How Can One Be Simultaneously "Pro-Life" AND Pro-Death Penalty?

[Anachronism]

Isn't that THE definition of cognitive dissonance?

Please advise.

Very simple. Some of us aren't PRO-LIFE. We're ANTI-ABORTION. In fact many of us believe that the innocent child growing in that woman's womb is about the only creature in the world that does deserve that sort of protection. Once that child is out of the womb, it is subject to the same potential to have its life ended by any number of unfortuante and unpleasant means as any other living thing.

"So what's the difference between the unborn infant and the child, or when it grows up, that adult?" you may ask.... Very simple again.... Innocence. That unborn child has done absolutely nothing wrong. In fact it hasn't made any decisions at all about its existance. However, once that child does come into the world, it very quickly loses that innocence. By the time it's 4-5 years old I can guarantee you that innocence is totally gone. At that point it is subject to the same forces of natural order that all of us are.

 

[AllieBaba]

Isn't that THE definition of cognitive dissonance?

Please advise.

I'm not. I'm pro-life, and anti-death penalty.

 

[AllieBaba]

Isn't that THE definition of cognitive dissonance?

Please advise.

Very simple. Some of us aren't PRO-LIFE. We're ANTI-ABORTION. In fact many of us believe that the innocent child growing in that woman's womb is about the only creature in the world that does deserve that sort of protection. Once that child is out of the womb, it is subject to the same potential to have its life ended by any number of unfortuante and unpleasant means as any other living thing.

"So what's the difference between the unborn infant and the child, or when it grows up, that adult?" you may ask.... Very simple again.... Innocence. That unborn child has done absolutely nothing wrong. In fact it hasn't made any decisions at all about its existance. However, once that child does come into the world, it very quickly loses that innocence. By the time it's 4-5 years old I can guarantee you that innocence is totally gone. At that point it is subject to the same forces of natural order that all of us are.

With you until the part about all innocence is lost at 4-5. That's a little creepy, and in most instances, nowhere near true.

 

[PoliticalChic]

I suggest you reconsider your comment PC. See: The Innocence Project - Know the Cases

Jury's don't always get it right, investigators and prosecutors don't always disclose potentially exculpatory evidence, and defense teams don't always offer the best defense.

Well, then how about we limit the question to those proven and admitted guilty...would that be satisfactory?

Since rarely will a defendant plead guilty to First Degree Murder with Special Circumstances that would effectively end Capital Punishment.
While I admit a personal desire for retribution for those who commit such a crime, I find Capital Punishment to be a stupid way to met out punishment. The Cost to execute a prisoner today is enormous and far exceeds the cost to house the perp for decades in a maximum security prison.
Execution is the easy way out. Maximum security, no personal interatction with guards or other inmates, no contact visits by family or friends and only one hour a day of exercise. Spending each day alone with no TV, no radio, nothing to read seems to me a greater punishment than execution.

"Maximum security, no personal interatction with guards or other inmates, no contact visits by family or friends and only one hour a day of exercise. Spending each day alone with no TV, no radio, nothing to read seems to me a greater punishment than execution."

I can see that position....the problem is that they get out.

No matter the sentence, the judge....they get out.


1. It was a crime that shocked the nation, a brutal murder in Chicago in 1924 of a child, by two wealthy college students who killed solely for the thrill of the experience. Nathan Leopold and Richard Loeb had first met several years earlier, and their friendship had blossomed into a love affair. Both were intellectuals—too smart, they believed, for the police to catch them. For the Thrill of It: Leopold, Loeb, and the Murder That Shocked Chicago by Simon Baatz

2. It was, to oversimplify just a bit, the first great (nonpolitical) murder that prompted Americans to ask, "Why?" With so much given to them and such promising lives before them, how could "the boys," as they were called, have lured the innocent Franks into a rented car, beaten and strangled him, poured acid on his face and genitals, and dumped his body in a rural culvert?
They said they had killed Bobby Franks—Loeb's cousin—for "the thrill" of it. Leopold, Loeb, the "Thrill" of Murder, and the Crime of the Century - John A. Farrell (usnews.com)

3. Early in 1958, after 33 years in prison, Leopold was released on parole. Leopold moved to Puerto Rico to avoid media attention and married a widowed florist. He died in 1971. Leopold and Loeb - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[iamwhatiseem]

The OP is a rather simple-minded comparative question.
In fact they are instead two polar conditions - ending someone else's life that had no choice in the matter, and another whose choices lead to the end of their OWN life.

 

[rightwinger]

Our society either values life or it doesn't

In this case we allow the death penalty and abortion. What does that tell you?

 

[Liability]

Our society either values life or it doesn't

In this case we allow the death penalty and abortion. What does that tell you?

That you are adept at false dichotomies.

Our society does value life and that is precisely why we oppose abortion and may consistently favor putting killers to death.

The key factor remains INNOCENT life.

 

[Rozman]

If you can't figure that out?....

 

[cutter]

Everybody deserves the right to live. Some people, through their actions, forfeit that right.

 

[Zona]

The funny part is, the pro life guys are pro war as well.

How funny is that.

 

[AllieBaba]

The OP is a rather simple-minded comparative question.
In fact they are instead two polar conditions - ending someone else's life that had no choice in the matter, and another whose choices lead to the end of their OWN life.

People kill themselves when abortion is illegal?

Got some proof of that???

 

[AllieBaba]

BTW, women who get abortions ARE more likely to kill themselves:

"

Suicide attempts -- 6 times more likely
--- Teenagers are 6 times more likely to attempt suicide if they have had an abortion in the last six months than are teens who have not had an abortion.(1)
--- Teens who abort are up to 4 times more likely to commit suicide than adults who abort,(2) and a history of abortion is likely to be associated with adolescent suicidal thinking.(3)
--- Overall suicide rates are 6-7 times higher among women who abort.(4)
--- Teens who abort are more likely to develop psychological problems,(5) and are nearly three times more likely to be admitted to mental health hospitals than teens in general.(6)
--- About 40% of teen abortions take place with no parental involvement,(7) leaving parents in the dark about subsequent emotional or physical problems.
--- Teens risk further injury or death because they are unlikely to inform parents of any physical complications.
Some examples of teens who died from complications or suicide after they had abortions without telling their parents: (8)
Holly Patterson, California, died at age 18
Erica Richardson, Maryland, died at age 16
Dawn Ravanell, New York, died at age 13
Tamia Russell, Detroit, died at age 15
Sandra Kaiser, St. Louis, died at age 14 of suicide

Sandra died 3 weeks after her half-sister took her for an abortion without telling Sandra's mother, who could have warned doctors about Sandra's history of psychological problems that put her at risk for more problems after abortion.(9)
--- Teens are 5 times more likely to seek subsequent help for psychological and emotional problems compared to their peers who carry "unwanted pregnancies" to term.(10)
--- Teens are 3 times more likely to report subsequent trouble sleeping, and nine times more likely to report subsequent marijuana use after abortion.(10)
--- Among studies comparing abortion vs. carrying to term, worse outcomes are associated with abortion, even when the pregnancy is unplanned.(10)
--- 65% higher risk of clinical depression among women who abort.(11)
--- 65% experienced multiple symptoms of Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) among women who abort.(12) --- 64% of women who had undergone an abortion reported that they felt pressured by others to abort.(12)"

Abortions and Teens: A Factsheet


Citations
1. B. Garfinkel, et al., "Stress, Depression and Suicide: A Study of Adolescents in Minnesota," Responding to High Risk Youth (University of Minnesota: Minnesota Extension Service, 1986)
2. M. Gissler, et. al., "Suicides After Pregnancy in Finland: 1987-94: register linkage study," British Medical Journal, 313: 1431-1434, 1996; and N. Campbell, et. al., "Abortion in Adolescence," Adolescence, 23:813-823, 1988.
3. B. Garfinkel, et al., op. cit.
4. M. Gissler, et. al., op. cit.
5. W. Franz & D. Reardon, "Differential Impact of Abortion on adolescents and adults," Adolescence, 27 (105), 172, 1992.
6. R. Somers, "Risk of Admission to Psychiatric Institutions Among Danish Women Who Experienced Induced Abortion: An Analysis Based on National Report Linkage" (Ph.D. Dissertation, Los Angeles: University of California, 1979, Disseration Abstracts International, Public Health 2621-B, Order No. 7926066)
7. "Teenage Pregnancy: Overall Trends and State-by-State Information," Report by the Alan Guttmmacher Institute, Washington, DC, www.agi.org.
8. S. Ertelt, "Woman Dies Following Use of RU-486 Abortion Drug," posted at www.lifenews.com, Sept. 19, 2003; K. Sherlock, Victims of Choice (Akron: Brennyman Books, 1996) 31-32, 40-41; and P. Nowak, "Family of Detroit Girl Who Died From Abortion Speaks Out," posted at www.lifenews.com/state504.html, April 9, 2004. 9. R. Kerrison, "Horror Tale of Abortion," New York Post, Jan. 7, 1991.
10. PK Coleman, "Resolution of Unwanted Pregnancy During Adolescence Through Abortion Versus Childbirth: Individual and Family Predictors and Psychological Consequences," Journal of Youth and Adolescence (2006).
11. JR Cougle, DC Reardon & PK Coleman, "Depression Associated With Abortion and Childbirth: A Long-Term Analysis of the NLSY Cohort," Medical Science Monitor 9(4):CR105-112, 2003.
12. VM Rue et. al., "Induced abortion and traumatic stress: A preliminary comparison of American and Russian women," Medical Science Monitor 10(10): SR5-16, 2004.
13. E. Belanger, et. al., "Pain of First Trimester Abortion: A Study of Psychosocial and Medical Predictors," Pain, 36:339; and G.M. Smith, et. al., "Pain of first trimester abortion: Its quantification and relationships with other variables," American Journal Obstetrics & Gynecology, 133:489, 1979.
14. R.T. Burkman, et. al., "Morbidity Risk Among Young Adolescents Undergoing Elective Abortion," Contraception, 30(2):99, 1984; and K.F. Schulz, et. al., "Measures to Prevent Cervical Injury During Suction Curettage Abortion," The Lancet, 1182-1184, May 28, 1993 .
15. R.T. Burkman, et. al., "Culture and treatment results in endometritis following elective abortion," American J. Obstet. & Gynecol., 128:556, 1997; and D. Avonts and P. Piot, "Genital infections in women undergoing induced abortion," European J. Obstet. & Gynecol. & Reproductive Biology, 20:53, 1985; and W. Cates, Jr., "Teenagers and Sexual Risk-Taking: The Best of Times and the Worst of Times," Journal of Adolescent Health, 12:84, 1991.
16. "Teenage Pregnancy: Overall Trends and State-by-State Information," Report by the Alan Guttmmacher Institute, Washington, DC, www.agi.org.
17. J. Brind, et. al., "Induced abortion as an independent risk factor for breast cancer: a comprehensive review and analysis," J. Epidemiology & Community Health, 50:481, 1996.
18. K.D. Kochanck, "Induced Terminations of Pregnancy, Reporting States 1988," Monthly Vital Statistics Report, 39(12): Suppl. 1-32, April 30, 1991.
19. P. Barglow and S. Weinstein, "Therapeutic Abortion During Adolescence: Psychiatric Observations," Journal of Youth and Adolescence, 2(4):33, 1973.
20. W. Franz& D. Reardon, "Differential Impact of Abortion on adolescents and adults," Adolescence, 27 (105), 172, 1992.
21. T. Strahan, "Differential Adverse Impact on Teenagers Who Undergo Induced Abortion," Association for Interdisciplinary Research Bulletin, 15(1):3, March/April 2000.
22. D. Reardon, Making Abortion Rare (Springfield, IL: Acorn Books, 1996) 162.
23. T. Strahan, "Psycho-Social Aspects of Late-Term Abortions," Assoc. For Interdisciplinary Research Bulletin, 14(4):1, 2000.
24. R.T. Burkman, et. al., "Culture and treatment results in endometritis following elective abortion," American J. Obstet. & Gynecol., 128:556, 1997; and S. Lurie and Z. Shoham, "Induced Midtrimester Abortion and Future Fertility: Where Are We Today?" International J. of Fertility, 40(6):311, 1995.
25. H.K. Atrash and C.J. Hogue, "The effect of pregnancy termination on future reproduction," Baillieres Clinic Obstet. & Gynecol., 4(2):391, 1990; and B. Rooney, "Is Cerebral Palsy Ever a Choice?" The Post-Abortion Review, 8(4):4-5, Oct.-Dec. 2000.
26. H. Amaro, et al., "Drug use among adolescent mothers: profile of risk," Pediatrics, 84, 1989, 144-150.
27. Horowitz, "Adolescent Mourning Reactions to Infant and Fetal Loss," Soc. Casework, 59:551, 1978.
28. E. M. Smith, "A follow-up study of women who request abortion," American Journal of Orthopsychiatry, 1973, 43: 574-585.
29. G. Zakus, G. & Wilday, "Adolescent Abortion Option." Social Work in Health Care, 12, 1987, 77-91.
30. F. Biro, et al., "Acute and Long-Term Consequences of Adolescents Who Choose Abortions," Pediatric Annals, 15(10):667-672, 1986.
31. N. Campbell, et. al., "Abortion in Adolescence," Adolescence, 23:813-823, 1988.
32. S.R. Wheeler, "Adolescent Pregnancy Loss," in J.R. Woods, Jr. and J.L. Woods (eds.), Loss During Pregnancy or the Newborn Period (1997); and H. Cvejic et. al., "Follow-up of 50 adolescent girls 2 years after abortion," Canadian Medical Assoc. Journal, 116:44, 1997.
33. T. Joyce, "The Social and Economic Correlates of Pregnancy Resolution Among Adolescents in New York by Race and Ethnicity: A Mulitvariate Analysis," American J. of Public Health, 78(6):626, 1988

 

[Anachronism]

The funny part is, the pro life guys are pro war as well.

How funny is that.

Again, most of us aren't Pro-Life. We're Anti-Abortion. There IS a major difference.

 

[MarcATL]

Our society either values life or it doesn't

In this case we allow the death penalty and abortion. What does that tell you?

That you are adept at false dichotomies.

Our society does value life and that is precisely why we oppose abortion and may consistently favor putting killers to death.

The key factor remains INNOCENT life.

Really?

Does that innocence life meme you go going there go for Iraqis and/or Muslims as well?

I believe more than a few of your types were quite please with the Bombs Over Baghdad party Bush & Co threw some 6 - 8 years back now.

 

[gautama]

ShitATL has the basic flaw of Black Racists which is their opinion that there is only the existence of "EITHER & OR" Options. For these idiots, there isn't an "IN-BETWEEN" option.

Hence, "EITHER" for LIFE (i.e. No Abortion).....and NO DEATH PENALTY.

"OR" Against LIFE (i.e. For Abortion) ......and YES for DEATH PENALTY.

Black Racist Idiots, like ShitALT cannot possibly conceive the "IN BETWEEN" options.

Which leads me to consider the MORE IMPORTANT CONSEQUENCES of this Black Racist Idiotic mode of thinking.

ShitATL has the typical Black Racist interpretation that renders the World into two camps Black & White.....and these two camps.....by his demented thinking .......... HAVE TO BE ANTAGONISTIC TO EACH OTHER.

Discounting, for a moment, the all important fact that the World is NOT composed of only BLACKS or WHITES.....but by, also, REDS, BROWNS, YELLOWS, etc......and, the almost INFINITE multiple mixtures of these "colours" with time ...... I proceed.

Naturally, each defined (?) category of people such as "blacks" or "whites" would naturally be in favour of "favours" that would be beneficial to them....even at the expense of justice.

Ideally, both categories (even though being in favour of greater largesse) would gladly acquiesce to abide by what is considered reasonably neutral.

Therein lies the rub......Black Racists such as ShitATL wallowing in "VICTIMOLOGY" still cling to the idea that, basically, anything that America has of any value......belongs to the blacks because they, the blacks, by being slaves, worked their asses off doing manual labour.....labour that can be ( to a major extent) generally replaced by donkeys.....some TWO HUNDRED YEARS AGO !!!

By performing work, basically analogous, to beasts of burden SOME TWO HUNDRED YEARS AGO.....they, the blacks (according to Black Racist Idiots like ShitATL) are entitled to all the benefits that society has contributed throughout the TWO CENTURIES by economic innovations, wondrous inventions, Americanized immigrants, etc...... which the blacks, with their disproportionately low IQs ........have contributed ZERO, NADA, ZILCHO !!!

Please note that in the Sub Saharan Africa where these blacks come from, their innate IQ (without the admixture of non-negro DNA) is anywhere between 60 - 70 depending which territory one refers to. Only superceding the Australian Aborigene who, until recently, did not have numbers greater than TWO......in other words, it was ONE, TWO......then "MANY". Note: The Sub Saharan Negroes did not even have a written language until recently....and that was primarily English & French. That, alone, bespeaks of a LUDICROUSLY LOW IQ .... similar to baboons (?)

While on the subject.....the present blacks should kiss the feet of the slaveowners for allowing their hardworking ancestors (as beasts of burden) to come to America.....otherwise, these present American black ingrates would be back in the Sub Saharan African Paradise, being illiterates munching on pebbles & grass.

My point is this: The Black Racist nincompoops....and that is approx 95% of them....the figure being based on their MONOLITHICALLY RACIST voting pattern underlined by their almost TOTAL rejection of their vote for the wife of the "FIRST" Black President of USA, Slick Willy ..... while justifiably, or arguably, clamouring for "EQUAL RIGHTS" the first 150 years or so.......In the last 50 years, MOST DEFINITELY do not deserve even a NANOGRAM of consideration because of the RIDICULOUSLY DISPROPORTIONATE INUNDATION of our Tax Money spent on a slew of AFFIRMATIVE ACTION programs, disproportionate amount of Welfare and Educational legislation PRIMARILY directed to subsidize the indolent blacks, and their DISASTROUS DISPROPORTIONAL CRIME RATES and, their otherwise SOCIALLY OBSTRUCTIVE BEHAVIOUR.

Final Point: The American Blacks are the LAST category of citizens that should bitch, whine, howl, yowl, or clamour for "EQUAL" representation when the Blacks OWN the Democratic Party.

The Blacks OWN the Democratic Party because without their MONOLITHIC BLACK RACIST VOTE ......... they have ~ 13% of the TOTAL AMERICAN VOTE (less the negroes of non-voting age) ......THE DEM PARTY COULD NOT EXIST !!!

Can you think of any election the Dem Party would have won without that percentage of the Black Monolithic votes ??!?!?

The Dem Party KNOWS this.

The CORRUPT RACIST Congressional Black Caucus KNOWS this.

And, the CORRUPT RACIST Congressional Black Caucus TAKES ADVANTAGE OF THE FACT THAT, BASICALLY, THEY OWN THE DEM PARTY !!!

 

[AllieBaba]

Our society either values life or it doesn't

In this case we allow the death penalty and abortion. What does that tell you?

That you are adept at false dichotomies.

Our society does value life and that is precisely why we oppose abortion and may consistently favor putting killers to death.

The key factor remains INNOCENT life.

Really?

Does that innocence life meme you go going there go for Iraqis and/or Muslims as well?

I believe more than a few of your types were quite please with the Bombs Over Baghdad party Bush & Co threw some 6 - 8 years back now.

False premise, red herring, ad hominem.

 

[bucs90]

Isn't that THE definition of cognitive dissonance?

Please advise.

Um.................easy answer.

A baby is innocent.

A cop-killer is not.



That said, how can anyone be Pro-Abortion....yet Anti-Death Penalty? The way I see it, the former stances makes perfect sense while the latter is the logic of a retard.

 

[The Infidel]

Isn't that THE definition of cognitive dissonance?

Please advise.

Um.................easy answer.

A baby is innocent.

A cop-killer is not.



That said, how can anyone be Pro-Abortion....yet Anti-Death Penalty? The way I see it, the former stances makes perfect sense while the latter is the logic of a retard.

Liberalism is a mental disorder.... plain & simple

 

[RetiredGySgt]

Isn't that THE definition of cognitive dissonance?

Please advise.

The death penalty is meted out to criminals via the Legal system, they are given a trial by their peers, have to meet very stringent requirements to even be considered for the death penalty. They get YEARS of appeals and most never get executed.

Nothing at all similar to mom just deciding she doesn't wanna be fat for a couple months. So she kills her child.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Isn't that THE definition of cognitive dissonance?

Please advise.

How can one be so stupid and still able to type?

There is no conflict between being anti abortion and pro death penalty. Both positions are about protecting the lives of innocent people. Or do you think the death penalty is routinely to random people on the street who have committed no crimes?