Health Care Is A Right Not a Privilege!

[dblack]

You have crossed over to a republic versus democracy. Then you ventured into socialism.

Eh? Care to elaborate?

No need to taint your research. Just look up the definitions of democracy and republic. Note the differences.

I know what the words mean. I was just wondering what you meant. Now I'm not.

 

[Listening]

Health care is still not a right.

 

[percysunshine]

Health care is still not a right.

It is, and always has been, a personal responsibility that ends when a person dies.

This stuff is not rocket science.

 

[Big Fitz]

If healthcare is a right, so is slavery.

You cannot demand of someone to fill a need that you have at their expense. That is called theft. If they must provide for this need from anyone who demands it, they have been enslaved to the demands of others, for they cannot refuse.

Health care is a commodity to be traded and paid for. To say otherwise is to deny it's very nature as a service and product that must come from somewhere.

I suppose the only right to free health care is that which you can do for yourself, to yourself, with no training, materials or space to do it in save what you have provided for yourself alone.

 

[Greenbeard]

If healthcare is a right, so is slavery.

You cannot demand of someone to fill a need that you have at their expense. That is called theft. If they must provide for this need from anyone who demands it, they have been enslaved to the demands of others, for they cannot refuse.

Have ER personnel been slaves for the past quarter century?

 

[Big Fitz]

If healthcare is a right, so is slavery.

You cannot demand of someone to fill a need that you have at their expense. That is called theft. If they must provide for this need from anyone who demands it, they have been enslaved to the demands of others, for they cannot refuse.

Have ER personnel been slaves for the past quarter century?

So ER personnel aren't paid now? Reading comprehension failure much?

I stated specifically that if you demand a need be filled without compensating them, it is the same as slavery.

ER Personnel have a shitty job that apparently they love AND pays well enough to attract lots of people to the job. So let's be honest here, they aren't slaves... yet. But the instant they have to provide care without compensation for themselves (and if the hospital doesn't get paid, they don't get paid) or they don't feel they are being justly compensated they will leave the profession. Then, when you have a mass exodus of medical professionals, how are you going to get care? Force them to work at gunpoint?

That is why when you get down to it with this "healthcare is a right" bullshit, you endorse slavery.

 

[Greenbeard]

So ER personnel aren't paid now? Reading comprehension failure much?

I stated specifically that if you demand a need be filled without compensating them, it is the same as slavery.

Of course they're paid. But they're also required to provide care without regard for the patient's ability to pay in certain circumstances (for now--I realize the House leadership is working on undermining that requirement), meaning they do provide a great deal of uncompensated care. Granted, that's a larger problem for the greater institution they serve but you get my point.

If you're suggesting they're only slaves if they get paid nothing by anyone, not that they're mandated to provide some set of services for which they're not compensated, then rest assured: there's no realistic scenario (even theoretical) in which that would happen. On the other hand, if you're defining "slavery" to mean they have to provide some services without an expectation of compensation--well, that's been the case for quite some time. So I'll ask again: are they slaves?

 

[Big Fitz]

Uncompensated care happens. That's part of why the cost of health care is so high so they can cover the losses created by defaults in the payment process. Simple fact of life.

Now, if you sit there and say, well health care is a right and should be provided at no cost to EVERYONE, well, that's just stupid for starters. Who'd work for a job where they couldn't get paid (for how would the hospital pay them), and paid well when the cost of training is extremely difficult and long? (this isn't flipping burgers here) Nobody. Who's going to manufacture drugs given away for free? Nobody. Who's going to build a surgical ward if they can't be paid for the work? Nobody.

So where are you going to get doctors, medical supplies and places to practice medicine? Are you going to use force to get them into service? Congrats, you just restarted slavery without the little deflections that make all the more palatable.

 

[Greenbeard]

Now, if you sit there and say, well health care is a right and should be provided at no cost to EVERYONE, well, that's just stupid for starters. Who'd work for a job where they couldn't get paid (for how would the hospital pay them), and paid well when the cost of training is extremely difficult and long? (this isn't flipping burgers here) Nobody. Who's going to manufacture drugs given away for free? Nobody. Who's going to build a surgical ward if they can't be paid for the work? Nobody.

This thread is about a Bernie Sanders op-ed and he hasn't suggested anything like that. He obviously favors single-payer, though his own bill is interesting in that it follows a Medicaid-like model (not a Medicare model) in which individual states retain control and responsibility for a state-specific program with some degree of flexibility.

But he doesn't suggest that no one pays for it (he primarily favors a mix of taxes on income and wages to fund his legislation) and he doesn't suggest that providers not be paid for their services.

So I don't know what you're arguing against.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Health Care Is A Right Not a Privilege!

Let's be clear. Our health care system is disintegrating. Today, 46 million people have no health insurance and even more are underinsured with high deductibles and co-payments. At a time when 60 million people, including many with insurance, do not have access to a medical home, more than 18,000 Americans die every year from preventable illnesses because they do not get to the doctor when they should. This is six times the number who died at the tragedy of 9/11 - but this occurs every year.

In the midst of this horrendous lack of coverage, the U.S. spends far more per capita on health care than any other nation - and health care costs continue to soar. At $2.4 trillion dollars, and 18 percent of our GDP, the skyrocketing cost of health care in this country is unsustainable both from a personal and macro-economic perspective.

Sen. Bernie Sanders: Health Care Is a Right, Not a Privilege

18,000 deaths a year? In 2009 2,437,163 people died. If your satatisitic is accurate you are worried about a little over 0.7% of the deaths every year. Twice as many people commit suicide as die from your preventable illnesses, yet you don't seem to be worried about them. Is that because you don't really care about people?

By the way, a lack of health insurance does not mean a lack of health care. Requiring people to buy insurance is going to make access to health care harder, not easier.

 

[Big Fitz]

Now, if you sit there and say, well health care is a right and should be provided at no cost to EVERYONE, well, that's just stupid for starters. Who'd work for a job where they couldn't get paid (for how would the hospital pay them), and paid well when the cost of training is extremely difficult and long? (this isn't flipping burgers here) Nobody. Who's going to manufacture drugs given away for free? Nobody. Who's going to build a surgical ward if they can't be paid for the work? Nobody.

This thread is about a Bernie Sanders op-ed and he hasn't suggested anything like that. He obviously favors single-payer, though his own bill is interesting in that it follows a Medicaid-like model (not a Medicare model) in which individual states retain control and responsibility for a state-specific program with some degree of flexibility.

But he doesn't suggest that no one pays for it (he primarily favors a mix of taxes on income and wages to fund his legislation) and he doesn't suggest that providers not be paid for their services.

So I don't know what you're arguing against.

What am I arguing against? The very idea that healthcare of is an inalienable human right. It is not. It is a function of trade and the market with value and must be compensated fairly. This marxist 'each according to their need from each according to their ability' bullshit needs to get exposed for the evil it is.

 

[saveliberty]

Greenbeard didn't like the discussion, so he thought he would just reframe it. Typical liberal crap.

 

[Big Fitz]

Greenbeard didn't like the discussion, so he thought he would just reframe it. Typical liberal crap.

I thought that hump on the back of his neck looked like his ass.

 

[Greenbeard]

It is a function of trade and the market with value and must be compensated fairly.

No kidding. Those who make the "rights" argument, clumsy as it is, obviously concede that. Their proposals invariably do not take an EMTALA-esque approach in which care must be provided to everyone willy nilly without regard for ability to pay or provider compensation (as you seem to enjoy implying), most of them simply want a basic slate of services paid for via public insurance. Reimbursement structures are generally addressed in great detail in their various proposals. I'm sure others are fine with near-universal multi-payer private coverage, with its multitude of different reimbursement structures.

Your caricatures and absurd slavery analogies have very little to do with that they're arguing.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

It is a function of trade and the market with value and must be compensated fairly.

No kidding. Those who make the "rights" argument, clumsy as it is, obviously concede that. Their proposals invariably do not take an EMTALA-esque approach in which care must be provided to everyone willy nilly without regard for ability to pay or provider compensation (as you seem to enjoy implying), most of them simply want a basic slate of services paid for via public insurance. Reimbursement structures are generally addressed in great detail in their various proposals. I'm sure others are fine with near-universal multi-payer private coverage, with its multitude of different reimbursement structures.

Your caricatures and absurd slavery analogies have very little to do with that they're arguing.

I bet I can find some otherwise intelligent people who would be happy to argue that complete access to all available health care is a right and that it should be provided regardless of ability to pay. Your transparent attempt to argue that those people don't exist, or that they do not actually mean what they say, just proves that you are not arguing from a position based on reality, you prefer to live in a dream world where your stupid ideas actually work despite the fact that idiots will be in charge of them.

 

[Cecilie1200]

It is a function of trade and the market with value and must be compensated fairly.

No kidding. Those who make the "rights" argument, clumsy as it is, obviously concede that. Their proposals invariably do not take an EMTALA-esque approach in which care must be provided to everyone willy nilly without regard for ability to pay or provider compensation (as you seem to enjoy implying), most of them simply want a basic slate of services paid for via public insurance. Reimbursement structures are generally addressed in great detail in their various proposals. I'm sure others are fine with near-universal multi-payer private coverage, with its multitude of different reimbursement structures.

Your caricatures and absurd slavery analogies have very little to do with that they're arguing.

No attempt to make it sound reasonable is going to make the belief that one private individual is obligated to provide a product and service to another private individual, under the force of government intervention, anything other than slavery. "Just a little slavery" is not an improvement.

 

[Big Fitz]

ANd here are two articles to illustrate the problem he denies will happen. Doctors will quit and students will not go into the profession, causing a shortage of health care providers. What will you do then as the lines grow longer from increased "free" usage and the system quickly is overwhelmed? Draft doctors back in? You won't have the money to pay them proper and that means forcing them in some means to take up the extra freight or let those waiting on the list to wither and get worse before they can see a doctor... you know... like they already do in britain and every other socialized medicine system in the world.


http://www.firstthings.com/blogs/secondhandsmoke/2010/12/11/obamacare-study-finds-40-of-doctors-may-quit/


http://www.humanevents.com/article.php?id=45252


Unintended consequences still happen, and they cannot just be 'swept under the rug' as an inconvenient side effect.

 

[Listening]

I bet I can find some otherwise intelligent people who would be happy to argue that complete access to all available health care is a right and that it should be provided regardless of ability to pay. Your transparent attempt to argue that those people don't exist, or that they do not actually mean what they say, just proves that you are not arguing from a position based on reality, you prefer to live in a dream world where your stupid ideas actually work despite the fact that idiots will be in charge of them.

Methinks I can recall our current President saying it was a right.

Now, that does not qualify him as intelligent....just sayin'.

 

[Listening]

Calling it a right....or attempting to qualify it as one opens up all kinds of opportunities.

The Kansas state senate just passed a "resistance" bill to Obamacare. One RINO senator voted against it saying he knows the SCOTUS will hold up Obamacare (wonder what else he "knows" ?...or why we even bother with the political process for that matter).

It would be great if people talked about fullfilling societal obligations through mechanisms other than the government.

It still ain't a right....never has been one.

 

[saveliberty]

The medical industry...

..too big to fail.