Home demolitions on the increase

[Saigon]

They are lower than whale shit.

No, they aren't.

Most Israelis I have met (and I have met a lot) have been wonderful, educated, intelligent people. I know several who have voluntarily studied Arabic, and I'd say most I know believe in a free and independent Palestine.

Do not blame a people for what their government does, anymore than you would take responsibility for what George Bush did.

 

[Artevelde]

Israel is enforcing its laws in occupied territory.

Isn't that illegal?

As the state exercising sovereign control over these territories, Israel has the obligation to uphold laws there.

I honestly don't believe that is true - I don't believe it has any legal right to do anything at all in the West Bank.

So nothing should have been built or constructed there in the past 45 years? Admit that this is fairly ludicrous.

Being an occupying power entails certain rights as well as certain obligations.

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde -

It would be, but that isn't what I think.

What I think is that the Palestinian Authority are the only body who should be handing out permits to anything at all.

This also relates to citizenship - if Israel wants to annex the land and hand out passports, then they can also control housing permits. If not...then not.

 

[Artevelde]

Artevelde -

It would be, but that isn't what I think.

What I think is that the Palestinian Authority are the only body who should be handing out permits to anything at all.

This also relates to citizenship - if Israel wants to annex the land and hand out passports, then they can also control housing permits. If not...then not.

The PA is not an internationally recognized state. It is not a sovereign power.

What you propose bears no relation to the actual world and therefore is a recipe for complete lawlessness. That is not how an occupation is supposed to function under international law.

 

[Saigon]

That is not how an occupation is supposed to function under international law.

An occupation isn't supposed to function under international law.

 

[P F Tinmore]

As the state exercising sovereign control over these territories, Israel has the obligation to uphold laws there.

I honestly don't believe that is true - I don't believe it has any legal right to do anything at all in the West Bank.

So nothing should have been built or constructed there in the past 45 years? Admit that this is fairly ludicrous.

Being an occupying power entails certain rights as well as certain obligations.

Sure things should have been built but why do they need to get permits from foreigners (who very rarely ever issues permits to Palestinians) to build on their own land?

They could build much more without Israel.

 

[Artevelde]

That is not how an occupation is supposed to function under international law.

An occupation isn't supposed to function under international law.

That is ridiculous. So the populations of the countries living under occupation during a conflict are supposed to just live in total anarchy or just commit collective harakiri?

 

[P F Tinmore]

They are lower than whale shit.

No, they aren't.

Most Israelis I have met (and I have met a lot) have been wonderful, educated, intelligent people. I know several who have voluntarily studied Arabic, and I'd say most I know believe in a free and independent Palestine.

Do not blame a people for what their government does, anymore than you would take responsibility for what George Bush did.

It is true that most Israeli are normal people except when it come to the Palestinians. They don't believe that Palestinians deserve rights or justice. Very few refuse to do Israel's dirty work against the Palestinians.

They just want the Palestinians herded off someplace where they will not have to deal with them.

 

[Saigon]

They are lower than whale shit.

No, they aren't.

Most Israelis I have met (and I have met a lot) have been wonderful, educated, intelligent people. I know several who have voluntarily studied Arabic, and I'd say most I know believe in a free and independent Palestine.

Do not blame a people for what their government does, anymore than you would take responsibility for what George Bush did.

It is true that most Israeli are normal people except when it come to the Palestinians. They don't believe that Palestinians deserve rights or justice. Very few refuse to do Israel's dirty work against the Palestinians.

They just want the Palestinians herded of someplace where they will not have to deal with them.

I can only say that this isn't my experience.

I can imagine that perhaps 1/3 of Israelis genuinely hate Palestinians and would happily steal their land.

Another third a neutral, and might look the other way, but would prefer a more just settlement.

And another third respect Palestinian rights, and want to see a Palestinian state.

I don't think we can see "Israelis want..." any more than we can say "Americans want..."...there is just too much diversity of thought.

 

[Saigon]

That is not how an occupation is supposed to function under international law.

An occupation isn't supposed to function under international law.

That is ridiculous. So the populations of the countries living under occupation during a conflict are supposed to just live in total anarchy or just commit collective harakiri?

No, I don't recall saying that.

My feeling is that in a situation of illegal occupation of land, the legitimate power is not the occupier nor his puppets, but the genuine representatives of the occupied (if such a thing exists, as it does in the West Bank).

Thus I did not see Vichy as the legitimate government of France during WWII, nor the puppet administrations set up by the Nazis elsewhere.

 

[dilloduck]

Isreal thinks that since everyone hates them and "fires rockets" at them that nothing they do can make people hate them more. They are wrong and I hope they don't pay severely for it.

 

[Artevelde]

An occupation isn't supposed to function under international law.

That is ridiculous. So the populations of the countries living under occupation during a conflict are supposed to just live in total anarchy or just commit collective harakiri?

No, I don't recall saying that.

My feeling is that in a situation of illegal occupation of land, the legitimate power is not the occupier nor his puppets, but the genuine representatives of the occupied (if such a thing exists, as it does in the West Bank).

Thus I did not see Vichy as the legitimate government of France during WWII, nor the puppet administrations set up by the Nazis elsewhere.

So you believe that under German occupation in WWII the state should have completely shut down in those countries? Do you realize how inhuman that is? And also how completely contrary to international law that is? We should all simply have lived and starved in anarchy here in Belgium?

 

[Saigon]

Artevelde -

No, I don't recall saying that either!

It depends very much on whether the state can actually function under occupation, in the case of Palestine it largely can - issuing marriage licenses, passports and building permits, for instance. The extent to which local Palestinians may need to cooperate with Israel may be quite limited in some cases.

In the case of Vichy, obviously the Free French government could not operate in the Vichy territory, so the local people had no choice but to coperate with Vichy.

We have very different readings of international law, but I dare say both a fair point.

 

[Artevelde]

Artevelde -

No, I don't recall saying that either!

It depends very much on whether the state can actually function under occupation, in the case of Palestine it largely can - issuing marriage licenses, passports and building permits, for instance. The extent to which local Palestinians may need to cooperate with Israel may be quite limited in some cases.

In the case of Vichy, obviously the Free French government could not operate in the Vichy territory, so the local people had no choice but to coperate with Vichy.

We have very different readings of international law, but I dare say both a fair point.

You are talking nonsense.

First of all historical nonsense. You don't seem to realize that the Vichy regime exercised sovereign control only over the onuccupied part of France and over the French colonies. In occupied france obviously Germany exercised sovereign control and the regulations and laws of the occupying power were enforced and the state apparatus worked within the confines of the occupiers rules, as provided for by internatioonal law.

Secondly, current real world nonsense. There is NO Palestinian state. The West Bank is NOT an independent country and does not have independent state institutions. Sovereign control is exercised by Israel. The idea that the Palestinians can somehow choose to cooperate with Israel is laughable.

 

[P F Tinmore]

No, they aren't.

Most Israelis I have met (and I have met a lot) have been wonderful, educated, intelligent people. I know several who have voluntarily studied Arabic, and I'd say most I know believe in a free and independent Palestine.

Do not blame a people for what their government does, anymore than you would take responsibility for what George Bush did.

It is true that most Israeli are normal people except when it come to the Palestinians. They don't believe that Palestinians deserve rights or justice. Very few refuse to do Israel's dirty work against the Palestinians.

They just want the Palestinians herded of someplace where they will not have to deal with them.

I can only say that this isn't my experience.

I can imagine that perhaps 1/3 of Israelis genuinely hate Palestinians and would happily steal their land.

Another third a neutral, and might look the other way, but would prefer a more just settlement.

And another third respect Palestinian rights, and want to see a Palestinian state.

I don't think we can see "Israelis want..." any more than we can say "Americans want..."...there is just too much diversity of thought.

How many Israelis believe that the Palestinians have the right to return to their own land, homes, and farms?

 

[Saigon]

Arte -

I respect your opinions, but haven't changed my thinking about any of this.

There is a de facto Palestinian state - just not a nation state. But there is a government, and many of the institutions which characterise a state. There are police, a parliament and so forth.

Both Nagorno Karabakh and Transnistria are also de facto states - but not nation states.

Try visting Tiraspol or Stepanakert and you'll see what I mean!

 

[Saigon]

How many Israelis believe that the Palestinians have the right to return to their own land, homes, and farms?

That's a good question.

I can't answer it, but maybe Lipush can.

My guess would be that if you could offer the Israeli people a deal with limited right of return (say, 10,000 people per year for 10 years) as part of a total peace package, they would take it.

But as an unlimited number....no way.

 

[P F Tinmore]

How many Israelis believe that the Palestinians have the right to return to their own land, homes, and farms?

That's a good question.

I can't answer it, but maybe Lipush can.

My guess would be that if you could offer the Israeli people a deal with limited right of return (say, 10,000 people per year for 10 years) as part of a total peace package, they would take it.

But as an unlimited number....no way.

See what I mean. The Palestinians do not deserve rights.

 

[MJB12741]

Now THAT"S funny!

BBC reports this morning that the us of home demolitions by the IDF is increasing...

Reduced To Rubble

"Wood-fired barbecue was our speciality. Delicious," says Ramzi Kasiyah as he picks his way gingerly over a pile of rubble and twisted metal. Broken glass crackles under his feet.

"We had a beautiful terrace. Now I have nothing."

Up until a few weeks ago Ramzi was the proud owner of the Palestinian Al Mukhrur restaurant just outside Bethlehem in the occupied West Bank.

Now he presides over what looks like a bomb site, a grey scar in a beautiful, small valley, still lush from the winter's rains.

At the beginning of May, Israeli forces flattened the restaurant.

Ramzi shows me a mobile phone video of huge yellow diggers smashing through the roof, as he and his staff looked on helplessly

"12 years' work was gone in 5 minutes," he says.

BBC News - Palestinians see 'sharp increase' in demolitions

I have no problem at all with demoliting the home of a terrorist...but the concept of collective punishment and demolishing the homes of innocent people goes against all concepts of known justice. It does more to endanger Israel by creating terror than it does to ensure peace and security.

According to the BBC story the demolished restaurant was built illegaly, without a permit. In many countries it is common practice to demolish illegally constructed buildings. Happens in Belgium too.

Why do the Palestinians need to get permits from foreign assholes to build on their own land in their own country?

 

[Lipush]

If taking to mind that house demolishing is "illegal" and "immoral", what is your suggestion to the way we should deal with those who committe terrorism against innocent Israelis?

Terrorism is an Israeli, bullshit, propaganda term.

Israel destroys homes because they are assholes and they want to steal the land.

They are lower than whale shit.

[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JDAb2Gm6VCI]ISRAELI HOME DEMOLITION POLICY - YouTube[/ame]

Is this your way of avoiding my question?

Are you a terrorist sympathaizer?

Lately you seem to be unable to answer to the point.

You should do some self checking, btw, while we're at it. You use incorrect propagandic terms all the time. I learned to overlook that. Yet when I post FACTS who are not convinient for your biased views, you put the point on those instead of the point I'm trying to make.

It kinda grows old.

And btw, thanks for finally admitting you hate Israel. I kinda of got tired of the going around the bushes here. I am glad all cards are on the table.