"Hope" and "Change"???? Definitely "Change"... but not much "Hope"

[Zaphod]

The why does he let congress draft all of his bills on his so called important issues when the halls and backrooms of congress are exactly where the lobbyists live and do most of their damage?

Constitutional separation of powers.... Welcome to America

 

[drsmith1072]

What plan has Obama brought to the table?

What specifics did he mention in his press conference the other night?

The repubicans have a plan. you'e just to drunk on obama kool-aid to recognize it.

LOL how can you honestly criticize obama for presenting what you claim to be "rhetorical BS and absolutely no specifics” and then try to praise the republican "plan" when it fits that description perfectly?? If you are that blind to your own hypocrisy then the only one drinking kool-aid, is YOU.

The funny thing is that I even quoted your own article that states the republican plan lacks specifics and you can't even deal with that FACT let alone the FACT that a republican when talking about this "plan" admits that they don't have a plan when he states the following, Rep. Roy Blunt (R-Mo.) said "we believe we can come up with a plan where every person in the uninsured has access to insurance."
If you have to "come up with" something it means that you don't have it yet.

Hey stupid, show me where I " praised the republican plan". What I presented was evidence that the republicans had a plan which directly countered dumbfucks argument that the republicans had no plan. Whether or not the plan has specifics in it or not is beside the point. Dumbfucks argument was Obama's plan,which he doesn't have but you people seem to think his plan and the democratic plan is one and the same. And maybe it is but the one doesn't resemble the other.

UH did you miss the FACT that you continue to try and talk the republican "plan" up when it is the exact same thing that you are criticizing about what you claim obama said? What you presented was an IDEA that was presented by republicans in lieu of a REAL plan.
Oh and I just love the FACT that you expose your hypocrisy again. Wasn't it you who said "The only thing I hear coming from his lips is more rhetorical BS and absolutely no specifics?" So for democrats you demand more, have a higher standard and apparently you don't feel the need to apply that same standard honestly and fairly to the republican "plan." LOL

 

[Skull Pilot]

The why does he let congress draft all of his bills on his so called important issues when the halls and backrooms of congress are exactly where the lobbyists live and do most of their damage?

Constitutional separation of powers.... Welcome to America

Congress can vote on a proposal they did not write.

Wouldn't that be better because then they would actually have to read it before they voted on it?

 

[Zaphod]

The term "public option" IS spin.

The notion that a public insurance option will result in increased competition is ludicrous. there is no competition when a public plan can draw on unlimited resources of our tax dollars to prop it up even if it is failing.

A private company cannot do that so guess who wins the "competition" The fucking government.

So the insurance industry cannot compete with a fat, bloated and corrupt entity like the Government?
How are they the best solution if they cannot compete?
Either way you look at it, it is MY $$ being spent, so why would I want to pay more? Why wouldn't I want the cheaper option?
What part of the proposed bill eliminates health care options????

 

[Zaphod]

Congress can vote on a proposal they did not write.

Wouldn't that be better because then they would actually have to read it before they voted on it?

So congress wrote it, but did not read it, or the president wrote it, and they did not read it?
How do you write something, and 'not read it'?

 

[Skull Pilot]

The term "public option" IS spin.

The notion that a public insurance option will result in increased competition is ludicrous. there is no competition when a public plan can draw on unlimited resources of our tax dollars to prop it up even if it is failing.

A private company cannot do that so guess who wins the "competition" The fucking government.

So the insurance industry cannot compete with a fat, bloated and corrupt entity like the Government?
How are they the best solution if they cannot compete?
Either way you look at it, it is MY $$ being spent, so why would I want to pay more? Why wouldn't I want the cheaper option?
What part of the proposed bill eliminates health care options????

God you are fucking dense.

All the government has to do is to keep ratcheting up the cost for insurance companies by piling on more and more regulation and requirements.

This of course will necessitate premium increases or coverage decreases when the government is mandating that private insurers can neither raise prices nor decrease benefits.

It doesn't matter to the government plan how much it costs because they'll just tap our wallets or paychecks or raise taxes on businesses to cover the costs.

The end result is it will be too expensive for privately run and owned insurance companies to stay in business.

You seem to think you are so smart and you can't figure that out?

 

[drsmith1072]

Where is obama's plan?

Hello, it is that thing being debated in the houses, you know, that thing the Republicans are Crying about nightly? Now what proposal have the Republicans put on the table to be debated openly?

I see so Obama himself doesn't have a plan. which you said he did. So I guess that makes you a liar.

The bill the democrats are trying to push doesn't even remotely resemble what Obama spoke about in his latest press conference. Remember Obama said, "I want to be very clear: I will not sign on to any health plan that adds to our deficits over the next decade,". Well the plan the democrats are pushing will in fact add to the deficit according to the Congressional Budget Office when it reported that the overall cost of the House bill would "result in a net increase in the federal budget deficit of $239 billion over the 2010-2019 period."

Obama promised: “If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor. Period. If you like your health care plan, you will be able to keep your health care plan. Period. No one will take it away. No matter what.”

Well again the CBO disagrees. According to their analysis, bill would enable 39 million Americans to obtain health insurance, the plan would kick about 15 million people out of the system because their employers would no longer offer insurance, and coverage from other sources would decline by 8 million.

So there's two examples of of the differences in what Obama invisions and what the democrats or putting forth.

LOL That's hilarious. You claim that they are NOTHING alike and then provide two aspects where you claim that they differ and believe that proves your point.

BTW your second point is a load of hogwash. If your employer drops your insurance and then you have to switch doctors based on what your employer CHOSE to do then how is that a requirement of obama's plan?? He clearly states that his plan would not require you to switch doctors and it wouldn't.

 

[Zaphod]

All the government has to do is to keep ratcheting up the cost for insurance companies by piling on more and more regulation and requirements.

Argument based on an assumption that it will happen...

This of course will necessitate premium increases or coverage decreases when the government is mandating that private insurers can neither raise prices nor decrease benefits.

Nothing to do with giving that CEO a 15 million a year raise to replace the one that left and had a 40 million dollar parachute.

It doesn't matter to the government plan how much it costs because they'll just tap our wallets or paychecks or raise taxes on businesses to cover the costs.

Either way it is ME paying the costs, NOT a hand out as some political spin suggests...

The end result is it will be too expensive for privately run and owned insurance companies to stay in business

If they cannot compete.. let them fail! it is the American way... Competition!

You seem to think you are so smart and you can't figure that out?

Bloated businesses that cannot compete should NOT cost me more $$, a smart guy like you should be able to grasp that concept, right?

 

[toomuchtime_]

The term "public option" IS spin.

The notion that a public insurance option will result in increased competition is ludicrous. there is no competition when a public plan can draw on unlimited resources of our tax dollars to prop it up even if it is failing.

A private company cannot do that so guess who wins the "competition" The fucking government.

So the insurance industry cannot compete with a fat, bloated and corrupt entity like the Government?
How are they the best solution if they cannot compete?
Either way you look at it, it is MY $$ being spent, so why would I want to pay more? Why wouldn't I want the cheaper option?
What part of the proposed bill eliminates health care options????

If the public option receives subsidies, it will not be cheaper, you will simply be paying part of the cost of health insurance in higher taxes or more debt - the subsidy money has to come from somewhere. If these subsidies are used to keep the public option's premiums artificially low, private insurance choices will be driven from the market. If Obama, Pelosi, et. al., would write into the bill a prohibition against the public option receiving future subsidies, much of the opposition to it would disappear, but they have refused to do this.

If the public option could really help reduce health insurance costs because it would be non profit and have lower administration costs, much as already existing non profit insurance companies, why would it need subsidies, and if it can't why would we want it? If the public option is not intended as the beginning of a government takeover of health insurance, it has no purpose at all.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Congress can vote on a proposal they did not write.

Wouldn't that be better because then they would actually have to read it before they voted on it?

So congress wrote it, but did not read it, or the president wrote it, and they did not read it?
How do you write something, and 'not read it'?

so you are stupid enough to believe that even though congress wrote the stimulus package that every person who voted for it read all of it?

 

[Skull Pilot]

All the government has to do is to keep ratcheting up the cost for insurance companies by piling on more and more regulation and requirements.

Argument based on an assumption that it will happen...

This of course will necessitate premium increases or coverage decreases when the government is mandating that private insurers can neither raise prices nor decrease benefits.

Nothing to do with giving that CEO a 15 million a year raise to replace the one that left and had a 40 million dollar parachute.

Either way it is ME paying the costs, NOT a hand out as some political spin suggests...

The end result is it will be too expensive for privately run and owned insurance companies to stay in business

If they cannot compete.. let them fail! it is the American way... Competition!

You seem to think you are so smart and you can't figure that out?

Bloated businesses that cannot compete should NOT cost me more $$, a smart guy like you should be able to grasp that concept, right?

Since when does government run anything like a business you twit?

A government entitlement funded by tax payer dollar has as much in common with a real business as you do with someone who has a fucking clue.

 

[Zaphod]

Since when does government run anything like a business you twit?

A government entitlement funded by tax payer dollar has as much in common with a real business as you do with someone who has a fucking clue.

Why should I pay MORE again? So that corporation can afford that 40 million dollar golden parachute payments?

so you are stupid enough to believe that even though congress wrote the stimulus package that every person who voted for it read all of it?

More likely than if they are just handed a bill from a third party, that they didn't write, like the President! Perhaps YOU are stupid enough to believe that they are more likely to read and know more about proposed legislation that they did not write themselves? <it does seem to be your argument after all, which is a REALLY stupid argument to make IMHO>

 

[Zaphod]

If the public option receives subsidies, it will not be cheaper, you will simply be paying part of the cost of health insurance in higher taxes or more debt - the subsidy money has to come from somewhere.

YUP, they come from MY POCKET... and if it is CHEAPER that the other option, WHY WOULD I WANT TO PAY MORE?

If these subsidies are used to keep the public option's premiums artificially low, private insurance choices will be driven from the market.

I just do not see how subsidizing myself is BAD. If the insurance companies CANNOT COMPETE, how are they the best health care solution?

If the public option could really help reduce health insurance costs because it would be non profit and have lower administration costs

The US Government... Lower administrative costs than insurance companies????? This is not a good argument to make FOR the insurance companies case, TRUST me...

 

[Lonestar_logic]

I see so Obama himself doesn't have a plan. which you said he did. So I guess that makes you a liar.

Pfft, the bill currently in the house is a work in progress. as EVERY piece of legislation is. What goes into the meat grinder does not always look the same when it comes out. It is the constitutional legislative process in action, and it is the same for EVERY president. If THAT is your standard, Bush NEVER had any plans... and neither will any president!

Well again the CBO disagrees. According to their analysis, bill would enable 39 million Americans to obtain health insurance, the plan would kick about 15 million people out of the system because their employers would no longer offer insurance, and coverage from other sources would decline by 8 million.

So how does it make it MORE affordable, so that 39 million MORE can afford it, while at the same time make it so that employers could no longer afford it? Unless they would not offer it for other reasons than affordability?
I smell spin...

Read the CBO's report yourself, dumbass!

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Whether or not the plan has specifics in it or not is beside the point.

ROTFLMAO!!!!!

Nuff said!
IT IS A PLAN!!! JUST IGNORE THE LACK OF DETAILS!
How partisan is that, really?

I've asked you to show the specifics on Obama's plan and you have yet to offer anything so don't give me that "just ignore the details" rant.

Were you born stupid or have you been working at it your whole life?

 

[Meister]

Do you think the democrats would even consider one from the right?

The public will.... it is the public that elects politicians.
It is dishonest and LAZY to assume no one will listen to your supposedly BETTER ideas, that you CLAIM to have and then never present them for debate and let the American people make up their own minds, and hold their elected politician accountable for choosing the WRONG plan.

Could it be that the Republicans are just trying to put party interests FIRST and play politics with national health care?
If Republicans WANT my vote again, they will have to DO SOMETHING other than complain... Like show me that they have BETTER ideas!

The republicans could have all the answers in a bill(not that they do) but, the democrats wouldn't let it get beyond a meaningless piece of paper. You seem to think that the democrats really care about the people...they don't, they care about their own re election and the power grab for their party. Don't be so damn naive.
Zaphod...let's get one thing straight...the republicans are no stupider than the democrats OK? That halthcare bill is a sham and nothing more. They make the language of it so it can't be comprehended by anyone other than a lawyer...that's not by accident.

By the way you act like the republicans are the problem with this bill. They don't need one damn vote from the republicans to push it through. They have a problem with the democrats passing it, fool. When their own won't pass it, that should be a red flag for you that it is a sham.
Only a partisan couldn't see that.

 

[Zaphod]

Read the CBO's report yourself, dumbass!

I did not call you a liar, or accuse you of misrepresenting it in anyway... I detailed why it did not make sense and instead of explaining, you call names... My reasons for thinking it smelled like spin are valid.

I've asked you to show the specifics on Obama's plan and you have yet to offer anything so don't give me that "just ignore the details" rant.

Were you born stupid or have you been working at it your whole life?

WAAAAAA

I don't want to look up what is being debated and is a matter of public record for myself, DO IT FOR ME!!!!


I'm still waiting for you to show me what 'plan' the republicans have submitted for debate...
<this is where you whine and cry about how 'they' do not want to debate it>

 

[Lonestar_logic]

LOL how can you honestly criticize obama for presenting what you claim to be "rhetorical BS and absolutely no specifics” and then try to praise the republican "plan" when it fits that description perfectly?? If you are that blind to your own hypocrisy then the only one drinking kool-aid, is YOU.

The funny thing is that I even quoted your own article that states the republican plan lacks specifics and you can't even deal with that FACT let alone the FACT that a republican when talking about this "plan" admits that they don't have a plan when he states the following, Rep. Roy Blunt (R-Mo.) said "we believe we can come up with a plan where every person in the uninsured has access to insurance."
If you have to "come up with" something it means that you don't have it yet.

Hey stupid, show me where I " praised the republican plan". What I presented was evidence that the republicans had a plan which directly countered dumbfucks argument that the republicans had no plan. Whether or not the plan has specifics in it or not is beside the point. Dumbfucks argument was Obama's plan,which he doesn't have but you people seem to think his plan and the democratic plan is one and the same. And maybe it is but the one doesn't resemble the other.

UH did you miss the FACT that you continue to try and talk the republican "plan" up when it is the exact same thing that you are criticizing about what you claim obama said? What you presented was an IDEA that was presented by republicans in lieu of a REAL plan.
Oh and I just love the FACT that you expose your hypocrisy again. Wasn't it you who said "The only thing I hear coming from his lips is more rhetorical BS and absolutely no specifics?" So for democrats you demand more, have a higher standard and apparently you don't feel the need to apply that same standard honestly and fairly to the republican "plan." LOL

I said they had a plan, which they do. How the fuck is that "talking it up"?

And yes I said that what you quoted me as saying and it's the truth. I never said the republicans had "plans to fix the problem". But dumbass stated Obama "has plans to fix the problems he talks about..." And that's when I correctly stated that Obama didn't lay out any specifics.

Please do try to keep up!

I'll try to type slower.

 

[Skull Pilot]

Since when does government run anything like a business you twit?

A government entitlement funded by tax payer dollar has as much in common with a real business as you do with someone who has a fucking clue.

Why should I pay MORE again? So that corporation can afford that 40 million dollar golden parachute payments?

More than what? You assume that ALL insurance companies pay 40 million dollar retirement benefits?

So if we follow your logic, because if the government is involved in anything it will cost you less even though the government raises you taxes and takes away all other choices.

And I assume that you think social security will give you more to live on in retirement than if you had control over that money right?

After all government does everything cheaper and better.

so you are stupid enough to believe that even though congress wrote the stimulus package that every person who voted for it read all of it?

More likely than if they are just handed a bill from a third party, that they didn't write, like the President! Perhaps YOU are stupid enough to believe that they are more likely to read and know more about proposed legislation that they did not write themselves? <it does seem to be your argument after all, which is a REALLY stupid argument to make IMHO>

OK so congress doesn't read their own bills nor does it read someone else's bills.

Now tell me again why you trust congress with your health care?

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Hello, it is that thing being debated in the houses, you know, that thing the Republicans are Crying about nightly? Now what proposal have the Republicans put on the table to be debated openly?

I see so Obama himself doesn't have a plan. which you said he did. So I guess that makes you a liar.

The bill the democrats are trying to push doesn't even remotely resemble what Obama spoke about in his latest press conference. Remember Obama said, "I want to be very clear: I will not sign on to any health plan that adds to our deficits over the next decade,". Well the plan the democrats are pushing will in fact add to the deficit according to the Congressional Budget Office when it reported that the overall cost of the House bill would "result in a net increase in the federal budget deficit of $239 billion over the 2010-2019 period."

Obama promised: “If you like your doctor, you will be able to keep your doctor. Period. If you like your health care plan, you will be able to keep your health care plan. Period. No one will take it away. No matter what.”

Well again the CBO disagrees. According to their analysis, bill would enable 39 million Americans to obtain health insurance, the plan would kick about 15 million people out of the system because their employers would no longer offer insurance, and coverage from other sources would decline by 8 million.

So there's two examples of of the differences in what Obama invisions and what the democrats or putting forth.

LOL That's hilarious. You claim that they are NOTHING alike and then provide two aspects where you claim that they differ and believe that proves your point.

BTW your second point is a load of hogwash. If your employer drops your insurance and then you have to switch doctors based on what your employer CHOSE to do then how is that a requirement of obama's plan?? He clearly states that his plan would not require you to switch doctors and it wouldn't.

Hogwash?? pardon me if I take the CBO's word over yours.

And yes two examples where Obama and the democrats are obviosly not looking at the same proposal.