is from donations to their churches. Conservatives are bigger church goers.

For example, child care payments to churches are classified as donations.

 

[Picaro]

They break it.

They are detained BRIEFLY at the border.

Then they are set free in America.

End of story.

Then why all the hand wringing about illegals?

For just one thing, just one. A child of an illegal immigrant in an American school does not use the resources of an American child. No, it's worse than that--she uses MORE. English as a Second Language. All the remedial courses because they're almost certainly behind grade level. Free and reduced lunches. So, if it costs, on average, $10,000 to educate a citizen child yearly, you can bet for sure it costs at least two grand MORE to educate that illegal child. And understand that their parents are paying in NOTHING toward those costs.

That is unjust. Their parents stole it. And we cannot afford it. I hold no animosity against the children, but we must put an end to this. It is fundamentally unfair to the children and families we have HERE, now.

Just imagine how they felt about you destabilizing their country. It is the reason they have fled it.

Suuuuuuuuuuuuuuuure

Everything bad in the world--all of it, everything, is because America.

We're blamed because we THINK we're the center of the world, also...we're the center of the world, cause we made all the problems.

Go sell that crap canoe down some other river

So that's it? We can't have an honest discussion about American influence in Latin America? There is a lot to talk about. No wonder you want to draw the line. I think you know all too well how the situation developed.

Go ahead and bring up all these imaginary 'crimes' in Latin America you can glean from your back issues of Pravda. And no, you aren't in the least interested in any 'honest discussion' about American influences in Latin America, so why pretend you do???