How many of you are Pro-Death Penalty but Against Abortion?

[xsited1]

And why would Ravi care. Ravi never met a big ol social gubmint she didn't like.

True. I'm sure she's all over this like Oprah on a baked ham. But, of course, it's not 'big government at its finest'. Not even close. The Judicial Branch is separate and she knows this. Just more trolling.

The Judicial branch metes out punishment that is lawful. They don't make the laws themselves.

Maybe you are trying to make some other point and flailing?

Assuming for a moment that you are not trolling (which is a BIG assumption), you just contradicted yourself and made yet another case that this is not big government. Are you sure you're not related to TruthMatters?

 

[Ravi]

No system is perfect, but you must err on the side of the innocent NON-CRIMINAL populace, not the criminal.

I am quoting this separately because I didn't see it the first time.

To err on the side of the innocent, non-criminal populace would mean forbidding the death penalty. Any one executed person that was not guilty is a travesty of justice.

Highly assumptive and incorrect.

If you had a serial killer that you were unable to keep locked up and the populace safe from, you have a responsibility to put that motherfucker down and fast.

Why is it the serial killer has more rights than his victims? We euthenize dogs who bite once. Hell, we have groups in society that preach the right to kill themselves! They shoot horses, don't they?

You need to seriously check your scruples. They're not lining up well with the actual logistical application of them.

He doesn't have more rights than his victim. There's no reason a serial killer can't be kept incarcerated.

I am more concerned with the people that aren't guilty but are put to death. IMO, we should always err on the side of innocents and that means not killing people.

I also do not think the government has the right to decide who lives or dies.

You obviously do.

You have a right to your opinion but I believe it is a bad opinion.

 

[Lonestar_logic]

No system is perfect, but you must err on the side of the innocent NON-CRIMINAL populace, not the criminal.

I am quoting this separately because I didn't see it the first time.

To err on the side of the innocent, non-criminal populace would mean forbidding the death penalty. Any one executed person that was not guilty is a travesty of justice.

Can you name one person that was executed that was proven to be innocent?


The most significant study conducted to evaluate the evidence of the "innocent executed" is the Bedau-Radelet Study ("Miscarriages of Justice in Potentially Capital Cases," 40, 1 Stanford Law Review, 11/87). The study concluded that 23 innocent persons had been executed since 1900. However, the study's methodology was so flawed that at least 12 of those cases had no evidence of innocence and substantial evidence of guilt. Bedau & Radelet, both opponents, "consistently presented incomplete and misleading accounts of the evidence." (Markman, Stephen J. & Cassell, Paul G., "Protecting the Innocent: A Response to the Bedau-Radelet Study" 41, 1 Stanford Law Review, 11/88). The remaining 11 cases represent 0.14% of the 7,800 executions which have taken place since 1900. And, there is, in fact, no proof that those 11 executed were innocent. In addition, the "innocents executed" group was extracted from a Bedau & Radelet imagined pool of 350 persons who were, supposedly, wrongly convicted of capital or "potentially" capital crimes. Not only were they at least 50% in error with their 23 "innocents executed" claim, but 211 of those 350 cases, or 60%, were not sentenced to death. Bedau and Radelet already knew that plea bargains, the juries, the evidence, the prosecutors, judicial review and/or the legal statutes had put these crimes in the "no capital punishment" category. Indeed, their claims of innocence, regarding the remaining 139 of those 350 cases, should be suspect, given this study’s poor level of accuracy. Calling their work misleading hardly does this "academic" study justice. Had a high school student presented such a report, where 50-60% of the material was either false or misleading, a grade of F would be a likely result.

Death Penalty Paper

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Aren't they both killing a human?

I'd like your thoughts on this, it's something I've always wondered how people think about the two.

In MY opinion.

A fetus is not a "life" until it can be a stand alone life outside a host body. Removing it is not taking a life.

I am all for KILLING criminals. I have no problem with taking their lives.

I consider fetal cells human cells but criminals animals...

You failed biology didn't you?

 

[Zoom-boing]

I voted yes because both abortion and dp are the killing of a human being.

Great difference in killing an innocent, unborn life and in killing (as punishment) someone who committed a horrible crime.

 

[spectrumc01]

Aren't they both killing a human?

I'd like your thoughts on this, it's something I've always wondered how people think about the two.

I'm for the death penalty, and would like to see it expand to our political leaders who break their public trust. I would like to see the burden of proof become more concrete before putting them to death. Every death penalty case should be reviewed by an outside court.

I'm also for abortion, as I believe it is no one elses business what I do in my personal life. It is not the governments business because I pay for the act myself, it is not he churches business as I am not a member of their church, and it is not my neighbors business as the descision does not affect him in any way. The abortion issue is filled with a myrad of conflicting views and hypocracy on the pro life side. You would think that the general public would be in favor of personal freedom, less government intrusion in our personal lives, and a woman's choice to do with her body what she wants.

The question about abortion that I ask but never gets answered is this...If abortion was to be outlawed today, what would keep the rich from going out of country to get their abortion? Thus leaving the poor as the ones being forced to raise unwanted children on the publics dime for eighteen years, as they cannot afford to go outside the country.

 

[American Horse]

Aren't they both killing a human?

I'd like your thoughts on this, it's something I've always wondered how people think about the two.

I'm against abortions for the convenience of either the mother or the father, bur for life saving reasons. Abortion and administering the death penalty are not moral equivalents. Almost any death penalty is for the capital offense of murder, taking another's life; in some states only when there are multiple offenses by the same murder.

Sadly this argument is raised for the purpose of saying that the two are morally equivalent, and that argument falls flat to anyone who can determine the difference between the innocence of an unborn child and guilt for murderer.

 

[PLYMCO_PILGRIM]

I voted yes because both abortion and dp are the killing of a human being.

Great difference in killing an innocent, unborn life and in killing (as punishment) someone who committed a horrible crime.

I also voted yes but with a caveat that i would accept both in very specific circumstances.

 

[Big Fitz]

I am quoting this separately because I didn't see it the first time.

To err on the side of the innocent, non-criminal populace would mean forbidding the death penalty. Any one executed person that was not guilty is a travesty of justice.

Highly assumptive and incorrect.

If you had a serial killer that you were unable to keep locked up and the populace safe from, you have a responsibility to put that motherfucker down and fast.

Why is it the serial killer has more rights than his victims? We euthenize dogs who bite once. Hell, we have groups in society that preach the right to kill themselves! They shoot horses, don't they?

You need to seriously check your scruples. They're not lining up well with the actual logistical application of them.

He doesn't have more rights than his victim. There's no reason a serial killer can't be kept incarcerated.

I am more concerned with the people that aren't guilty but are put to death. IMO, we should always err on the side of innocents and that means not killing people.

I also do not think the government has the right to decide who lives or dies.

You obviously do.

You have a right to your opinion but I believe it is a bad opinion.

There's no reason a serial killer can't be kept incarcerated.

So... how many escapes and endangerments to fellow inmates and prison authorities is acceptable? There were 3 escapes from Alcatraz. and is one escape too much? If not, how many are acceptable? You assume they cannot escape, but yet, there have been. Some of them by creampuff judges and governors (Mike Huckabee ring a bell? Guy went out and killed again).

Is this a reasonable risk? It's okay to risk future deaths of innocents, but not one guilty criminal's life? If you want to protect the rights of small percentages, here's other small percentages you should inflate to the same caliber of consideration.

I also do not think the government has the right to decide who lives or dies.

Really? But you support both Obamacare and Abortion. Do you support assisted suicide and euthanasia too? If government, whom we as citizens, have granted the power of life and death in the defense of our liberties and freedoms, doesn't have the right to kill, why should a pregnant woman have that right?

are you seeing the gaping holes in your morality yet?

You obviously do.

Damn right. Because I have a correct understanding of what the constitution is, the purpose of government and morality. I am not ashamed for one instant about it. But, that's what happens when you're into moral relativism. Stuff like this scares you.

You have a right to your opinion but I believe it is a bad opinion.

Two bits of homily advice:

1. Opinions are like assholes. Everyone's got one and they all stink.

2. I could agree with you, but then we'd both be wrong.

 

[Midnight Marauder]

I detect an opportunistic flaw in your logic.

AKA, straw man argument.

 

[kwc57]

How is the death penalty 'big government at its finest'?

And why would Ravi care. Ravi never met a big ol social gubmint she didn't like.

Why do you feel the need to say things about me that aren't true?

I don't.

 

[Ravi]

Fitz:

How many people on death row have ever escaped? I don't know the answer to that but I would imagine it is a very, very small number. That is a more acceptable risk to me than the risk of an innocent person being executed.

Really? But you support both Obamacare and Abortion. Do you support assisted suicide and euthanasia too?

I don't actually support Obama care. I do not think people should be forced to get insurance. I would rather see something like the National Flood Insurance program applied to insurance.

I think abortion is something only the pregnant woman should be able to decide upon. Not the government.

I also think people should be allowed to decide if they wish to kill themselves rather than suffer a certain death from some disease. Again, not a decision the government should make.

 

[Nosmo King]

How can the death penalty be murder?

When an innocent gets executed.

How often does that happen? If it is more than 1% of all executions ever done, I'd be shocked.

So when it comes to justice, life and death, you're willing to overlook a statistical flaw even if it means the loss of an innocent life?

 

[Big Fitz]

How many people on death row have ever escaped? I don't know the answer to that but I would imagine it is a very, very small number. That is a more acceptable risk to me than the risk of an innocent person being executed.

In this we disagree. I'd rather put down a mad dog than hope someday maybe they'd 'snap out of it' or let them die by rotting in a cell at my expense and risk if God forbid the rarity happened and they got out. Which is the more humane punishment and death? A quick execution or letting them rot in a cage essentially.

I think abortion is something only the pregnant woman should be able to decide upon. Not the government.

And since the government derives it's powers from our rights, the woman who has the power of life and death over her innocent baby cannot bequeath to the government the right to kill for her defense in war or against criminals who would wish to take her liberty and freedom away?

I don't actually support Obama care. I do not think people should be forced to get insurance. I would rather see something like the National Flood Insurance program applied to insurance.

Yikes! You do realize that Obamacare IS National Flood Insurance for health insurance? And NFI is the reason no private company will offer Flood Insurance anymore because they can't compete with such a broken system. Better to let the market sort it out and those who choose to build foolishly shoulder the risk. If the states boardering the Red River valley (MN & ND) just banned rebuilding in a floodplain, they'd solve most of the problems there, or force anyone who wanted to to buy private insurance. Then no tax money is wasted and private insurance thrives.

But I digress.

 

[daveman]

How can the death penalty be murder?

When an innocent gets executed.

Kinda like abortion, huh? Who is more innocent than the unborn?

 

[Two Thumbs]

How can the death penalty be murder?

When an innocent gets executed.

Kinda like abortion, huh? Who is more innocent than the unborn?

There's no proof and scant evidence an innocent person has ever been executed.

Only a fool would think the baby wasn't.

 

[JBeukema]

Abortion is a killing of convenience.

As is the death penalty. What arguments do we hear? Not wanting to have to spend the money and put forth the effort to maintain prisons?

And what happens when we kill an innocent man?
[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wntitiiLotk]YouTube - ‪P&T Bullshit!-The Death Penalty Part 1‬‏[/ame]

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oKSV9F_-VdU]YouTube - ‪P&T Bullshit!-The Death Penalty Part 2‬‏[/ame]

 

[Grace]

Fitz:

How many people on death row have ever escaped? I don't know the answer to that but I would imagine it is a very, very small number. That is a more acceptable risk to me than the risk of an innocent person being executed.

Really? But you support both Obamacare and Abortion. Do you support assisted suicide and euthanasia too?

I don't actually support Obama care. I do not think people should be forced to get insurance. I would rather see something like the National Flood Insurance program applied to insurance.

I think abortion is something only the pregnant woman should be able to decide upon. Not the government.

I also think people should be allowed to decide if they wish to kill themselves rather than suffer a certain death from some disease. Again, not a decision the government should make.

Ravi for President!

 

[JBeukema]

Aren't they both killing a human?

I'd like your thoughts on this, it's something I've always wondered how people think about the two.

A question that needs to be asked.

If the death penalty is for a committed crime, what crime did a baby commit before it was born?

Rape. Have you never read any of the abortinites' rants in this board? Don't ya know pregnancy is rape?

 

[JBeukema]

Aren't they both killing a human?

I'd like your thoughts on this, it's something I've always wondered how people think about the two.

In MY opinion.

There is no room for opinion on scientific reality.

A fetus is not a "life"

Sorry, Earth is not flat. That's not up for debate unless you can prove modern science wrong.