How do you propose that we reduce the number of abortions in our country?

[Anguille]

Why not abstinence- it's free, readily available, and guaranteed to work each and every time.

That would not reduce the need for abortion in rape cases.

 

[Anguille]

How do you propose that we reduce the number of abortions in our country?

You just have to join islam, they stone you to death for sex outside of marriage. They don't kill the fetus, they kill the mother.
Plus, they don't even have the medical tools to do an abortion in most of the places. Not even any coat hangers either.

I see you know nothing about Islam.

 

[Anguille]

Teach the Gospel with power and authority from God to the point where no one can disbelieve. Obviously, it hasnt happened yet. But I know from personal experience that actually living the Gospel can keep you from needing abortion.

So then why do so many good Christians believe in abortion?

 

[Anguille]

Why does anyone care what other people do? Your life so sad that you have to worry about what others do?

Yeah! Why should any of us care if some other person is drugging his dates to sell them into prostitution overseas?

Why should any of us care if our neighbor is kidnapping kids off the street to rape them in the privacy of his own basement, and then cooking them for dinner?

1 because he is KIDNAPPING
someone else's kids

2 because he is raping them

3 because he is killing them and eating them for dinner

in each one of your scenarios, there is a born person who is being harmed by another person with no attachment to them.

SOME people believe that an unborn child in its earliest stage does not have the same value as a child that has been born and taken its first breath.

Others believe that from the second of conception, the unborn child has the equal worth under the law as the born child.

Others believe that this takes place upon pregnancy, when the fertilized egg is attached to the uterine wall and begins rapidly multiplying because many fertilized eggs end up being flushed and not attaching to the uterus.

And others believe the fetus has no worth until it is born.

Some others believe the fertilized egg as no worth until the woman makes it through the first month of pregnancy, because many spontaneous natural abortions occur at that time when the body rejects most embryos that are damaged...

UNLESS everyone is forced to get on to the same page with this, there will never be any kind of peace regarding this issue because there are so many different views for so many different, individual reasons.

I think it's fine if people have different ideas of when abortion is acceptable to them .... and for them. People should restrict themselves to making a choice for themselves and quit trying to force their own standards on others. Especially those phonies one who claim they are the chosen representatives of other people's fetuses.

 

[Anguille]

sky,

maybe this will help some day?

Birth control for men in one injection

Chinese scientists succeed with testosterone jab trial on 1,000 volunteers

By Jerome Taylor

Tuesday, 5 May 2009

Scientists believe they are one step closer to developing an effective male contraceptive jab after successfully carrying out the largest feasibility study to date.

Researchers at the National Research for Family Planning in Beijing injected 1,000 healthy, fertile male patients with a testosterone-based jab over a two-year period and found only 1 per cent went on to father a child. The men were all aged between 20 and 45 and had fathered at least one child in the two years before the testing began. They were also all involved with healthy female partners between the ages of 18 and 38 who had no reproductive problems of their own.

The trial was the largest effectiveness study of a testosterone-based male contraceptive ever undertaken. At the end of the two-year period only one in 100 men had fathered a child. No contraception is 100 per cent effective – 1 to 2 per cent of women still become pregnant while they are on the Pill – but the jab's success rate puts it on a par with the effectiveness of the female Pill or injections.

Dr Yi-Qun Gu, one of the researchers involved in the testing, said: "For couples who cannot or prefer not to use only female-oriented contraception, options have been limited to vasectomy, condom and withdrawal. Our study shows a male hormonal contraceptive regimen may be a potential, novel and workable alternative."

When the contraceptive Pill was introduced in the 1960s it revolutionised sex lives but also placed the onus of reproductive responsibility on women. Scientists have been looking to try to find a suitable alternative for men but have struggled to control male hormones with the same level of efficiency. Previous attempts to develop an effective and convenient male contraceptive have encountered problems over reliability and side-effects, such as mood swings and a lowered sex drive.

Like the female Pill, most testing for a male pill or injection has centred on using hormones to stop the production of key elements of the reproductive process. For the testing in China, a country which has invested heavily in reproductive technology because of its overpopulation problems, the men were given 500mg of testosterone undecanoate (TU) in tea seed oil. The injections resulted in a reduction of two regulatory brain chemicals, follicle-stimulating hormone (FSH) and luteinising hormone (LH) which in turn disrupted sperm production.

The scientists claim that there were none of the usual side-effects and say the process is reversible. Six months after coming off the injections, the men's sperm count had returned to healthy levels. Dr Gu said further testing would be needed to check how safe testosterone injections are.

Family planning campaigners have welcomed the news and said they hoped an injection would result in men taking a greater level of responsibility over contraception.

Birth control for men in one injection - Science, News - The Independent

That is great news, Care. Especially about there being no side effects. Women have had to put up with side effects from the pill and the patch long enough.

 

[Liability]

Yeah! Why should any of us care if some other person is drugging his dates to sell them into prostitution overseas?

Why should any of us care if our neighbor is kidnapping kids off the street to rape them in the privacy of his own basement, and then cooking them for dinner?

1 because he is KIDNAPPING
someone else's kids

2 because he is raping them

3 because he is killing them and eating them for dinner

in each one of your scenarios, there is a born person who is being harmed by another person with no attachment to them.

SOME people believe that an unborn child in its earliest stage does not have the same value as a child that has been born and taken its first breath.

Others believe that from the second of conception, the unborn child has the equal worth under the law as the born child.

Others believe that this takes place upon pregnancy, when the fertilized egg is attached to the uterine wall and begins rapidly multiplying because many fertilized eggs end up being flushed and not attaching to the uterus.

And others believe the fetus has no worth until it is born.

Some others believe the fertilized egg as no worth until the woman makes it through the first month of pregnancy, because many spontaneous natural abortions occur at that time when the body rejects most embryos that are damaged...

UNLESS everyone is forced to get on to the same page with this, there will never be any kind of peace regarding this issue because there are so many different views for so many different, individual reasons.

I think it's fine if people have different ideas of when abortion is acceptable to them .... and for them. People should restrict themselves to making a choice for themselves and quit trying to force their own standards on others. Especially those phonies one who claim they are the chosen representatives of other people's fetuses.

Do you also think it's "fine" if people have different ideas of when it is acceptable to kidnap children off the street and rape them and cook them and eat them -- in the privacy of their own basements, naturally?

Most of us may find that kind of conduct unacceptable. But what gives US the right to tell a neighbor that he is not permitted to do engage in such behavior? Who said we have the right to force OUR standards on other people?

 

[AllieBaba]

Why not abstinence- it's free, readily available, and guaranteed to work each and every time.

That would not reduce the need for abortion in rape cases.

Yeah, both of them. It's such a huge issue in this country and obviously creates the need to allow abortions to one and all, regardless of the reasons for them. Don't want to miss those two women who were raped and somehow got pregnant..or more specifically, the .00000001 of those two women who actually want an abortion when it happens.

 

[Anguille]

Why not abstinence- it's free, readily available, and guaranteed to work each and every time.

That would not reduce the need for abortion in rape cases.

Yeah, both of them. It's such a huge issue in this country and obviously creates the need to allow abortions to one and all, regardless of the reasons for them. Don't want to miss those two women who were raped and somehow got pregnant..or more specifically, the .00000001 of those two women who actually want an abortion when it happens.

If you were one of those 2 women, it would matter to you.

I doubt your stats, but in any case, it wouldn't matter if it was only one.

 

[Anguille]

Do you also think it's "fine" if people have different ideas of when it is acceptable to kidnap children off the street and rape them and cook them and eat them -- in the privacy of their own basements, naturally?

Most of us may find that kind of conduct unacceptable. But what gives US the right to tell a neighbor that he is not permitted to do engage in such behavior? Who said we have the right to force OUR standards on other people?

Try to have a logical argument, if you want a response from me.

Your tactics are shopworn and useless.

 

[Liability]

Do you also think it's "fine" if people have different ideas of when it is acceptable to kidnap children off the street and rape them and cook them and eat them -- in the privacy of their own basements, naturally?

Most of us may find that kind of conduct unacceptable. But what gives US the right to tell a neighbor that he is not permitted to do engage in such behavior? Who said we have the right to force OUR standards on other people?

Try to have a logical argument, if you want a response from me.

Your tactics are shopworn and useless.

You should strive to refrain from being so dishonest and disingenuous. Your response was a demonstration of pure cowardice on your part. It's understandable, of course. Your argument is trite and ill-considered. You cannot defend it in logic and somewhere inside you appear to recognize it.

The logic is entirely on my side.

The fear of logic is all yours.

The "tactic" of exposing the shoddiness of your (alleged) "thinking" may be "worn" from the use of such a logical refutation over hundreds of years, but it is far from "useless." It is quite useful. This is why you run away from it.

Had you any honest ability to engage in debate (and it's quite clear that you don't) you would expose the alleged fault in my logic rather than just make your present empty claim.

Here: I'll even help you out. You could START, if you had any integrity, by attempting to make the case that there is some principled difference between minding our own business in one scenario and NOT "minding our own business" in the other scenario. THEN, of course, you'd have to explain the principle that justifies your claim that there is a meaningful difference.

I'd say "good luck," but I have no actual expectation that you have the ability, willingness, intelligence, guts, talent or comprehension of logic to manage that set of tasks. You have already shown yourself to be just a coward in such matters. I'm sure that's how things will stand.

 

[Care4all]

Teach the Gospel with power and authority from God to the point where no one can disbelieve. Obviously, it hasnt happened yet. But I know from personal experience that actually living the Gospel can keep you from needing abortion.

So then why do so many good Christians believe in abortion?

I don't think any of them "believe" in abortion as if it is something good anguille....not Christians and not nonchristians....it is a medical procedure to terminate their pregnancy, there is nothing fun about it and there is nothing to BELIEVE in....

It seems to me it is a free choice situation, a fork in the road, of which they will answer to or deal with the consequences of, be it physical or mental (with a multitude of "what ifs..."), the rest of their lives and if a Christian, face to face with Christ.

And I am NOT saying they will burn on Judgment day when face to face with Christ....I am saying it is between Christ and the person who had the abortion and judgment of such will be fair and just by Christ....he knows their heart and their fears and their sorrow and their cowardice and their concerns etc that they might have experienced.

The girl who had an abortion is no different than any of the people who have committed adultery, not honored their parents or coveted someone elses sports car, house or wife....

sin is sin...the adulterer equal to the murderer in the ten commandments, the covetous equal to the thief....

As a Christian, I believe Christ died for those sins...judgment day is a soul searching day, face to face with Christ, on what one believes, and on how one lived their lives.

 

[Anguille]

Teach the Gospel with power and authority from God to the point where no one can disbelieve. Obviously, it hasnt happened yet. But I know from personal experience that actually living the Gospel can keep you from needing abortion.

So then why do so many good Christians believe in abortion?

I don't think any of them "believe" in abortion as if it is something good anguille....not Christians and not nonchristians....it is a medical procedure to terminate their pregnancy, there is nothing fun about it and there is nothing to BELIEVE in....

It seems to me it is a free choice situation, a fork in the road, of which they will answer to or deal with the consequences of, be it physical or mental (with a multitude of "what ifs..."), the rest of their lives and if a Christian, face to face with Christ.

And I am NOT saying they will burn on Judgment day when face to face with Christ....I am saying it is between Christ and the person who had the abortion and judgment of such will be fair and just by Christ....he knows their heart and their fears and their sorrow and their cowardice and their concerns etc that they might have experienced.

The girl who had an abortion is no different than any of the people who have committed adultery, not honored their parents or coveted someone elses sports car, house or wife....

sin is sin...the adulterer equal to the murderer in the ten commandments, the covetous equal to the thief....

As a Christian, I believe Christ died for those sins...judgment day is a soul searching day, face to face with Christ, on what one believes, and on how one lived their lives.

I do know Christians who believe in abortion as a good thing. They believe their god wants us to use all at our disposal to make this a better world. They see nothing in the Bible that contradicts this point of view.

I don't believe in a god but I also think abortion is a good thing. It has made life so much better for many women and men. It has even saved lives. I don't think it's wise medically speaking to use it as your only form of birth control, but I'm very glad it is available as a last resort. In that sense it is a good thing.

I feel sorry for anyone having an abortion who worries about having to answer to their god later. I see nothing sinful or shameful about it. People bringing too many children into this crowded world are the ones, IMO, who should be ashamed.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Teach the Gospel with power and authority from God to the point where no one can disbelieve. Obviously, it hasnt happened yet. But I know from personal experience that actually living the Gospel can keep you from needing abortion.

So then why do so many good Christians believe in abortion?

I don't think any of them "believe" in abortion as if it is something good anguille....not Christians and not nonchristians....it is a medical procedure to terminate their pregnancy, there is nothing fun about it and there is nothing to BELIEVE in....

It seems to me it is a free choice situation, a fork in the road, of which they will answer to or deal with the consequences of, be it physical or mental (with a multitude of "what ifs..."), the rest of their lives and if a Christian, face to face with Christ.

And I am NOT saying they will burn on Judgment day when face to face with Christ....I am saying it is between Christ and the person who had the abortion and judgment of such will be fair and just by Christ....he knows their heart and their fears and their sorrow and their cowardice and their concerns etc that they might have experienced.

The girl who had an abortion is no different than any of the people who have committed adultery, not honored their parents or coveted someone elses sports car, house or wife....

sin is sin...the adulterer equal to the murderer in the ten commandments, the covetous equal to the thief....

As a Christian, I believe Christ died for those sins...judgment day is a soul searching day, face to face with Christ, on what one believes, and on how one lived their lives.

I'm a Buddhist, and I believe in karma. If you take a life you create negative karma. Rinpoche approached questions about abortion in this way. I specifically remember him talking to a woman who was asking him whether she should abort her unborn child. Rinpoche advised her against an abortion, as he knew she would suffer greatly for the negative act. Rinpoche told her she would have a happier life if she had the child.

She had an abortion.

No one in our community would cast her out for her decision, we would just all feel sad knowing that she had created the causes of unhappiness for herself due to her action.

At the same time, we cannot live in this world without killing other sentient beings--even vegetarians share in some negative karma for all the insects that are killed in the harvesting of vegies and grains.

The whole point is motivation and intention. Buddhism discourages abortion, but it also discourages imposing rigid moral absolutes.


If the woman who has the abortion regrets the decision, and takes no joy in it, that helps her with the heavy karmic burden she creates by terminating the life of her child--at whatever stage of development the fetus is in.

I think the least harmful kind of abortion must be the morning after pill because it keeps the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. I don't think the consciousness of a fertilized egg is the same as a four month fetus, do you?

I mean if someone insists on having an abortion, at least, don't do it in ignorance kidding yourself that this isn't human life being terminated. JMO

 

[Care4all]

So then why do so many good Christians believe in abortion?

I don't think any of them "believe" in abortion as if it is something good anguille....not Christians and not nonchristians....it is a medical procedure to terminate their pregnancy, there is nothing fun about it and there is nothing to BELIEVE in....

It seems to me it is a free choice situation, a fork in the road, of which they will answer to or deal with the consequences of, be it physical or mental (with a multitude of "what ifs..."), the rest of their lives and if a Christian, face to face with Christ.

And I am NOT saying they will burn on Judgment day when face to face with Christ....I am saying it is between Christ and the person who had the abortion and judgment of such will be fair and just by Christ....he knows their heart and their fears and their sorrow and their cowardice and their concerns etc that they might have experienced.

The girl who had an abortion is no different than any of the people who have committed adultery, not honored their parents or coveted someone elses sports car, house or wife....

sin is sin...the adulterer equal to the murderer in the ten commandments, the covetous equal to the thief....

As a Christian, I believe Christ died for those sins...judgment day is a soul searching day, face to face with Christ, on what one believes, and on how one lived their lives.

I'm a Buddhist, and I believe in karma. If you take a life you create negative karma. Rinpoche approached questions about abortion in this way. I specifically remember him talking to a woman who was asking him whether she should abort her unborn child. Rinpoche advised her against an abortion, as he knew she would suffer greatly for the negative act. Rinpoche told her she would have a happier life if she had the child.

She had an abortion.

No one in our community would cast her out for her decision, we would just all feel sad knowing that she had created the causes of unhappiness for herself due to her action.

At the same time, we cannot live in this world without killing other sentient beings--even vegetarians share in some negative karma for all the insects that are killed in the harvesting of vegies and grains.

The whole point is motivation and intention.

If the woman who has the abortion regrets the decision, and takes no joy in it, that helps her with the heavy karmic burden she creates by terminating the life of her child--at whatever stage of development the fetus is in.

I think the least harmful kind of abortion must be the morning after pill because it keeps the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. I don't think the consciousness of a fertilized egg is the same as a four month fetus, do you?

I mean if someone insists on having an abortion, at least, don't do it in ignorance kidding yourself that this isn't human life being terminated. JMO

Interesting SkyDancer!

It seems similar, in a way, to what I believe...at least the Earthly part...

the old testament for me, was all about God's warning of "karma"....

You reap, what you sow here on earth.

For every action there is a reaction....

When God is telling us NOT to sin, it isn't necessarily to honor HIM....it is a warning to us about reaping what we sow or "karma" imo....what will bring you peace on earth and what will bring you misery.... he is not wishing the misery on us from our sins, he is warning us how miserable we could be or about the consequences of sin, here on earth for the most part.

You steal, you will pay for such....in jail, through guilt, through silence, through fear of getting caught one day....just a cloud over your head...

Adultery...the same cloud...

Coveting, wanting what others have and being envious or experience greed due to it....makes one carry that cloud as well...

killing....the same thing, but a bigger cloud perhaps

etc etc etc....

 

[Anguille]

I don't think any of them "believe" in abortion as if it is something good anguille....not Christians and not nonchristians....it is a medical procedure to terminate their pregnancy, there is nothing fun about it and there is nothing to BELIEVE in....

It seems to me it is a free choice situation, a fork in the road, of which they will answer to or deal with the consequences of, be it physical or mental (with a multitude of "what ifs..."), the rest of their lives and if a Christian, face to face with Christ.

And I am NOT saying they will burn on Judgment day when face to face with Christ....I am saying it is between Christ and the person who had the abortion and judgment of such will be fair and just by Christ....he knows their heart and their fears and their sorrow and their cowardice and their concerns etc that they might have experienced.

The girl who had an abortion is no different than any of the people who have committed adultery, not honored their parents or coveted someone elses sports car, house or wife....

sin is sin...the adulterer equal to the murderer in the ten commandments, the covetous equal to the thief....

As a Christian, I believe Christ died for those sins...judgment day is a soul searching day, face to face with Christ, on what one believes, and on how one lived their lives.

I'm a Buddhist, and I believe in karma. If you take a life you create negative karma. Rinpoche approached questions about abortion in this way. I specifically remember him talking to a woman who was asking him whether she should abort her unborn child. Rinpoche advised her against an abortion, as he knew she would suffer greatly for the negative act. Rinpoche told her she would have a happier life if she had the child.

She had an abortion.

No one in our community would cast her out for her decision, we would just all feel sad knowing that she had created the causes of unhappiness for herself due to her action.

At the same time, we cannot live in this world without killing other sentient beings--even vegetarians share in some negative karma for all the insects that are killed in the harvesting of vegies and grains.

The whole point is motivation and intention.

If the woman who has the abortion regrets the decision, and takes no joy in it, that helps her with the heavy karmic burden she creates by terminating the life of her child--at whatever stage of development the fetus is in.

I think the least harmful kind of abortion must be the morning after pill because it keeps the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. I don't think the consciousness of a fertilized egg is the same as a four month fetus, do you?

I mean if someone insists on having an abortion, at least, don't do it in ignorance kidding yourself that this isn't human life being terminated. JMO

Interesting SkyDancer!

It seems similar, in a way, to what I believe...at least the Earthly part...

the old testament for me, was all about God's warning of "karma"....

You reap, what you sow here on earth.

For every action there is a reaction....

When God is telling us NOT to sin, it isn't necessarily to honor HIM....it is a warning to us about reaping what we sow or "karma" imo....what will bring you peace on earth and what will bring you misery.... he is not wishing the misery on us from our sins, he is warning us how miserable we could be or about the consequences of sin, here on earth for the most part.

You steal, you will pay for such....in jail, through guilt, through silence, through fear of getting caught one day....just a cloud over your head...

Adultery...the same cloud...

Coveting, wanting what others have and being envious or experience greed due to it....makes one carry that cloud as well...

killing....the same thing, but a bigger cloud perhaps

etc etc etc....

I don't believe in karma but it does seem to me that having children irresponsibly and/or having too many could catch up to you in the end. So even if you don't care what effect your actions have on the rest of the world, you should at least realize what they could have on you.

 

[Sky Dancer]

Karma is cause and effect--it's not sin. There is no negative judgment toward another. Thoughts, words and deeds have consequences. There is t the acknowledgement of what leads to suffering and what leads to happiness.

Many of us were raised by parents who were ambivalent about parenting. At least we have life---even if we suffered by how our parents abandoned us or raised us.

That's the difference with abortion, there is no working relationship between parent and child when the parent kills the child. That's it. The parent who kills their own child creates a karmic debt or burden toward that being, and they will meet again and again. Likely, the next life the child kills the parent.

 

[Care4all]

I'm a Buddhist, and I believe in karma. If you take a life you create negative karma. Rinpoche approached questions about abortion in this way. I specifically remember him talking to a woman who was asking him whether she should abort her unborn child. Rinpoche advised her against an abortion, as he knew she would suffer greatly for the negative act. Rinpoche told her she would have a happier life if she had the child.

She had an abortion.

No one in our community would cast her out for her decision, we would just all feel sad knowing that she had created the causes of unhappiness for herself due to her action.

At the same time, we cannot live in this world without killing other sentient beings--even vegetarians share in some negative karma for all the insects that are killed in the harvesting of vegies and grains.

The whole point is motivation and intention.

If the woman who has the abortion regrets the decision, and takes no joy in it, that helps her with the heavy karmic burden she creates by terminating the life of her child--at whatever stage of development the fetus is in.

I think the least harmful kind of abortion must be the morning after pill because it keeps the fertilized egg from implanting in the uterus. I don't think the consciousness of a fertilized egg is the same as a four month fetus, do you?

I mean if someone insists on having an abortion, at least, don't do it in ignorance kidding yourself that this isn't human life being terminated. JMO

Interesting SkyDancer!

It seems similar, in a way, to what I believe...at least the Earthly part...

the old testament for me, was all about God's warning of "karma"....

You reap, what you sow here on earth.

For every action there is a reaction....

When God is telling us NOT to sin, it isn't necessarily to honor HIM....it is a warning to us about reaping what we sow or "karma" imo....what will bring you peace on earth and what will bring you misery.... he is not wishing the misery on us from our sins, he is warning us how miserable we could be or about the consequences of sin, here on earth for the most part.

You steal, you will pay for such....in jail, through guilt, through silence, through fear of getting caught one day....just a cloud over your head...

Adultery...the same cloud...

Coveting, wanting what others have and being envious or experience greed due to it....makes one carry that cloud as well...

killing....the same thing, but a bigger cloud perhaps

etc etc etc....

I don't believe in karma but it does seem to me that having children irresponsibly and/or having too many could catch up to you in the end. So even if you don't care what effect your actions have on the rest of the world, you should at least realize what they could have on you.

I don't think for one second that God...all entities of Him, does not understand human emotions and our concerns...I don't think He is "cold as Ice" as some on this board may give the impression of...I think He is a Merciful God, loving God, a just God who knows what each individual girl having an abortion went through in making their decisions....

in other words, there will be no single group of women that had abortions gathered together and thrown in to the lake of fire on judgment day...as some people may come off implying or actually believe themselves?

I honestly don't know of any case, not one, in maybe the 10 instances of where i know women involved in getting an abortion, where any of them killed their offspring with MALICE....all of them were torn on what to do, were fearful, scared, concerned, sad etc about the position they were in....

No one was rubbing their hands together with glee, shouting goody goody goody, I get to have an abortion today, as the right tries to make these girls out to be....

BUT THE TRUTH of the matter is, that what Sky and I were talking about...karma or "reaping what you sow", is what life is made up of...here on earth....we make choices, bad ones can come back to haunt us, even if we do not think they are a bad choice at the time....God gives us warnings of such, and maybe Buddha did as well....that I am unfamiliar with...but there are consequences to our actions and wrong or immoral or unethical or even just simply unwise or not thoroughly thought out decisions and actions that do bring other reactions down the road to such decisions/actions that could be more painful that one would think....

care

 

[Anguille]

Interesting SkyDancer!

It seems similar, in a way, to what I believe...at least the Earthly part...

the old testament for me, was all about God's warning of "karma"....

You reap, what you sow here on earth.

For every action there is a reaction....

When God is telling us NOT to sin, it isn't necessarily to honor HIM....it is a warning to us about reaping what we sow or "karma" imo....what will bring you peace on earth and what will bring you misery.... he is not wishing the misery on us from our sins, he is warning us how miserable we could be or about the consequences of sin, here on earth for the most part.

You steal, you will pay for such....in jail, through guilt, through silence, through fear of getting caught one day....just a cloud over your head...

Adultery...the same cloud...

Coveting, wanting what others have and being envious or experience greed due to it....makes one carry that cloud as well...

killing....the same thing, but a bigger cloud perhaps

etc etc etc....

I don't believe in karma but it does seem to me that having children irresponsibly and/or having too many could catch up to you in the end. So even if you don't care what effect your actions have on the rest of the world, you should at least realize what they could have on you.

I don't think for one second that God...all entities of Him, does not understand human emotions and our concerns...I don't think He is "cold as Ice" as some on this board may give the impression of...I think He is a Merciful God, loving God, a just God who knows what each individual girl having an abortion went through in making their decisions....

in other words, there will be no single group of women that had abortions gathered together and thrown in to the lake of fire on judgment day...as some people may come off implying or actually believe themselves?

I honestly don't know of any case, not one, in maybe the 10 instances of where i know women involved in getting an abortion, where any of them killed their offspring with MALICE....all of them were torn on what to do, were fearful, scared, concerned, sad etc about the position they were in....

No one was rubbing their hands together with glee, shouting goody goody goody, I get to have an abortion today, as the right tries to make these girls out to be....

BUT THE TRUTH of the matter is, that what Sky and I were talking about...karma or "reaping what you sow", is what life is made up of...here on earth....we make choices, bad ones can come back to haunt us, even if we do not think they are a bad choice at the time....God gives us warnings of such, and maybe Buddha did as well....that I am unfamiliar with...but there are consequences to our actions and wrong or immoral or unethical or even just simply unwise or not thoroughly thought out decisions and actions that do bring other reactions down the road to such decisions/actions that could be more painful that one would think....

care

I know a few people I was close to who have had abortions. Likewise, none were rubbing their hands with glee. One was raised Catholic and felt uneasy about it but had no hesitation about doing it. I don't know her any more but she never expressed any regret or showed any signs of depression in the 5 years I knew her afterwords. The others were atheists like me and their immediate reaction was relief to have been able have it done. Both had had trouble finding a doctor wiling to do it. Another was preparing to have an abortion when she miscarried.

On the other hand, I was friends for a while with a woman who had wanted an abortion but was talked out of it by her mother and a priest. They convinced her to give her baby up for adoption. She was 17 at the time. When I knew her she was in her late thirties and when she told me how horrible she felt saying goodbye to her baby I nearly cried. She told me that ever since then she was haunted by the idea that the child had not been cared for and may have been abused. It was a closed adoption so she had no idea who took the baby. Whenever she read about some child in the news paper being abused by it's parents she wondered if it was an adopted child. She felt such guilt at having abandoned her baby that she felt she did not deserve to have any other children. Her relationship with her mother deteriorated. She says her biggest regret in life was not having insisted on having the abortion.

 

[Care4all]

There is no getting around a surprise or unwanted pregnancy....ones life changes forever, with or without an abortion...

and it is my understanding that post abortion depression that some girls go through, begins from 5 to 10 years afterwards...anguille....

 

[Anguille]

There is no getting around a surprise or unwanted pregnancy....ones life changes forever, with or without an abortion...

and it is my understanding that post abortion depression that some girls go through, begins from 5 to 10 years afterwards...anguille....

It's been longer than that for my two friends. One went on to have children at the time she and her husband had planned to have them. And I have to say, I'm very doubly glad she had that abortion because if she hadn't one or both of the two children she had would not have been born - they wanted no more than two. My other friend has not had children because both she and her husband have never wanted to be parents.

Both are doing just fine psychologically. I finally had to distance myself from the woman who had put her baby up for adoption. Mostly because she was an emotional drain.