How come patriotism isn't a sin?

[Shogun]

Only in your world would patriotism be defined as "pride". You err in that false definition and I suspect you have chosen to redefine the word "patriotism" for your own agenda. But it is still a false definition.

Patriotism is defined in dictionaries as "devoted love, support and defense of one's country, national loyalty" and sometimes defined as merely "love of one's country". So where is the word "pride" in that definition? Just because you want to insist it includes pride, doesn't mean everyone else now must agree to your re-written definition. I am a patriot -I love, support and defend my nation, my national loyalty lies with this country and no other.

Pride is defined as "an inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit or superiority". Must be why the word "pride" isn't included as part of the definition of "patriotism". They are not one and the same thing.

Everyone will be held accountable for their own personal sins, not the sins of others -and for many people that may or may not include some "flag-waving fundies" -pride may well be among those sins. But they are not held accountable for a love and support of their own nation because that is no sin at all.

standing ovation from an atheist.

 

[Dr Grump]

Only in your world would patriotism be defined as "pride". You err in that false definition and I suspect you have chosen to redefine the word "patriotism" for your own agenda. But it is still a false definition.

Patriotism is defined in dictionaries as "devoted love, support and defense of one's country, national loyalty" and sometimes defined as merely "love of one's country". So where is the word "pride" in that definition? Just because you want to insist it includes pride, doesn't mean everyone else now must agree to your re-written definition. I am a patriot -I love, support and defend my nation, my national loyalty lies with this country and no other.

Pride is defined as "an inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit or superiority". Must be why the word "pride" isn't included as part of the definition of "patriotism". They are not one and the same thing.

Everyone will be held accountable for their own personal sins, not the sins of others -and for many people that may or may not include some "flag-waving fundies" -pride may well be among those sins. But they are not held accountable for a love and support of their own nation because that is no sin at all.

I think the problem is, a lot of right wingers have hijacked the term and call any non-conservatives unpatriotic...like only they have rights to use and define the term. On some message boards I put the word patriot in quotes when I think it is being misused in such a way.

 

[Ravi]

For the deductively challenged (that shall go unnamed):

Patriotism is love for one's country. One's country is an extention of one's self. Love for oneself is pride. While they're not synonymous, patriotism can very reasonably be categorized as a specific form of pride.

So you don't buy that bit about two becoming one when they marry? If not, I see the problem you are having with this. If you buy it though, one can certainly make the case that a spouse is an extension of one's self.

 

[frazzledgear]

Fundies don't believe in the concept of sin.

duh

Really? And where did you come up with that I wonder? Certainly not from talking to any Christian or reading the Bible. I love it when non-Christians either try to pretend they know what being a Christian means to a Christian -or better yet, insist they know much better how the religion should really be practiced over any Christian.

It is impossible to be a Christian, fundamentalist or not, and not believe in the concept of sin. The Bible makes it quite clear that NO ONE is sinless, whether they believe in Christ or not. While I have some disagreements with fundamentalist Christians, I assure you that a fundamentalist Christian does not believe they are no longer capable of sinning. Ideally, they look to their faith in order to avoid sinning as much as possible -but they will ALWAYS still fall short and sin. It is a fact. Only Christ was perfect -and faith in Christ will never result in that person being perfect from then on. Anyone who thinks Christians believe otherwise is ignorant about the religion.

Only atheists seem to be under the impression that Christians claim to be perfect and sinless people. But no Christian claims any such thing -fundamentalist or not.

But again, this kind of comment only sidetracks from the initial question regarding patriotism vs. pride. Since "patriotism" is not defined as having any kind of "pride" in the first place, having a love for one's country is no sin at all.

 

[Dr Grump]

Really? And where did you come up with that I wonder? Certainly not from talking to any Christian or reading the Bible. I love it when non-Christians either try to pretend they know what being a Christian means to a Christian -or better yet, insist they know much better how the religion should really be practiced over any Christian.

It is impossible to be a Christian, fundamentalist or not, and not believe in the concept of sin. The Bible makes it quite clear that NO ONE is sinless, whether they believe in Christ or not. While I have some disagreements with fundamentalist Christians, I assure you that a fundamentalist Christian does not believe they are no longer capable of sinning. Ideally, they look to their faith in order to avoid sinning as much as possible -but they will ALWAYS still fall short and sin. It is a fact. Only Christ was perfect -and faith in Christ will never result in that person being perfect from then on. Anyone who thinks Christians believe otherwise is ignorant about the religion.

Only atheists seem to be under the impression that Christians claim to be perfect and sinless people. But no Christian claims any such thing -fundamentalist or not.

But again, this kind of comment only sidetracks from the initial question regarding patriotism vs. pride. Since "patriotism" is not defined as having any kind of "pride" in the first place, having a love for one's country is no sin at all.

So you have no pride in your country?

 

[Diuretic]

I don't see a conflict between the two. While "pride" can be seen as self-indulgent and vacuous and of ignoring potential for improvement, "patriotism", as has been well explained, is love of country.

Now for me love of one's country isn't about pride, excessive love of one's country is "nationalism" and that might bump up against sins as "pride". Patriotism is what drives someone to defend their country, nationalism is what drives them to invade another.

Patriotism is also about improving one's country, nationalism (a form of pride) is about not admitting the wrongs and refusing to correct them.

I've seen nationalism in my fellow citizens but strangely not so much in this country as when they've overseas. I think their pride of country expands the further away they are, they become boastful and boorish. We saw it though in the so-called "Cronulla riots" of a few years ago where groups of drunken Anglo-Irish Australian youths waving our flag got into fights with Australian youths of Middle Eastern heritage.

Anyway, I don't think patriotism is a sin.

 

[Ravi]

Really? And where did you come up with that I wonder? Certainly not from talking to any Christian or reading the Bible. I love it when non-Christians either try to pretend they know what being a Christian means to a Christian -or better yet, insist they know much better how the religion should really be practiced over any Christian.

It is impossible to be a Christian, fundamentalist or not, and not believe in the concept of sin. The Bible makes it quite clear that NO ONE is sinless, whether they believe in Christ or not. While I have some disagreements with fundamentalist Christians, I assure you that a fundamentalist Christian does not believe they are no longer capable of sinning. Ideally, they look to their faith in order to avoid sinning as much as possible -but they will ALWAYS still fall short and sin. It is a fact. Only Christ was perfect -and faith in Christ will never result in that person being perfect from then on. Anyone who thinks Christians believe otherwise is ignorant about the religion.

Only atheists seem to be under the impression that Christians claim to be perfect and sinless people. But no Christian claims any such thing -fundamentalist or not.

But again, this kind of comment only sidetracks from the initial question regarding patriotism vs. pride. Since "patriotism" is not defined as having any kind of "pride" in the first place, having a love for one's country is no sin at all.

Well, maybe you've got me there. From what I've always understood, fundies believe that if you accept Jesus as your personal savior, it doesn't really matter what you do with your life. Rape, murder, pillage...all is forgiven because you accept Jesus as your personal savior. This is not my concept of sin, being the good Catholic girl I was raised to be. Feel free to poke holes in my beliefs, it's quite possible the nuns and priests misled me.

That is why I made the statement you took issue with.

 

[frazzledgear]

For the deductively challenged (that shall go unnamed):

Patriotism is love for one's country. One's country is an extention of one's self. Love for oneself is pride. While they're not synonymous, patriotism can very reasonably be categorized as a specific form of pride.

OMG -that is the biggest bunch of hooey. Love for oneself is PRIDE now -along with patriotism? Are you for real? Do you not love yourself? Maybe you really don't -but how can you possibly love anyone else if you first don't love and respect yourself? If you don't love yourself, how can you even recognize when someone else loves you? And how is that twisted to equal "pride" for you? You think Christians are religiously obligated to wallow in self-hatred and hatred of country so they won't be guilty of "pride" or what?

Sorry but God didn't try to obfuscate what He considers sins to be. The Bible has numerous examples of behaviors considered to be vice that followers are encouraged not to engage in. But as for sins, God was pretty up front with it. The Seven Deadly Sins were not written by God, but by Evagrius Ponticus, a Catholic monk. It was his opinion that the indulgence of these vices would lead man to sin. But since most of the world's Christians are not Catholics, I fail to see under what thinking, non-Catholic Christians are somehow obligated to obey not just the Ten Commandments written by God, but also bound to the writings of a Catholic monk and reiterated by a Catholic Pope. As a former Catholic, one of the reasons I left that church is because Catholics never were satisfied with just the Ten Commandments. They had to have another 23 or so to add to them, like not eating fish on Fridays and then deciding "oops" that isn't a sin anymore. And then claim God differentiated between "little" sins and "big" ones even though the Bible makes it clear that ALL sin is offensive to God and doesn't seem to have such a division into little-vs-big sins at all. Instead the Bible says just because someone committed different sins than you, it does not make you more righteous in the sight of God.

Stop pretending those are legitimate definitions of "patriotism" and "pride" when even an acrobat doesn't go through that many gymnastics.

Are you under the impression that because you haven't a clue what the real definition of "patriotism" is and came with this garbage, that everyone else is somehow obligated to accept this junk and pretend it actually defines "patriotism"? LOL

I guess by that same reasoning, it would be a sin for any Christian to love their spouse or their children as well. And hey -you would actually have a stronger "case" to argue that a Christian shouldn't love his children because after all, some people really do see their children as an extension of themselves and therefore, loving their children is just self-love and somehow self-love is also "pride". My country is my homeland and I love it -and no matter how many mental gymnastics you want to put yourself through -it just isn't a sin in the Christian religion.

You are just another poser who claims to understand what Christianity is about far better than any Christian possibly could -even if it means a completely phony, made-up definition of "patriotism" so that it suits your personal agenda.

Sorry, but no matter how much you would to pretend otherwise, "patriotism" isn't a disguised form of "pride". The definition of "pride" is "the inordinate opinion of one's own dignity, importance, merit, or superiority." And maybe you just haven't noticed -but there really isn't included anything about viewing one's homeland as a mere extension of self and therefore includes the love of one's own country. "Pride" just isn't ANY part of the definition of "patriotism". That means the love of one's country, like the love for one's spouse and children -are not sins. Sheesh.

 

[Gunny]

For the deductively challenged (that shall go unnamed):

Patriotism is love for one's country. One's country is an extention of one's self. Love for oneself is pride. While they're not synonymous, patriotism can very reasonably be categorized as a specific form of pride.

One's country is the place in which one lives by current definition. Patriotism would be a willingness and devotion to ensure that country succeeds against all enemies, both foreign and domestic.

It does not necessarily entail pride.

I can think of plenty of times my patriotism was unimpeachable, but there was shame rather than pride in the actions of this Nation and or its elected leaders.

 

[Gunny]

I think the problem is, a lot of right wingers have hijacked the term and call any non-conservatives unpatriotic...like only they have rights to use and define the term. On some message boards I put the word patriot in quotes when I think it is being misused in such a way.

LMAO. Nothing like labelling the whole with a generalization based on the actions of the few who actually do as you claim.

Is this where I trot out the names of liberals who ARE unpatriotic? Do those few names damn all of you liberals?

Didn't think so.

 

[frazzledgear]

From what I've always understood, fundies believe that if you accept Jesus as your personal savior, it doesn't really matter what you do with your life. Rape, murder, pillage...all is forgiven because you accept Jesus as your personal savior. This is not my concept of sin, being the good Catholic girl I was raised to be. Feel free to poke holes in my beliefs, it's quite possible the nuns and priests misled me.

That is why I made the statement you took issue with.

Where is your source for claiming fundamentalist Christians believe that as long as they accepted Christ, they are free to rape, murder and pillage? Ok, I guess from the nuns and priest comment you were initially raised Catholic -so was I, although I now a born-again Christian and no longer practice Catholicism.

But you clearly did not understand what any of the priests and nuns were telling you because it was no different from what Christian churches everywhere say.

The Bible says there is no sin too great that God would not forgive someone who asks for that forgiveness. And that does mean with a sincerity of the heart, not just mouthing the words -and God does know whether it is sincere or not. Which means that God can forgive murder, rape etc. since no sin is too big that He cannot forgive someone for it. But it sure doesn't mean you get to keep on doing it without consequences. I don't see how someone can sincerely have remorse for having offended God by such sins, have sincere remorse for the pain and suffering they caused to other people by committing such acts -only to turn around and keep on doing it.

It is like my parents used to tell me after insisting I really was sorry for the habitual breaking of one specific rule they had. "If you are really sorry about what you did as opposed to just sorry you got caught -then you wouldn't keep right on doing it." And truth be told -I was never sorry I kept breaking that one rule my parents had, but boy, I was sure sorry when I got caught doing so. But that kind of "sorry" never had any legitimate remorse behind it -and my parents knew it. Likewise, someone who continues murdering and raping and figures he is good with God as long as he claims to have accepted Christ -is only fooling himself, but it isn't fooling God.

Peter warned that many people who call themselves followers of Christ will not go to heaven -and he said it because there are many who only mouth the right words, but have never truly confessed to Christ they are lost and damned without Him and have accepted Him as their Savior in their heart. Just like my parents were never fooled because I told them the words I thought they would accept that might get be off the hook but never did -neither will mouthing the right words while it is nowhere in the heart ever fool God.

 

[Ravi]

From what I understand, to be born again means to have any "sin" committed in the past wiped away. So yes, you could rape, pillage, and murder and then accept Jesus as your personal savior and shoot right up to heaven.

Of course you can keep committing the sin and still be sorry about the sin, not just sorry about getting caught for it. Because we are weak, are we not, and none of it is really our fault...at least that is what I get from discussions with fundies. Therefore, my comment that fundies don't believe in the concept of sin holds true as it relates to their actions.

And Manuel is correct--excessive patriotism can be a sin of pride. Excessive anything can be a sin. But if you're a fundie you can easily rationalize it away by either pleading the I am just weak rationale, or by claiming the patriotism serves a greater purpose like running the country with the bible as rule book instead of the constitution. Reminds me of all the fundie screeds saying polluting the earth was okay because it just served to goose along the rapture.

 

[manifold]

I don't see a conflict between the two. While "pride" can be seen as self-indulgent and vacuous and of ignoring potential for improvement, "patriotism", as has been well explained, is love of country.

Now for me love of one's country isn't about pride, excessive love of one's country is "nationalism" and that might bump up against sins as "pride". Patriotism is what drives someone to defend their country, nationalism is what drives them to invade another.

Patriotism is also about improving one's country, nationalism (a form of pride) is about not admitting the wrongs and refusing to correct them.

I've seen nationalism in my fellow citizens but strangely not so much in this country as when they've overseas. I think their pride of country expands the further away they are, they become boastful and boorish. We saw it though in the so-called "Cronulla riots" of a few years ago where groups of drunken Anglo-Irish Australian youths waving our flag got into fights with Australian youths of Middle Eastern heritage.

Anyway, I don't think patriotism is a sin.

I'll buy that.

 

[Shogun]

I'll buy that.

you are goddamned right you will..

 

[frazzledgear]

I think the problem is, a lot of right wingers have hijacked the term and call any non-conservatives unpatriotic...like only they have rights to use and define the term. On some message boards I put the word patriot in quotes when I think it is being misused in such a way.

The problem you have with real patriots is this -hard for leftwing extremists to claim to be patriots at the same time they insist the US is the cause of all the ills of the world. If they REALLY believe that, then they just aren't naive. They are ignorant of history, human reality and just plain common sense. And they certainly are no patriots.

I am a patriot -my loyalty lies ONLY with country and I personally believe that no other country does it better while providing protection and services to other countries that will never be reciprocated. It is a bitch being a super power that doesn't seek to use its wealth and immense power to conquer the whole world, isn't it? It defies history -but still true. Unique among all nations in history with a unique history, Constitution and purpose for existence. But still, even among our own -there are people who NEED to believe we are among the worst, that the world would be better off if we did not exist. But to claim such people are "patriots"? That is a sick joke. Maybe you can fall for that -but I never can.

 

[jillian]

LMAO. Nothing like labelling the whole with a generalization based on the actions of the few who actually do as you claim.

Is this where I trot out the names of liberals who ARE unpatriotic? Do those few names damn all of you liberals?

Didn't think so.

I believe he said "a lot of right wingers", not all. And if you look at the tripe he was responding to, I'd say it fit.

 

[mal]

For the deductively challenged (that shall go unnamed):

Patriotism is love for one's country. One's country is an extention of one's self. Love for oneself is pride. While they're not synonymous, patriotism can very reasonably be categorized as a specific form of pride.

So you don't buy that bit about two becoming one when they marry? If not, I see the problem you are having with this. If you buy it though, one can certainly make the case that a spouse is an extension of one's self.

They become One Flesh because they Create Life...



peace...

 

[manifold]

I don't equate patriotism with pride so i'd call shenanigans on the assumption of such.

When did jebus ever suggest it was a sin to have a non-christian identity?

Not surprising. You rarely restrict yourself to the generally accepted definitions of things so why would you this time around?

 

[Sky Dancer]

Patriotism isn't a sin in Buddhism, but attachment to home and country is a cause of suffering.

 

[Ravi]

My own little stalker. So droll.