"Hope" and "Change"???? Definitely "Change"... but not much "Hope"

[Zaphod]

The republicans could have all the answers in a bill(not that they do) but, the democrats wouldn't let it get beyond a meaningless piece of paper.

and where does this 'bill' exist, besides in the imaginations of the extremely partisan?

You seem to think that the democrats really care about the people..

ROTFLAMO and you base THAT assumption on???????

they don't, they care about their own re election and the power grab for their party. Don't be so damn naive.

Just like the Republicans!!!! REALLY???? OHH NOOO!!!!!

Q: do you always base your posts on assumptions like this? I hope so, your ignorance is FUN!

the republicans are no stupider than the democrats OK?

Never said that they were! As a matter of FACT, I hate them both equally, and have stated so in this thread already.... but please GO ON!

That halthcare bill is a sham and nothing more. They make the language of it so it can't be comprehended by anyone other than a lawyer...that's not by accident.

Just like every other piece of legislation, like the Patriot act?

By the way you act like the republicans are the problem with this bill.

No, you really should READ... I blame the Republicans for not offering an alternative piece of legislation! This current proposal is all the Democrats!

When their own won't pass it, that should be a red flag for you that it is a sham.

Yup, that is the ONLY possible explanation for it!

 

[Lonestar_logic]

Read the CBO's report yourself, dumbass!

I did not call you a liar, or accuse you of misrepresenting it in anyway... I detailed why it did not make sense and instead of explaining, you call names... My reasons for thinking it smelled like spin are valid.

I've asked you to show the specifics on Obama's plan and you have yet to offer anything so don't give me that "just ignore the details" rant.

Were you born stupid or have you been working at it your whole life?

WAAAAAA

I don't want to look up what is being debated and is a matter of public record for myself, DO IT FOR ME!!!!


I'm still waiting for you to show me what 'plan' the republicans have submitted for debate...
<this is where you whine and cry about how 'they' do not want to debate it>

Aww did I hurt your wittle feelings...

Obama is not on record with any specifics so how the fuck can I look them up? Fuck you people are stupid!!!

Thankfully I'm out of here for the weekend.

In the meantime try to educate yourself.

 

[Zaphod]

OK so congress doesn't read their own bills nor does it read someone else's bills.

But that does not answer my question, now does it...

Now tell me again why you trust congress with your health care?

Because I have a functional example of why I should not trust health care with private insurance companies and only a theory based on assumptions as to why I should not trust congress. Not to mention NO ALTERNATIVE PLAN...

More than what? You assume that ALL insurance companies pay 40 million dollar retirement benefits?

If they CANNOT compete with a bloated corrupt federal government, YUP!

So if we follow your logic, because if the government is involved in anything it will cost you less even though the government raises you taxes and takes away all other choices.

There is nothing in the bill that takes away choices...

After all government does everything cheaper and better.

If they are not cheaper, why can't the insurance companies compete again? If they can't compete, why would I want to pay MORE for their service?

 

[Skull Pilot]

OK so congress doesn't read their own bills nor does it read someone else's bills.

But that does not answer my question, now does it...

Now tell me again why you trust congress with your health care?

Because I have a functional example of why I should not trust health care with private insurance companies and only a theory based on assumptions as to why I should not trust congress. Not to mention NO ALTERNATIVE PLAN...


If they CANNOT compete with a bloated corrupt federal government, YUP!

So if we follow your logic, because if the government is involved in anything it will cost you less even though the government raises you taxes and takes away all other choices.

There is nothing in the bill that takes away choices...

After all government does everything cheaper and better.

If they are not cheaper, why can't the insurance companies compete again? If they can't compete, why would I want to pay MORE for their service?

There is no competition because government has an unlimited amount of resources namely your and everyone else's money and private companies don't. Private companies have to actually pay their bills and can't just tax it's customers or print money. There is no competition because government can place regulations and restrictions on private businesses that are impossible to comply with.


Jesus you're a fucking moron who obviously knows nothing about business.

Tell you what, open a company that competes with any government program and tell me how it works out.

 

[Zaphod]

Tell you what, open a company that competes with any government program and tell me how it works out

Should I call it Fedex or UPS?

Because government has an unlimited amount of resources namely your and everyone else's money and private companies don't. Private companies have to actually pay their bills and can't just tax it's customers or print money.

So you admit that, over all, it would be CHEAPER for individuals and corporations, and cannot name a single reason why people should be willing to PAY MORE from the private insurance companies?

 

[Navy1960]

Hope and Change, well okay... let's just take a look at one of them shall we..

Van Jones. GREEN CZAR

He is an environmental advocate, a civil rights activist and attorney, and an author. Formerly based in Oakland, California, Jones is the president and founder of Green For All, a national NGO dedicated to "building an inclusive green economy strong enough to lift people out of poverty."[1] His first book, The Green Collar Economy, released on October 7, 2008, was a New York Times bestseller.[2] Jones also founded the Ella Baker Center for Human Rights, a California NGO working for alternatives to violence and incarceration.[3]

In the late 90s, Van Jones was involved in Standing Together to Organize a Revolutionary Movement (STORM), a multi-racial activist collective with Marxist influences. While never large, STORM was an influential group in the Bay Area, working with numerous organizations including Bay Area Police Watch, School of Unity and Liberation (SOUL), and People Organized to Win Employment Rights (POWER). Jones and STORM were also active in the anti Iraq War demonstrations of the early 2000’s.[c

"PROUD SAN FRANCISCO COMMUNIST WITH AN ARREST RECORD" Van Jones San Franciscio Examiner

." He vowed to "close the revolving door" and "clean up both ends of Pennsylvania Avenue" with "the most sweeping ethics reform in history." Barack Obama

“Too often the American people don’t know who Washington is working for, and when
they find out, they don’t like what they hear. . . . We’re not going to be able to change
America unless we challenge the culture that has dominated Washington for far too
long. And that means shining a bright light on how Washington works.”
[Speech in New Hampshire, 9/4/2007] Barack Obama

President Barack Obama said Monday that he was "absolutely" standing behind former Senator Tom Daschle, his nominee for health and human services secretary, and Daschle, who met late in the day with leading senators in an effort to keep his confirmation on track, said he had "no excuse" and wanted to "deeply apologize" for his failure to pay $128,000 in U.S. taxes
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/02/03/world/americas/03iht-03lobby.19884903.html

At the U.S. Department of Labor, Hilda Solis, Obama's Secretary of Labor, is moving rapidly to rescind Bush administration reforms that greatly strengthened reporting requirements that enable union members to see, via annual LM-2 reports, how their leaders are spending membership dues. In a recent Federal Register notice, Solis agreed with the preposterous assertion of Big Labor leaders that there was no proof members would benefit by knowing this financial information, and that compiling the report was too costly and time-consuming.
Obama's pals escape transparency rules | Washington Examiner

The list in the first 6 months is long and your starting to get the picture, Hope and Change was as I stated durng the campaign a marketing gimmick that all those that voted for Obama bought into. What I found really surprising is that people were under the impression that a sitting US Senator was supposed to represent change in Washington and now they are stuck with more of the same or a brand of change they didn't expect and now somehow surprised over this?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Tell you what, open a company that competes with any government program and tell me how it works out

Should I call it Fedex or UPS?

Yes the post office that is running a 7 billion dollar deficit in 2009 and that if it was a privately owned company would have been out of business years ago.

The post office costs us money even if we don't mail a letter. UPS and Fed Ex cost me nothing if I don't use their services.

See the difference?

Because government has an unlimited amount of resources namely your and everyone else's money and private companies don't. Private companies have to actually pay their bills and can't just tax it's customers or print money.

So you admit that, over all, it would be CHEAPER for individuals and corporations, and cannot name a single reason why people should be willing to PAY MORE from the private insurance companies?

It's not cheaper you idiot because who pays the taxes? Who suffers the consequences of inflation from the printing of money?

Do you actually believe that the taxes and surcharges the government is planning to charge businesses won't in the end be paid by you?

You think that because it's a tax rather than a bill you pay that the cost is somehow less?

Government cannot and has not ever done anything cheaper or more efficiently than the private sector.

 

[Zaphod]

Fair enough Navy1960... Now do you do that for the candidates and appointees with "R" next to their name too?
Could you provide such an evaluation of Bush appointees or are your interests purely partisan in nature and as such hypocritical and unpatriotic?

Favoring one party only encourages their party before country ideals and practices... Are you an enabler?

 

[Zaphod]

Yes the post office that is running a 7 billion dollar deficit in 2009 and that if it was a privately owned company would have been out of business years ago.

And really it's a poor comparison. Slinging packages is a lot less complicated than health insurance.

You wanted a privately held company that competes with a government service, and I gave you one! So if the privately held company is profitable and the government run service is losing money, How is that a bad example of the point you were trying to make again?

 

[Skull Pilot]

Yes the post office that is running a 7 billion dollar deficit in 2009 and that if it was a privately owned company would have been out of business years ago.

And really it's a poor comparison. Slinging packages is a lot less complicated than health insurance.

You wanted a privately held company that competes with a government service, and I gave you one! So if the privately held company is profitable and the government run service is losing money, How is that a bad example of the point you were trying to make again?

No I said for you to open a company that competes with the government and tell me how it goes.


And the fact that both UPS and Fed ex can do exactly what the post office does for less money and without a 7 billion dollar deficit in 2009 alone contradicts your assumption that government health insurance will be cheaper than private.

The fact that the post office would not still be in business if it was not propped up with tax dollars is still lost on you isn't it?

 

[Zaphod]

It's not cheaper you idiot because who pays the taxes?

I do.... How is the government spending MY money on my health care a handout? As I've said many times now, either way, corporations and their extreme profits and 40 million dollar men, or corrupt government, I'M PAYING FOR IT!
How is providing my employer MORE options BAD?

You think that because it's a tax rather than a bill you pay that the cost is somehow less?

no. Do you think that because it pays million dollar salaries it cost less for you? YOU said that the privately held corporations could not compete against government run services, I gave you examples of those that do.
WHY should I pay MORE to insurance companies that cannot compete??

Government cannot and has not ever done anything cheaper or more efficiently than the private sector.

Then they should be able to compete! NO PROBLEM!!!! What are you scared of?

 

[Zaphod]

No I said for you to open a company that competes with the government and tell me how it goes.

WOW.... ok so your point was not to say that the government run services could not be competed with...

RIGHT...

VERY honest of you indeed...

The fact that the post office would not still be in business if it was not propped up with tax dollars is still lost on you isn't it?

Like the point that the private corporations are profitable and competing with the government service is lost on you?
No. I get it, and think it proves my point nicely...

 

[Dr.House]

Why stop at healthcare?

Maybe Nanny Gubmint can pay my mortgage, electric bills, and buy me a new Prius every 4 years too...

Yes, Nanny Gubmint, the efficient, well oiled machine, has shown time and time again that they can do everything under budget and with my best interests in mind...

I can't wait until I get that new grey jumpsuit with the Ossiah logo on it... All hail the chosen one...

 

[Navy1960]

Fair enough Navy1960... Now do you do that for the candidates and appointees with "R" next to their name too?
Could you provide such an evaluation of Bush appointees or are your interests purely partisan in nature and as such hypocritical and unpatriotic?

Favoring one party only encourages their party before country ideals and practices... Are you an enabler?

Well as the Bush Administration is no longer in power I did not feel the need to take a retro-active look at it. However, I will say this, you would not have found me to be a supporter of the likes of Don Rumsfeld or any of his cadre that ran the DoD under Bush. Further , I have made no bones about he fact that I am a Republican, and not ashamed not admit it. However that does not mean I cannot look upon a candidate no matter who they are can see they have merit or are just plain not suited for the job. Let me give you another example with an R, Mark Sanford is a disgrace and should be honorable enough to resign his position and I would call upon him the same way I would call upon the like of John Murtha who in my mind has no honor to resign his. I could care less about what the R or D is after their names. My contention here is that in order to have real change , then the best way to do that is to CHANGE everyone in Washington and not just keep voting for the same people and hope they CHANGE, see what I mean?

 

[Skull Pilot]

It's not cheaper you idiot because who pays the taxes?

I do.... How is the government spending MY money on my health care a handout? As I've said many times now, either way, corporations and their extreme profits and 40 million dollar men, or corrupt government, I'M PAYING FOR IT!
How is providing my employer MORE options BAD?

You think that because it's a tax rather than a bill you pay that the cost is somehow less?

no. Do you think that because it pays million dollar salaries it cost less for you? YOU said that the privately held corporations could not compete against government run services, I gave you examples of those that do.
WHY should I pay MORE to insurance companies that cannot compete??

Government cannot and has not ever done anything cheaper or more efficiently than the private sector.

Then they should be able to compete! NO PROBLEM!!!! What are you scared of?

I gave you the reason why the post office is not out of business.

And government is not telling how much UPS and Fed Ex can charge for its services where Bella Pelosi herself said the government health plan will limit people's out of pocket expenses and increase the benefits insurance companies will pay. Tell me how can an insurance company compete when the government can tell it how much it can charge and thatn it cannot put a cap on payments?

Speaker Nancy Pelosi | Current Legislation

* No more co-pays or deductibles for preventive care
* No more rate increases for pre-existing conditions, gender, or occupation
* An annual cap on your out-of-pocket expenses
* Group rates of a national pool if you buy your own plan
* Guaranteed, affordable oral, hearing, and vision care for your kids

* No more coverage denials for pre-existing conditions
* No more lifetime limits on how much insurance companies will pay
* No reason to ever make a job or life decision again based on health care coverage

The government health plan language if applied to Fed Ex would read, you can only charge X dollars per package no matter if the package weighs 1 onuce or 100 pounds and no matter if it goes next door or overnight to Japan.

And if the post office provided that service without charging you but instead levied a tax to cover the cost would fed ex be in business next year?

Highly doubtful

Do you still call that competition?

 

[Meister]

The republicans could have all the answers in a bill(not that they do) but, the democrats wouldn't let it get beyond a meaningless piece of paper.

and where does this 'bill' exist, besides in the imaginations of the extremely partisan?

You seem to think that the democrats really care about the people..

ROTFLAMO and you base THAT assumption on???????


Just like the Republicans!!!! REALLY???? OHH NOOO!!!!!

Q: do you always base your posts on assumptions like this? I hope so, your ignorance is FUN!

Never said that they were! As a matter of FACT, I hate them both equally, and have stated so in this thread already.... but please GO ON!


Just like every other piece of legislation, like the Patriot act?

By the way you act like the republicans are the problem with this bill.

No, you really should READ... I blame the Republicans for not offering an alternative piece of legislation! This current proposal is all the Democrats!

When their own won't pass it, that should be a red flag for you that it is a sham.

Yup, that is the ONLY possible explanation for it!

I'm not a republican or a democrat, and I pretty much can't stand the government. They don't have my best interests at heart. But, where you and I differ is that I try to keep the government at a minimum. Your trying to portray that you don't like them either, but you want only the government on such a key issue as healthcare, one that will eventually help bankrupt our country. You blame the republican not to have an alternative....they do, but just like you the democrats dismiss it ....no matter how good it would be, they and YOU would dismiss it.
The real kicker on this is that nobody has addressed the massive fraud that will be going on, just like with welfare, medicare, medicaid, and social security. Do you know who's going to pay for that?

Just keep telling us that the dems have a better plan than the republicans.
I doubt you have a conservative bone in your pathetic body

 

[Zaphod]

Well as the Bush Administration is no longer in power I did not feel the need to take a retro-active look at it. However, I will say this, you would not have found me to be a supporter of the likes of Don Rumsfeld or any of his cadre that ran the DoD under Bush. Further , I have made no bones about he fact that I am a Republican, and not ashamed not admit it. However that does not mean I cannot look upon a candidate no matter who they are can see they have merit or are just plain not suited for the job. Let me give you another example with an R, Mark Sanford is a disgrace and should be honorable enough to resign his position and I would call upon him the same way I would call upon the like of John Murtha who in my mind has no honor to resign his. I could care less about what the R or D is after their names. My contention here is that in order to have real change , then the best way to do that is to CHANGE everyone in Washington and not just keep voting for the same people and hope they CHANGE, see what I mean?

I refuse to associate with either party, as they are both equally corrupt and self serving. Other than that, it seems we can agree!

 

[Zaphod]

But, where you and I differ is that I try to keep the government at a minimum.

So your ASSUMPTION here is that I want big government...
Because I'm arguing FOR the only proposal on the table to reform health care while I rail at the republicans for not offering an alternative plan! Right??? Now why would I care if the Republicans had an alternative or not, if I wanted the government to GROW?
Hmmmmmm
With just words or actual deeds? What was the last candidate you voted for that kept the government at a minimum?

You blame the republican not to have an alternative....they do, but just like you the democrats dismiss it ....no matter how good it would be, they and YOU would dismiss it.

So why even bother to DO THE JOB they are paid to do?!?!?!?!?!?! You can just sit back, BE LAZY, and say no one will listen to you anyway....
Putting politics BEFORE the country... how convenient... and typical...

The real kicker on this is that nobody has addressed the massive fraud that will be going on, just like with welfare, medicare, medicaid, and social security. Do you know who's going to pay for that?

The same people that fund every frickin thing the government does? DUH.....

Just keep telling us that the dems have a better plan than the republicans.

I didn't say that you dishonest fuck... I said they have A PLAN and asked where the Republican plan was! Why it was not proposed in legislation for debate!

I doubt you have a conservative bone in your pathetic body

I doubt you have an intelligent or honest one in yours...

 

[Zaphod]

Tell me how can an insurance company compete when the government can tell it how much it can charge and thatn it cannot put a cap on payments?

Guess they will have to cut CEO pay and not return such extraordinary profits at our expense for once! If the rules make it so that company X cannot make a profit, they should step aside and let others take that $$!

The whole concept of bringing insurance companies into the health care equation to 'lower costs' was moronic to begin with... <thanks Clintons> How does adding a second for profit entity LOWER costs????

The insurance companies pay lobbyists to further their agenda in DC, and this health care <obamacare MESS> is NOT it, so naturally the insurance companies HATE it, which to me, make me like it all that much more!
Insurance companies do NOT care one bit about you, me or anything else other than their profits, So if I were you, I'd not listen to them on the topic of your health care.

 

[Againsheila]

How about we just blow sunshine up your ass and chant "yes we can"
would that make you feel better?

Not any better than sitting around whining and crying like teen age drama queens... Both are equally useless! Congratulations! YOU are as useless as what you complain about!

Hey Fuck nut,

You have no idea what I do. How many letters have you written your no fucking good representatives in the last month?

How many town meetings have you gone to?

how many new political candidates have you helped?

On all counts i guarantee you've done less than me

So fuck off.

I quit writing to my representatives when it became obvious they weren't reading my letters....I kept getting form letters back on why they are in favor of the DREAM act when NONE of my letters had anything to do with the DREAM act.

I should have learned when Patty Murray answer my letter about clinton. "Of course what he did was wrong, but it wasn't worthy of removal" IOW, He's quilty as hell but I'm voting not guilty because I don't want him to be punished for his crimes.