Here's Everything You Need To Know About I.s.i.s

[Sunni Man]

Here is a totally novel idea:

The U.S. and the other western nations need to pull out of Iraq and let the people there fight it out to determine their own destiny. ....

 

[cereal_killer]

Here is a totally novel idea:

The U.S. and the other western nations need to pull out of Iraq and let the people there fight it out to determine their own destiny. ....

and give up control of all that oil? Certainly you jest



*sense the sarcasm*

 

[Sunni Man]

Here is a really good article concerning the ISIL and the western nations.

The Islamic State threat is overstated - The Washington Post

 

[BullKurtz]

Here is a totally novel idea:

The U.S. and the other western nations need to pull out of Iraq and let the people there fight it out to determine their own destiny. ....

and give up control of all that oil? Certainly you jest



*sense the sarcasm*

Iraq's OIL is going mostly to China....so much for that excuse.....

 

[Derideo_Te]

Here is a really good article concerning the ISIL and the western nations.

The Islamic State threat is overstated - The Washington Post

I tend to agree, an oversized bunch of militant extremists is not the same thing as an entire nation. They don't deserve the promotion to "statehood" that they have given themselves.

 

[cereal_killer]

Here is a totally novel idea:

The U.S. and the other western nations need to pull out of Iraq and let the people there fight it out to determine their own destiny. ....

and give up control of all that oil? Certainly you jest



*sense the sarcasm*

Iraq's OIL is going mostly to China....so much for that excuse.....

I guess I didn't realize China was getting that oil for FREE. I missed that part.

 

[BullKurtz]

BTW, I hold no desire to see American Troopers once again clearing Tikrit and Fallujah of IS dirtbags. Our presence should only involve air-cover for Iraqi and Kurd fighters and some wet-work boys to take out IS communication capacity. And of course enough helo presence to pick up pilots who get bounced by shoulder-fired missles. Watch the Iraqis stand up on their back legs once they know the Americans are watching again....they ain't cowards....their commanders abandoned them.

 

[BullKurtz]

Here is a totally novel idea:

The U.S. and the other western nations need to pull out of Iraq and let the people there fight it out to determine their own destiny. ....

and give up control of all that oil? Certainly you jest



*sense the sarcasm*

Iraq's OIL is going mostly to China....so much for that excuse.....

I guess I didn't realize China was getting that oil for FREE. I missed that part.

Of course China ain't getting it for free......I thought you implied Cheney and Haliburton are swimming in it is all.

 

[cereal_killer]

BTW, I hold no desire to see American Troopers once again clearing Tikrit and Fallujah of IS dirtbags. Our presence should only involve air-cover for Iraqi and Kurd fighters and some wet-work boys to take out IS communication capacity. And of course enough helo presence to pick up pilots who get bounced by shoulder-fired missles. Watch the Iraqis stand up on their back legs once they know the Americans are watching again....they ain't cowards....their commanders abandoned them.

Iraqi's are pretty useless and undisciplined. The Kurdish Peshmerga will take it to them. They are some bad ass fierce troopers who will be unstoppable with US air support. I have some spec ops friends who fought alongside with these guys and they have nothing but great things to say about them.

Here is a totally novel idea:

The U.S. and the other western nations need to pull out of Iraq and let the people there fight it out to determine their own destiny. ....

and give up control of all that oil? Certainly you jest



*sense the sarcasm*

Iraq's OIL is going mostly to China....so much for that excuse.....

I guess I didn't realize China was getting that oil for FREE. I missed that part.

Of course China ain't getting it for free......I thought you implied Cheney and Haliburton are swimming in it is all.

You think I'm a hack or something Don't answer that!!!

 

[BullKurtz]

BTW, I hold no desire to see American Troopers once again clearing Tikrit and Fallujah of IS dirtbags. Our presence should only involve air-cover for Iraqi and Kurd fighters and some wet-work boys to take out IS communication capacity. And of course enough helo presence to pick up pilots who get bounced by shoulder-fired missles. Watch the Iraqis stand up on their back legs once they know the Americans are watching again....they ain't cowards....their commanders abandoned them.

Iraqi's are pretty useless and undisciplined. The Kurdish Peshmerga will take it to them. They are some bad ass fierce troopers who will be unstoppable with US air support. I have some spec ops friends who fought alongside with these guys and they have nothing but great things to say about them.

Here is a totally novel idea:

The U.S. and the other western nations need to pull out of Iraq and let the people there fight it out to determine their own destiny. ....

and give up control of all that oil? Certainly you jest



*sense the sarcasm*

Iraq's OIL is going mostly to China....so much for that excuse.....

I guess I didn't realize China was getting that oil for FREE. I missed that part.

Of course China ain't getting it for free......I thought you implied Cheney and Haliburton are swimming in it is all.

You think I'm a hack or something Don't answer that!!!

 

[flacaltenn]

Here is a totally novel idea:

The U.S. and the other western nations need to pull out of Iraq and let the people there fight it out to determine their own destiny. ....

Now there's a clue for Clueless American Policy experts. The concept of ELECTIONS and debate and peaceful regime change is a NO SALE in the entire region.. "Fight it out" is the way it's gonna be done. There is a term in psychology called "co-dependency" where a person values their own worth on the trajectory of another life. We should seek counseling and realize that the region needs to hit rock bottom before they would even consider "our way" of organizing a society. They NEED powerful and despotic leadership.. Because it's all about "fighting it out".. We shouldn't stoop to their level. And we've tried to convert them.

 

[flacaltenn]

Which BTW is the reason that buffoons like Kerry are so ineffective in formulating policy.. The dude still thinks that rotating key offices in the Iraq government is important to the outcome. And that Assad doesn't deserve to rule Syria. What's important to the Arabs is the fighting and dying, and we ought to let them do MORE of that -- unhindered and unaided..

ISIS is ONE of a DOZEN gangs involved. It's just LA street fights in a larger theatre.

 

[Rikurzhen]

The way to defeat ISIS is to not only take away their guns but also their beliefs.

And you still deny that Liberalism is a religion. What you're proposing here is the old-time missionary model of conversion - take away the beliefs of the savages and turn them into good, god-fearin', church goin' people but now you want to impose your liberal religion onto them.

Take away their beliefs. For Pete's sake. People in the West hate you liberals for this very mindset and you're a good part of the reason that the non-West hates the West so much, with your efforts to impose love of homosexuals onto cultures that condemn homosexuality. Those people think it's the West, as a whole, that is pushing this "conversion" on them, not just religious liberals.

And you do that by providing the oppressed with the power to express their own voices and alternative beliefs. You empower the oppressed by making them aware that they are not alone but are actually the majority. They have a right to be free of oppression and intimidation

More faith-based wishful thinking. It's a tenet of faith with liberals that people will flock to their religion if only given a choice.

What you propose entails an actual war against Islam and that's one Rubicon that people don't want to cross. Secondly, substituting the religion of Liberalism isn't much of an improvement over the religion of Islam. Certainly not worth fighting a religious war against Islam to bring about.

The quickest and easiest way to make that happen is to provide them with access to the internet and to use that as the means to show how other Muslims are living in peace and prosperity without oppression and intimidation.

You are so deep in your religious bubble, it's sad to behold. They have the internet in the Middle East. They see what life in the West is like. They're repulsed by much of what they see. Do you comprehend that? They don't want it. They actually fight against it. They see the oppression and intimidation that the Religion of Liberalism imposes on people. They see the CEO of Mozilla driven from his job because he has the normal view that only a man and a woman qualify to be married. They see what is taking place here in the West and they don't want to follow that path.

Yes, they have their own culture and that is not going to change but they are just as human as we are and motivated by the same desires for life, liberty and pursuit of happiness.

Another article of faith contradicted by evidence. You're just as bad as a religious creationist. What happened when these people could exercise their liberty via voting? They elected Hamas and the Muslim Brotherhood to power to make them even more Islamic in governance. How do they measure happiness? By opening gay bars? No, by strengthening their adherence to Islamic values. Their desire for life is expressed by having large families and outlawing abortion. They have the world's highest rate of intact families where children are raised by 2 parents. They look at the growth of single parent families in the West and they are horrified. They don't see this as liberty or happiness.

The solution here is to beat the concept of oppression with the ideas of liberty, freedom and the rights of all mankind. You cannot kill an idea, good or bad, but when the children of the Middle East learn of the good ideas of freedom and liberty they will want them just as we do rather than the bad ideas of oppression.

As with all faiths, of course you believe that yours is the best choice. What you fail to understand is that Islam offers an alternative vision of how to construct a society. It's not just a religion which deals with the spiritual, it's a religious parallel to Liberalism in that is covers law and governance as well as the spiritual. They reject what they see in the West, how the religion of Liberalism has affected the West. They believe that they have a better way forward, forward by appealing to the past.

Your idea of launching a religious war and forcibly converting people to your religion is nonsensical.

 

[Rikurzhen]

BTW, I hold no desire to see American Troopers once again clearing Tikrit and Fallujah of IS dirtbags. Our presence should only involve air-cover for Iraqi and Kurd fighters and some wet-work boys to take out IS communication capacity. And of course enough helo presence to pick up pilots who get bounced by shoulder-fired missles. Watch the Iraqis stand up on their back legs once they know the Americans are watching again....they ain't cowards....their commanders abandoned them.

Iraqi's are pretty useless and undisciplined. The Kurdish Peshmerga will take it to them. They are some bad ass fierce troopers who will be unstoppable with US air support. I have some spec ops friends who fought alongside with these guys and they have nothing but great things to say about them.

When a people are unified by both blood and culture, they will fight fiercely to protect both. It's an open question as to whether the Peshmerga will go to Syria to fight ISIS and lay down their lives for a cause that is not directly intersectign with Kurdish interests. If we pay high enough to attract them as soldiers of fortune, they might do the minimum needed just for the paycheck, but the quality of fighting will be different "over there" compared to what is seen on their own beloved land.

and give up control of all that oil? Certainly you jest

No one sells their oil just to be a nice guy or because they are friends with America. We need their oil on the world market and they need our cash in order to keep their people eating and driving their cars with subsidized gas prices. None of these countries can really just shut off the oil spigots and continue existing - like a junkie, they need oil revenues to function.

 

[BullKurtz]

BTW, I hold no desire to see American Troopers once again clearing Tikrit and Fallujah of IS dirtbags. Our presence should only involve air-cover for Iraqi and Kurd fighters and some wet-work boys to take out IS communication capacity. And of course enough helo presence to pick up pilots who get bounced by shoulder-fired missles. Watch the Iraqis stand up on their back legs once they know the Americans are watching again....they ain't cowards....their commanders abandoned them.

Iraqi's are pretty useless and undisciplined. The Kurdish Peshmerga will take it to them. They are some bad ass fierce troopers who will be unstoppable with US air support. I have some spec ops friends who fought alongside with these guys and they have nothing but great things to say about them.

When a people are unified by both blood and culture, they will fight fiercely to protect both. It's an open question as to whether the Peshmerga will go to Syria to fight ISIS and lay down their lives for a cause that is not directly intersectign with Kurdish interests. If we pay high enough to attract them as soldiers of fortune, they might do the minimum needed just for the paycheck, but the quality of fighting will be different "over there" compared to what is seen on their own beloved land.

and give up control of all that oil? Certainly you jest

No one sells their oil just to be a nice guy or because they are friends with America. We need their oil on the world market and they need our cash in order to keep their people eating and driving their cars with subsidized gas prices. None of these countries can really just shut off the oil spigots and continue existing - like a junkie, they need oil revenues to function.

Have you ever been in a combat theatre? If not, why are you lecturing about the will to fight "fiercely" or otherwise? Neither I or anybody else has suggested the Kurds fight in Syria...they have limited numbers and resources. And again, if you know or have known mercs, enlighten us about what they cost.

 

[Foxfyre]

I notice that ISIS, mostly Sunni, hasn't taken more land for awhile now. The areas they have taken have been mostly Sunni strongholds that wouldn't put up a lot of resistance against other Sunni. Some experts I've read and heard suggest that ISIS has probably gained as much ground as they're going to because from this point they'll be facing Shia fighters who won't wish to give in to them under any terms. Probably all we need to do, if we are going to be involved at all, is just help the Shia hold their ground for now by providing a little air cover and provide the Iraqi military with sufficient arms.

Having said that, I just don't see the benefit in losing one more American life to what is apparently a lost cause and there are likely better ways to use the money to benefit humankind.

 

[EconChick]

Great posts. Holy crap, this is harder work than actual course work to keep up with! I feel like I need two hours to read before I can even respond, LOL!

Rik, I have done some skimming of most posts, and you make great points in those where you're responding to me. Not complete agreement but a lot of good things to debate.


One other thing, is it just my ineptness, or do others have a problem figuring out which posts people are agreeing with when using the green checkmark? I haven't figured that out on this new system. I never know which posts people are agreeing to.

 

[Vigilante]

 

[Rikurzhen]

BTW, I hold no desire to see American Troopers once again clearing Tikrit and Fallujah of IS dirtbags. Our presence should only involve air-cover for Iraqi and Kurd fighters and some wet-work boys to take out IS communication capacity. And of course enough helo presence to pick up pilots who get bounced by shoulder-fired missles. Watch the Iraqis stand up on their back legs once they know the Americans are watching again....they ain't cowards....their commanders abandoned them.

Iraqi's are pretty useless and undisciplined. The Kurdish Peshmerga will take it to them. They are some bad ass fierce troopers who will be unstoppable with US air support. I have some spec ops friends who fought alongside with these guys and they have nothing but great things to say about them.

When a people are unified by both blood and culture, they will fight fiercely to protect both. It's an open question as to whether the Peshmerga will go to Syria to fight ISIS and lay down their lives for a cause that is not directly intersectign with Kurdish interests. If we pay high enough to attract them as soldiers of fortune, they might do the minimum needed just for the paycheck, but the quality of fighting will be different "over there" compared to what is seen on their own beloved land.

and give up control of all that oil? Certainly you jest

No one sells their oil just to be a nice guy or because they are friends with America. We need their oil on the world market and they need our cash in order to keep their people eating and driving their cars with subsidized gas prices. None of these countries can really just shut off the oil spigots and continue existing - like a junkie, they need oil revenues to function.

Have you ever been in a combat theatre? If not, why are you lecturing about the will to fight "fiercely" or otherwise? Neither I or anybody else has suggested the Kurds fight in Syria...they have limited numbers and resources. And again, if you know or have known mercs, enlighten us about what they cost.

I've seen the aftermath of combat in Africa. The wounded, the butchered, the dead. Does that put me close enough to war to understand it? I've seen and talked with tribal fighters. Most importantly though, I understand how cultures and people work. I'm extrapolating what I know from my experiences in Africa to similar tribal-based societies in the Middle East. The leap here is not as large as the leap between Western-based social models and Middle-East based tribal models.

 

[BullKurtz]

BTW, I hold no desire to see American Troopers once again clearing Tikrit and Fallujah of IS dirtbags. Our presence should only involve air-cover for Iraqi and Kurd fighters and some wet-work boys to take out IS communication capacity. And of course enough helo presence to pick up pilots who get bounced by shoulder-fired missles. Watch the Iraqis stand up on their back legs once they know the Americans are watching again....they ain't cowards....their commanders abandoned them.

Iraqi's are pretty useless and undisciplined. The Kurdish Peshmerga will take it to them. They are some bad ass fierce troopers who will be unstoppable with US air support. I have some spec ops friends who fought alongside with these guys and they have nothing but great things to say about them.

When a people are unified by both blood and culture, they will fight fiercely to protect both. It's an open question as to whether the Peshmerga will go to Syria to fight ISIS and lay down their lives for a cause that is not directly intersectign with Kurdish interests. If we pay high enough to attract them as soldiers of fortune, they might do the minimum needed just for the paycheck, but the quality of fighting will be different "over there" compared to what is seen on their own beloved land.

and give up control of all that oil? Certainly you jest

No one sells their oil just to be a nice guy or because they are friends with America. We need their oil on the world market and they need our cash in order to keep their people eating and driving their cars with subsidized gas prices. None of these countries can really just shut off the oil spigots and continue existing - like a junkie, they need oil revenues to function.

Have you ever been in a combat theatre? If not, why are you lecturing about the will to fight "fiercely" or otherwise? Neither I or anybody else has suggested the Kurds fight in Syria...they have limited numbers and resources. And again, if you know or have known mercs, enlighten us about what they cost.

I've seen the aftermath of combat in Africa. The wounded, the butchered, the dead. Does that put me close enough to war to understand it? I've seen and talked with tribal fighters. Most importantly though, I understand how cultures and people work. I'm extrapolating what I know from my experiences in Africa to similar tribal-based societies in the Middle East. The leap here is not as large as the leap between Western-based social models and Middle-East based tribal models.

Nope, you can see the aftermath of combat in any big city ER on a Saturday night. The sunni tribal traditions are much different than Africans. They hate shia for their differences in philosophy resulting in pretty much unabated warfare for centuries. In fact, it was the fear of shia militias that led to the sunni tribes welcoming in ISIL earlier this year. But the sunnis are more tolerant in their versions of sharia law than al-Qaida or ISIL and will again rise up and throw them out when they've had enough of it, same as they did for Gen. Petraeus ie "The Awakening" Sons of Iraq.

"I come in peace, I didn't bring artillery. But I am pleading with you with tears in my eyes: If you fuck with me, I'll kill you all."
Marine General James Mattis,to Iraqi tribal leaders