Here's Everything You Need To Know About I.s.i.s

[Sunni Man]

The muslims in America didn't flock to the military recruiting offices after 9/11 because they knew the U.S. government was going down a path that would lead to failure in the Middle East. ......

 

[Derideo_Te]

The muslims in America didn't flock to the military recruiting offices after 9/11 because they knew the U.S. government was going down a path that would lead to failure in the Middle East. ......

All paths in the ME lead to failure!

We knew that before the previous admin went on a warmongering spree that kicked over the wasps nest.

Now we have to deal with the fallout.

ISIS is unlikely to succeed because it needs to grow if it is going to hold more territory otherwise it will be fighting against insurgencies in it's own territories if it cannot keep them suppressed. So right now it is at a stalemate. The next move will be to arm and train the locals to fight back against ISIS and we will only know how that turns out in about 6 months or so. The US won't be "bombing" as much as it will be providing air superiority and tactical strikes along with allies like France. So ISIS is no longer an expanding threat.

In many ways I suspect that ISIS was just a Wahabbist "stalking horse" to draw the US into a ground fight against Wahabbism. If that were to occur then it would justify their "crusade" because they could claim that the "great Satan" has come into their "holy lands" to fight them. As long as the US is not stupid enough to take that bait ISIS will be forced to try and escalate by taking the fight onto American soil. That threat is nowhere near as significant as the media makes it appear. The Australians just proved that by stomping on them before they could take any action. I have no doubt whatsoever the FBI is tracking them just as closely here in the USA.

So the smart move here is to let them destroy themselves and use the internet to undermine their beliefs. That strategy is more covert and and long range and we won't see much of it in the media because it doesn't "bleed". But it will be happening because winning a war is not just about fighting and killing. It is about knowing your enemy better than he knows himself and using his own "strengths" to defeat him. Wahabbism is a warlike cult and as such it preaches militancy as opposed to diplomacy. Showing ordinary rational Muslims the true horror of the atrocities committed by ISIS will turn them against such sects. No parent wants their child to be butchered or to become a butcher.

This long term strategy is what will ultimately push Wahabbism back into the fringes where it belongs in my opinion. The Pentagon has plenty of smart intelligent strategists who have probably been gaming this out for years now and will be putting it into covert action because they already know that the internet is a battle ground just like the media. You have to know how to fight on all fronts of every war if you are going to succeed and this is going to be by far the most important one in the future in my opinion. It is a combination of propaganda, intelligence, spying, attacking and defending all at once. What was once only physical is now replicated in cyber space. Sun Tzu would be grasping this weapon and exploiting it to it's fullest advantage.

 

[dilloduck]

Our mid east policy is not a failure. We have successfully destabilized Iraq and Libya and are in the process of succeeding in Syria and Lebanon. No one ever expected these countries to embrace democracy and lurch into the next century.

 

[EconChick]

As I was skimming, I happened to catch the last line of someone's post....I think it was Rik's.....that said, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."


And that folks, is at the heart of this debate I've had with my friends forever.

I think we should drill down into THAT discussion.

Because that is what we're really trying to figure out. I believe there is such a thing as moderate Muslims, and plenty of them. Of course you can drive an aircraft carrier through how wide the interpretation of the word, "moderate" is, but I'd like to see discussion of that.


Rik perhaps you can start with your definition of moderate and extreme so we can talk apples to apples.

 

[dilloduck]

Maybe the real question should be "are there any moderate Muslims who wield any power or influence ? ".

 

[Marianne]

This article is phenomenal. By far the most comprehensive and informative article ever written on ISIS without the filter of the main stream media.

Great read..

The War Nerd

Here's everything you need to know about ISIS.

THEY WANT TO GIVE YOU A CHOICE,CONVERT OR DIE.

 

[Derideo_Te]

As I was skimming, I happened to catch the last line of someone's post....I think it was Rik's.....that said, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."


And that folks, is at the heart of this debate I've had with my friends forever.

I think we should drill down into THAT discussion.

Because that is what we're really trying to figure out. I believe there is such a thing as moderate Muslims, and plenty of them. Of course you can drive an aircraft carrier through how wide the interpretation of the word, "moderate" is, but I'd like to see discussion of that.


Rik perhaps you can start with your definition of moderate and extreme so we can talk apples to apples.

By far the largest group of Muslims are moderates. They are not conspiring against the west. They are not sewing suicide vests. They are not even reading the verses in the Quaran that keep Pastor Rikurzhen awake all night long afraid that they will jump out from under his bed and cut off his head.

Instead they are just ordinary people with jobs, families and bills to pay. They probably care way more about how their kids are doing in school than they do about ISIS.

Only a fool makes an utterly absurd and baseless allegation that "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."

 

[Derideo_Te]

Just to make the point about the existence of moderate Muslims we have this report today from the BBC;

BBC News - Cape Town pro-gay mosque opens in South Africa

A Muslim academic has opened a gay-friendly mosque in South Africa, despite receiving death threats and fierce criticism from parts of the local Muslim community.

Women will be allowed to lead prayers at Taj Hargey's "Open Mosque" in Cape Town.

"We are opening the mosque for open-minded people, not closed-minded people," Mr Hargey told the BBC.

He says the mosque will help counter growing Islamic radicalism.

Mr Hargey, a professor at the Muslim Educational Centre of Oxford in the UK, told the BBC's Newsday programme it was time for a "religious revolution".

"In South Africa 20 years ago, there was a peaceful revolution changing from apartheid to democracy and we need to have a similar development in the area of religion," he said.

Gay Friendly Mosque Opens In Cape Town US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

Would that have even happened if there weren't any moderate Muslims to be found as Pastor Rikurzhen so falsely alleges?

 

[dilloduck]

Do we expect moderate Muslims to somehow reel in the radical ones ? Pretty silly don't you think ?

 

[Penelope]

What an interesting thread. As one poster said we need to shore up the boarder and we have urgent demands in Latin America, with the gangs that are coming into the US, we need to work with their governments. We have issues at home now, we can't be policing the globe,
I am glad to see US do something about the Ebola virus , that is a much bigger threat than ISIS now.

 

[EconChick]

As I was skimming, I happened to catch the last line of someone's post....I think it was Rik's.....that said, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."


And that folks, is at the heart of this debate I've had with my friends forever.

I think we should drill down into THAT discussion.

Because that is what we're really trying to figure out. I believe there is such a thing as moderate Muslims, and plenty of them. Of course you can drive an aircraft carrier through how wide the interpretation of the word, "moderate" is, but I'd like to see discussion of that.


Rik perhaps you can start with your definition of moderate and extreme so we can talk apples to apples.

By far the largest group of Muslims are moderates. They are not conspiring against the west. They are not sewing suicide vests. They are not even reading the verses in the Quaran that keep Pastor Rikurzhen awake all night long afraid that they will jump out from under his bed and cut off his head.

Instead they are just ordinary people with jobs, families and bills to pay. They probably care way more about how their kids are doing in school than they do about ISIS.

Only a fool makes an utterly absurd and baseless allegation that "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."

I hate to say this, and I'm being dead serious because this is a very dangerous situation....and because I have MANY Muslim friends...but I think it's more gray than that.

I'll give you another facet you need to look at.

When I was in Iraq over a span from the early days till the later days....one thing you could watch like clockwork is how the same people you knew (I should caveat SOME) in earlier days would change depending on whom they thought was winning.

That's not even a hit. I agreed with them when our policy, even under the Bush years, served to pull the rug out from under some of them.

There's a whole lot more to the equation than I hear people talk about on either side. But I just wanted to add that facet.....that it can have more to do with assessing who's going to win.

 

[Derideo_Te]

Do we expect moderate Muslims to somehow reel in the radical ones ? Pretty silly don't you think ?

The moderate Muslims need to marginalize the extremists. That doesn't mean that they "reel them in" but it does mean that they no longer allow them to dictate their violent beliefs and intimidate everyone else.

The extremist Christians in this nation are not allowed to dictate their agenda to the moderates because it infringes upon the rights of everyone. Same applies to Muslims. They have their own violent extremists and they need to be made to understand that the moderate majority will allow them their right to their beliefs but that they cannot impose them on everyone else.

Yes, that means grasping the concept of Freedom of Religion and that in turn means education. That is where the internet comes in. Communicating the ideas of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is universal. The mosque in South Africa is a classic example of how an idea becomes a reality. It puts into practice the concept that we are all equal. From there it spreads to other communities. This happens over time but once the seed is planted it will grow because you cannot kill an idea.

 

[dilloduck]

As I was skimming, I happened to catch the last line of someone's post....I think it was Rik's.....that said, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."


And that folks, is at the heart of this debate I've had with my friends forever.

I think we should drill down into THAT discussion.

Because that is what we're really trying to figure out. I believe there is such a thing as moderate Muslims, and plenty of them. Of course you can drive an aircraft carrier through how wide the interpretation of the word, "moderate" is, but I'd like to see discussion of that.


Rik perhaps you can start with your definition of moderate and extreme so we can talk apples to apples.

By far the largest group of Muslims are moderates. They are not conspiring against the west. They are not sewing suicide vests. They are not even reading the verses in the Quaran that keep Pastor Rikurzhen awake all night long afraid that they will jump out from under his bed and cut off his head.

Instead they are just ordinary people with jobs, families and bills to pay. They probably care way more about how their kids are doing in school than they do about ISIS.

Only a fool makes an utterly absurd and baseless allegation that "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."

I hate to say this, and I'm being dead serious because this is a very dangerous situation....and because I have MANY Muslim friends...but I think it's more gray than that.

I'll give you another facet you need to look at.

When I was in Iraq over a span from the early days till the later days....one thing you could watch like clockwork is how the same people you knew (I should caveat SOME) in earlier days would change depending on whom they thought was winning.

That's not even a hit. I agreed with them when our policy, even under the Bush years, served to pull the rug out from under some of them.

There's a whole lot more to the equation than I hear people talk about on either side. But I just wanted to add that facet.....that it can have more to do with assessing who's going to win.

And that's exactly what the fighters in Syria and Iraq are doing right now. Side with winning team---you have a better chance of living and also of getting paid.

 

[dilloduck]

Do we expect moderate Muslims to somehow reel in the radical ones ? Pretty silly don't you think ?

The moderate Muslims need to marginalize the extremists. That doesn't mean that they "reel them in" but it does mean that they no longer allow them to dictate their violent beliefs and intimidate everyone else.

The extremist Christians in this nation are not allowed to dictate their agenda to the moderates because it infringes upon the rights of everyone. Same applies to Muslims. They have their own violent extremists and they need to be made to understand that the moderate majority will allow them their right to their beliefs but that they cannot impose them on everyone else.

Yes, that means grasping the concept of Freedom of Religion and that in turn means education. That is where the internet comes in. Communicating the ideas of Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness is universal. The mosque in South Africa is a classic example of how an idea becomes a reality. It puts into practice the concept that we are all equal. From there it spreads to other communities. This happens over time but once the seed is planted it will grow because you cannot kill an idea.

Extremist Muslims kill anyone who tries to "marginalize" them. Moderates simply do not have the power to dictate anthing to ISIS for example.

 

[Iceweasel]

It would be nice if Islam could someday evolve past the Bronze Age.

 

[cereal_killer]

As I was skimming, I happened to catch the last line of someone's post....I think it was Rik's.....that said, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."


And that folks, is at the heart of this debate I've had with my friends forever.

I think we should drill down into THAT discussion.

Because that is what we're really trying to figure out. I believe there is such a thing as moderate Muslims, and plenty of them. Of course you can drive an aircraft carrier through how wide the interpretation of the word, "moderate" is, but I'd like to see discussion of that.


Rik perhaps you can start with your definition of moderate and extreme so we can talk apples to apples.

By far the largest group of Muslims are moderates. They are not conspiring against the west. They are not sewing suicide vests. They are not even reading the verses in the Quaran that keep Pastor Rikurzhen awake all night long afraid that they will jump out from under his bed and cut off his head.

Instead they are just ordinary people with jobs, families and bills to pay. They probably care way more about how their kids are doing in school than they do about ISIS.

Only a fool makes an utterly absurd and baseless allegation that "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."

Our best friends are Muslims (Husband and Wife) and they are the nicest people we have ever been around. We go out to dinner with them to expensive restaurants and they insists on always paying. I have to grab the check immediately because I know what they'll do They invite us to dinner and make homemade Moroccan food for us, they ALWAYS offer to help us out (drive to airport, pick up this or that if we need it), are genuinely interested in our lives etc. They are just really solid friends. During Ramadan we broke the fast with them at their home (after me and my girlfriend decided to try the fast for a day) and it was an amazing experience. It was like having Thanksgiving Dinner with family. No prayers, ceremonies or anything. Just a great dinner with friends.

I can count on one hand the friends that would literally give the shirt off their backs if we needed it and they are 2 of them. We could count on them for anything and vice versa.

There are plenty of spectacular Muslims out there. I'm sure my experience isn't rare.

 

[Derideo_Te]

As I was skimming, I happened to catch the last line of someone's post....I think it was Rik's.....that said, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."


And that folks, is at the heart of this debate I've had with my friends forever.

I think we should drill down into THAT discussion.

Because that is what we're really trying to figure out. I believe there is such a thing as moderate Muslims, and plenty of them. Of course you can drive an aircraft carrier through how wide the interpretation of the word, "moderate" is, but I'd like to see discussion of that.


Rik perhaps you can start with your definition of moderate and extreme so we can talk apples to apples.

By far the largest group of Muslims are moderates. They are not conspiring against the west. They are not sewing suicide vests. They are not even reading the verses in the Quaran that keep Pastor Rikurzhen awake all night long afraid that they will jump out from under his bed and cut off his head.

Instead they are just ordinary people with jobs, families and bills to pay. They probably care way more about how their kids are doing in school than they do about ISIS.

Only a fool makes an utterly absurd and baseless allegation that "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."

I hate to say this, and I'm being dead serious because this is a very dangerous situation....and because I have MANY Muslim friends...but I think it's more gray than that.

I'll give you another facet you need to look at.

When I was in Iraq over a span from the early days till the later days....one thing you could watch like clockwork is how the same people you knew (I should caveat SOME) in earlier days would change depending on whom they thought was winning.

That's not even a hit. I agreed with them when our policy, even under the Bush years, served to pull the rug out from under some of them.

There's a whole lot more to the equation than I hear people talk about on either side. But I just wanted to add that facet.....that it can have more to do with assessing who's going to win.

Yes, this is a very dangerous situation for those within the striking range of ISIS and yes, there are plenty of people who will go with the prevailing winds since that is easier than standing up and resisting. Not everyone is willing to die for their principles. That doesn't mean that they support ISIS, it just means that they will tolerate the oppression because it beats the alternative.

As far as ISIS reaching beyond where they currently are that is unlikely unless they get what they want which is US ground troops facing them in battle. I don't see that happening so ISIS's recruiting is unlikely to go beyond the extremists they already have on board.

ISIS is not going to be more than a regional threat and yes, it will be taken seriously because it is a threat to other nations in the region. ISIS only succeeded because there wasn't an effective government in either Syria or Iraq. Jordan, Iran, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are not going to roll over and allow ISIS to destroy them.

As far as your question is concerned as to who is going to win goes I think that the Kurds will be winners because they will carve out their own state and defend it against all comers. Same will probably apply to both the Shiia and Sunni in Iraq. They will end up with their own states too in my opinion. That leaves Syria which is still a tossup but I don't see ISIS prevailing there. They don't play nicely with others.

 

[NLT]

Sunni Man is a moderate Muslim, he just likes stirring the pot here on USMB to get all these libberiods pissed off.

 

[dilloduck]

As I was skimming, I happened to catch the last line of someone's post....I think it was Rik's.....that said, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."


And that folks, is at the heart of this debate I've had with my friends forever.

I think we should drill down into THAT discussion.

Because that is what we're really trying to figure out. I believe there is such a thing as moderate Muslims, and plenty of them. Of course you can drive an aircraft carrier through how wide the interpretation of the word, "moderate" is, but I'd like to see discussion of that.


Rik perhaps you can start with your definition of moderate and extreme so we can talk apples to apples.

By far the largest group of Muslims are moderates. They are not conspiring against the west. They are not sewing suicide vests. They are not even reading the verses in the Quaran that keep Pastor Rikurzhen awake all night long afraid that they will jump out from under his bed and cut off his head.

Instead they are just ordinary people with jobs, families and bills to pay. They probably care way more about how their kids are doing in school than they do about ISIS.

Only a fool makes an utterly absurd and baseless allegation that "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."

I hate to say this, and I'm being dead serious because this is a very dangerous situation....and because I have MANY Muslim friends...but I think it's more gray than that.

I'll give you another facet you need to look at.

When I was in Iraq over a span from the early days till the later days....one thing you could watch like clockwork is how the same people you knew (I should caveat SOME) in earlier days would change depending on whom they thought was winning.

That's not even a hit. I agreed with them when our policy, even under the Bush years, served to pull the rug out from under some of them.

There's a whole lot more to the equation than I hear people talk about on either side. But I just wanted to add that facet.....that it can have more to do with assessing who's going to win.

Yes, this is a very dangerous situation for those within the striking range of ISIS and yes, there are plenty of people who will go with the prevailing winds since that is easier than standing up and resisting. Not everyone is willing to die for their principles. That doesn't mean that they support ISIS, it just means that they will tolerate the oppression because it beats the alternative.

As far as ISIS reaching beyond where they currently are that is unlikely unless they get what they want which is US ground troops facing them in battle. I don't see that happening so ISIS's recruiting is unlikely to go beyond the extremists they already have on board.

ISIS is not going to be more than a regional threat and yes, it will be taken seriously because it is a threat to other nations in the region. ISIS only succeeded because there wasn't an effective government in either Syria or Iraq. Jordan, Iran, Turkey and Saudi Arabia are not going to roll over and allow ISIS to destroy them.

As far as your question is concerned as to who is going to win goes I think that the Kurds will be winners because they will carve out their own state and defend it against all comers. Same will probably apply to both the Shiia and Sunni in Iraq. They will end up with their own states too in my opinion. That leaves Syria which is still a tossup but I don't see ISIS prevailing there. They don't play nicely with others.

Syria has far more to worry about than ISIS. Obama wants Assad gone. That should destabilize the area plenty. Just like Iraq and Libya.

 

[Derideo_Te]

As I was skimming, I happened to catch the last line of someone's post....I think it was Rik's.....that said, "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."


And that folks, is at the heart of this debate I've had with my friends forever.

I think we should drill down into THAT discussion.

Because that is what we're really trying to figure out. I believe there is such a thing as moderate Muslims, and plenty of them. Of course you can drive an aircraft carrier through how wide the interpretation of the word, "moderate" is, but I'd like to see discussion of that.


Rik perhaps you can start with your definition of moderate and extreme so we can talk apples to apples.

By far the largest group of Muslims are moderates. They are not conspiring against the west. They are not sewing suicide vests. They are not even reading the verses in the Quaran that keep Pastor Rikurzhen awake all night long afraid that they will jump out from under his bed and cut off his head.

Instead they are just ordinary people with jobs, families and bills to pay. They probably care way more about how their kids are doing in school than they do about ISIS.

Only a fool makes an utterly absurd and baseless allegation that "there is no such thing as a moderate Muslim."

Our best friends are Muslims (Husband and Wife) and they are the nicest people we have ever been around. We go out to dinner with them to expensive restaurants and they insists on always paying. I have to grab the check immediately because I know what they'll do They invite us to dinner and make homemade Moroccan food for us, they ALWAYS offer to help us out (drive to airport, pick up this or that if we need it), are genuinely interested in our lives etc. They are just really solid friends. During Ramadan we broke the fast with them at their home (after me and my girlfriend decided to try the fast for a day) and it was an amazing experience. It was like having Thanksgiving Dinner with family. No prayers, ceremonies or anything. Just a great dinner with friends.

I can count on one hand the friends that would literally give the shirt off their backs if we needed it and they are 2 of them. We could count on them for anything and vice versa.

There are plenty of spectacular Muslims out there. I'm sure my experience isn't rare.

Your experience is typical in my opinion.

Yes, there are probably some who are a/holes but probably no more than in other population. I have neighbors who run the gamut with a Sikh on one side and a Hindu on the other. The diversity is awesome because the kids are all alike. They don't see any differences. They play together and ride bikes and go to each other's birthday parties. To them this is all just normal. That is the way it should be and will be when they are adults.