Health Care Is A Right Not a Privilege!

[Cecilie1200]

How is YOUR healthcare EVERYONE'S problem, unless you're Typhoid Mary?

As described in this thread and dozens of others, genius. YOU and ME and EVERY OTHER paying customer are subsidizing the bills of the non-paying customers.

The insurance model works just fine in healthcare. It is a voluntary participation system. Individuals can choose to get a benefit by pooling with other people to account for random events.

Personally, I would like to have the option of health savings accounts. My entire family is obscenely healthy by nature. We virtually never go to the doctor except for annual checkups for the older members, and more frequent checkups for the toddler. I would much prefer, rather than paying large premiums in each paycheck for health insurance we're mostly not going to use, just to have much smaller amounts put into an HSA, that we could then use only if and when something happens to require it. Perhaps a very small insurance policy on the side for really catastrophic events.

 

[Cecilie1200]

How is YOUR healthcare EVERYONE'S problem, unless you're Typhoid Mary?

As described in this thread and dozens of others, genius. YOU and ME and EVERY OTHER paying customer are subsidizing the bills of the non-paying customers. Do try to keep up.

WHY?????? Do people not seem to get this??? I'm sick of bashing me head into the wall trying to explain this. The heads go into the sand, and everythings fine....UNTIL...said individual gets cancer, rheumatoid arthritis, multiple sclerosis, scleroderma, leukemia, or one of the other lovely chronic diseases.....and then they say "Hey, wow. I had no idea how much this shit cost."

What makes you think I don't know how much it costs? Why do you think I'm objecting so hard to having to pay for it for someone who isn't worth a bucket of warm spit to me?

Don't worry, I very much "get" that you dipshits have already imposed a bunch of total strangers on me, and somehow, that just doesn't add up to an argument that I should let you do so to an even greater extent.

 

[saveliberty]

Ever notice how anything that promotes irresponsible actions costs everyone else a lot of money?

 

[Katzndogz]

What democrats want is to eliminate the rights of doctors to be paid for their services.

 

[Cecilie1200]

No one has to buy life insurance.
People choose to buy it.
No one has to buy car insurance.
If you want to drive you buy it.
If you want health insurance,you buy it.
If you can't pay for it give up some of the things
that you can do without.

Yah, true. But as you know, if your car is financed, and the bank that you're financed through finds out that their car is uninsured....you'll be getting a late-night visit from a tow truck.

Yes, but that's not the government forcing you to buy something from a private company. That's a private company, with whom you VOLUNTARILY entered into a contractual agreement, having conditions in that contract, and you being in breach of those conditions.

 

[melonsmartin]

It is not insurance, which makes the lack of price increases. If so, it is the opposite. This is our national habit of over-insured, driving health care inflation. Little from the standard group plan "coverage" health care spending downward price pressure. In fact, they have exactly the opposite incentive. Once you have met their deductible, this is entirely in their interest to seek the best, most expensive care, they can be arranged.

 

[Listening]

I'm sure that Vanderbilt is not the only reputable medical center who is having this problem. Vanderbilt treats PLENTY of gangbangers who are shot....have seen it.

So what do you recommend that we do. Just let them die? Is that what Christ would do? SO many of you are religious on here. Are you a Christian?

AZ has emergency rooms that are closing because of illegals. That cuts out the legitimates from access to an ER.

Next, in Phoenix, the Mayo told Medicare patients to bring their checkbooks. No longer taking medicare for routine visits......This is the same Mayo that Obama held up as the cost model he wanted to follow (and it is a good cost model). That tells you how underfunded things are and Phoenix seniors are feeling it.

In the end, Health Care is not a right. We don't want government in our health care. That some don't have it and need it is addressed in other ways. The government is not the only solution and in fact it is a pretty stupid solution.

A. That is none of your business.

My feelings are hurt....never to be consoled.

B. It has nothing to do with rights.

It has everything to do with rights, if you are beating your chest that you are a Christian; for some reason, I've gotten that impression from your previous posts.

So what is your solution, Mr. or Mrs. "it's none of your business"? You just don't know, I suspect. Have you had the experience of having to depend on insurance for a serious illness. Oh my, how self-righteous we've become "moron" (your word).


If YOU have a better idea....if you're smart enough to come up with a solution, then what the hell is stopping you? You'd rather bitch about something that you know jack shit about.

Ride that "hands off my healthcare" bus. Instead of arriving at a solution, while we continue to treat you.....what's stopping you?

I'd rather spend my time trying to find ways to avoid having to intubate you-with the likes of CPAP, managing your pain with fentanyl, learning ways to resuscitate you with the new ACLS guidelines. Why don't you get busy finding a way to make it possible for all to receive treatment, instead of saying that you and your ilk are the only ones who deserve treatment.

Damn, I get sick of this crap.

Do you ever get tired of making up stuff and then arguing against it ?

I know plenty and I've never said "hands off my healthcare".

What I said....listen please...was that this has nothing to do with rights. Don't lecture people about talking on things they know nothing about as this is clearly what you are doing when you make that kind of statement.

I have said there is a problem.

But HEALTH CARE IS NOT A RIGHT.....period.

And leave my religious beliefs out of it. It's none of your business.

 

[dblack]

It is not insurance, which makes the lack of price increases. If so, it is the opposite. This is our national habit of over-insured, driving health care inflation. Little from the standard group plan "coverage" health care spending downward price pressure. In fact, they have exactly the opposite incentive. Once you have met their deductible, this is entirely in their interest to seek the best, most expensive care, they can be arranged.

???

 

[Listening]

Health Care has never been a right.

 

[syrenn]

Health Care has never been a right.

It has always been a right.


You have always had the right to pay for any and all medical care for yourself. No one is denying you the right or access to medical care.

 

[dblack]

Health Care has never been a right.

It has always been a right.


You have always had the right to pay for any and all medical care for yourself. No one is denying you the right or access to medical care.

Yeah, yeah... but you realize that the "health care is a right" crowd mean something different. They want to establish that having someone else take care of you is a right.

 

[syrenn]

Health Care has never been a right.

It has always been a right.


You have always had the right to pay for any and all medical care for yourself. No one is denying you the right or access to medical care.

Yeah, yeah... but you realize that the "health care is a right" crowd mean something different. They want to establish that having someone else take care of you is a right.

Yes, they think health care is an entitlement.

 

[frazzledgear]

Health Care Is A Right Not a Privilege!

Let's be clear. Our health care system is disintegrating. Today, 46 million people have no health insurance and even more are underinsured with high deductibles and co-payments. At a time when 60 million people, including many with insurance, do not have access to a medical home, more than 18,000 Americans die every year from preventable illnesses because they do not get to the doctor when they should. This is six times the number who died at the tragedy of 9/11 - but this occurs every year.

In the midst of this horrendous lack of coverage, the U.S. spends far more per capita on health care than any other nation - and health care costs continue to soar. At $2.4 trillion dollars, and 18 percent of our GDP, the skyrocketing cost of health care in this country is unsustainable both from a personal and macro-economic perspective.

Sen. Bernie Sanders: Health Care Is a Right, Not a Privilege

Agreed, healthcare is a right.....that you can pay for if you want it.

I just commented in another thread that I hate when the debate is framed as "Right v privelige," but let me play devils advocate here.

When Bill shatters his leg and doesn't have insurance and will die without care... Let him die?

WRONG WRONG WRONG. Let's make it clear -YOU can't even identify the real problem so your opinion is pretty worthless! Bill cannot be denied medical care for his broken leg that if left untreated would kill him and doesn't EVER need INSURANCE to get it treated or ever have the ability to pay for it to get it treated! Your example was totally irrelevant and unrelated to the real problem.

Let's start by NOT pretending health INSURANCE is the same thing as medical CARE -much less lie and pretend it is the same as QUALITY care. Certain people try to pretend these are all one and the same things -but they provably are NOT. There is a DELIBERATE attempt to constantly mingle one with the other for purposes of DECEPTION. And it is a very effective one.

In fact there is an inverse correlation in the prevalence of the former to the decline in the two others. All Brits now have government health insurance. But their government has started denying even curative treatment to those citizens it has decided just aren't worth the money. In other words, even if it would cure the individual of their disease, even if it would improve the quality of their life -what matters under universal health insurance becomes the best financial interests of GOVERNMENT. And NEVER AGAIN the best interests of the citizen himself first. Which is why mortality rates for all sorts of common conditions like diabetes, high blood pressure, stroke, breast and prostate cancers are all rising in the UK. They still pay for it and far more than they would if they paid it directly -but they sacrifice control and eventually the quality of their life. It becomes a system where when the average individual reaches the point in life where he finally really does NEED it the most -is when he will most likely be denied ACCESS to it. But hey, I'm sure he will be told what a real bargain he got by over valuing the service itself, convinced paying more than 8 times as much for it as he would have voluntarily paid for it if he paid for it directly was a real bargain -because hey, when he was younger he could go see the doctor for "free" when he had a cold so the doctor could tell him it would go away on its own - but denied a hip replacement which would have improved the quality of his life and allowed him to live out the remainder of his life far more independently. But was instead forced to live out the rest of his time in a wheelchair which takes years of life expectancy from someone and ended up dependent on others for that remaining time to boot. What a bargain. We can all only hope to experience it for ourselves so we can comfort ourselves with knowing how much we wasted on being able to see a doctor when we didn't NEED one only to be denied access to one when we did.

By its very nature, when the best interests of the individual who still pays for it even indirectly and the best interests of government who merely collects that money conflict -it is the individual who will always lose, with government putting a dollar amount on the value of that individual's life and demanding the individual accept it. No matter how valuable the individual himself finds his own life to be, HIS opinion becomes irrelevant when he isn't paying for it directly. Even though he not only PAID for that government health care, he paid more than 8 times as much for it than if he had paid for his own medical care directly. Are you too anxious to see nearly half your income disappear down the rat hole known as "government provided health care insurance" so that you too can receive a poor return on your money? ROFL

When people DO pay for it directly instead of handing control over to a third party, the quality of that person's life becomes PARAMOUNT. Which is the foundation for the vast majority of our medical advancements. Something that is not even particularly important to third party payees -including government. Once the foundation of improving the quality of life of people and trying to return an individual to be as independent as possible regardless of their age is stripped from our medical system -so is quality of care. The primary purpose of our medical system is NOT to save lives -because most people never see a doctor to save their life. Its primary purpose is to treat the sick and return them to at least their previous level of health, productivity and independence and IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF LIFE even when cure is not possible. Obama has openly said he wants to change that to a system that exists for the purpose of keeping healthy people healthy. Something that is impossible. Seeing a doctor when you have nothing wrong will not prevent you from getting sick. And you won't need the specialized services of a doctor UNTIL you are sick. Except for that teeny, minute group no doctor will be able to tell you are sick before YOU DO. So Obama has said he wants to fundamentally change our medical system from one that exists to improve the quality of life for sick people in order to return them to a more productive life as soon as possible -to one that exists primarily for the benefit of people who don't need it at all. Which is exactly what it becomes with universal government run health insurance. It is certainly cheaper to treat healthy people than it is to treat sick people, isn't it? So why not fundamentally change our medical system to one that exists for THEM instead?

So which are you wanting to pretend is the "right" here? That you have a "right" to the services of another person because you over-value the services they do? The vast majority of people could go their entire lives and lead normal lives without seeing a doctor -what they use doctors for is to make their lives more COMFORTABLE. Not because their existence is at stake. Only a small fraction NEED medical care just to survive. So let's not mix apples and oranges on that either.

Or do you mean to argue that you have a right to own a health care INSURANCE POLICY that will allow you to pretend your health care is free by forcing you to pay as much as 8 times more for your medical care than you would have VOLUNTARILY chosen to pay for it if you had just paid for it directly instead of paying a third party to pay your medical bills? Which is it here? Keep in mind insurance companies can't exist unless they get you to pay them MORE to pay your medical bills than it actually costs. And you already have a RIGHT to own a health insurance policy if, like anything you want to buy -you can pay for it. You are really talking about whether you have a "right" to insist everyone ELSE get one too -and THAT you have no right to demand. Especially when it provably makes the cost of MY medical care more expensive. So which of all these so-called rights do you REALLY think your discussing here with a stupid example like that when THAT isn't even a problem in this country???? People aren't being tossed in the road to die from their broken leg and nothing under discussion will change that -so why use an example that doesn't have a fucking thing to do with ANYTHING? It only only tells me you are incapable of even being able to hold a rational discussion because you clearly don't even know the root source for our problems in the first place!

In reality you already do have a right to purchase heath insurance which means you will likely pay 8 times more for medical care than you would have VOLUNTARILY chosen to pay for it if you just paid for it directly. What people like you REALLY mean in this debate is to claim a "right" to force everyone ELSE to spend 8 times more for THEIR medical care than they would have voluntarily chosen to spend on it too! No such right.

We don't have a deteriorating medical system. We have a deteriorating health insurance system because it is THIS industry that is the root cause of spiraling medical costs and it is causing damage to our medical system. Not the other way around. And yet people like you think the prescription to fix it is by not destroying the health insurance industry. But by destroying the medical care system instead. Oh sure -perfect sense! If you lack any critical thinking skills, that is.

The problem is not with the quality of your medical care in this country and it is not with access to medical care. Did you realize that OUR medical system is responsible for more than 95% of ALL medical advancements worldwide? Which we share with the entire globe. NOT the Cuban, not the French, not Chinese and for sure not the UK or Canadian ones -but sure, its OURS you see as "deteriorating" and believe it needs to be fundamentally changed to look like a proven INFERIOR one like they have in Canada or the UK???? Are you for real? It is people like you who try to pretend owning a health insurance policy is the same as improving the quality of medical care and an "improved" medical care system and it is one of the biggest fucking LIES going around! The source of the problem is with the cost of HEALTH INSURANCE -which is linked to the increased costs its very existence has caused in medical services. It is the existence of health insurance that is the root cause of the problem because the only way for health insurance companies -including government -to take in more than it pays out is by charging YOU more than you would have paid for it directly. If you doubt that, then tell me why you think we don't have insurance for food where you can buy an insurance policy and it lets you go to the grocery whenever you want and take out as much food as you want. Hey if you think that should work with medical services, it should work for ANYTHING you want in life. But we don't do that because when you substitute "medical care" with ANY other goods or service -you instantly realize how fucking stupid it is to pay 8 times more for a good or service to a third party than you would VOLUNTARILY choose to pay for it if you paid for it directly. Yes, there are such things as catastrophic medical costs -but the vast majority of us will never have them. Are we REALLY so stupid we can't figure out a way to assist those who do come across catastrophic costs that would financially wipe them out -without wiping out ourselves at the same time?

If you NEED medical care, you can get it and the quality of that care is outstanding regardless of your ability to pay for it. If you need to see a doctor in this country -your wait time to see one is a fraction of how long people in Canada or the UK will wait. Which can be as long as 2 1/2 YEARS. Which is why in the UK their mortality rates for all sorts of things like high blood pressure, stroke, diabetes, breast and prostate cancers have started rising. When you have to wait a long time to see a doctor, what ails you will either go away on its own. Or it gets worse and more resistant to treatment and you are more likely to end up in poorer health or even dead.

We have a health INSURANCE problem in this country -and that problem is affecting the costs of medical care. NOT the other way around. The medical system is NOT the root cause of the problem -and if you can't even identify the root cause of the problem, then ANY suggestions or demands on how to fix it is FLAWED, based on incorrect assumptions and guaranteed to make it WORSE. Health insurance guarantees you will pay at least 8 times MORE for your medical care by inserting and paying a third party to use that money to pay your bills and then pocket the rest as profit -than if you just paid for your medical care yourself. The very existence of health insurance is THE root cause of spiraling medical costs which did not exist UNTIL the existence of health insurance coverage for routine medical care. Do you really need me to walk you through why it is inserting a MASSIVE industry in between you and the person giving you their medical services does this? Really can't figure that out?

I'll be glad to walk you through it -but see if you can get through it on your own before coming back here and insisting the only possible answer to a health INSURANCE problem in this country which drives up the costs of medical care -is to destroy the single most productive and top quality medical system on the planet and replace it with one that when everything is functioning as intended (which becomes increasingly rarer) -is a mediocre one. Our system is the BEST on the planet with no close second. Ours is responsible for more than 95% of all medical advancements ON THE PLANET -which we then share globally. Destroying our system because people like YOU can't figure out the true source of the problem -is sheer stupidity and one in which BILLIONS will pay the real price.

We have a HEALTH INSURANCE problem -one that if we don't fix it, will destroy our medical system, the finest on earth. The proper solution to this problem is NOT to pretend the source of the problem itself lies in the medical system which is struggling to overcome the problems INDUCED by the very existence of health insurance and still remain the best in the world in spite of the existence of this problem causing and destructive health insurance industry. Unless you too have a real need to start seeing our own mortality rates for high blood pressure, diabetes, breast and prostate cancers, stroke etc. all start rising again insisting the source of the problem is the medical care system itself instead of properly identifying the real source of the problem is paramount in FIXING IT. Since the source of the problem isn't in the medical care system itself, pretending destroying that will somehow "fix" it is really stupid.

So this entire discussion is really about the people who are claiming they have a "right" to demand everyone pay more than 8 times more for their medical care than they would have VOLUNTARILY chosen to pay for it if they paid for it directly instead of indirectly. NO SUCH RIGHT EXISTS.

 

[chikenwing]

If being born isn't a right ... how is being taken care of a right?

Things that make you go mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

 

[Cuyo]

As described in this thread and dozens of others, genius. YOU and ME and EVERY OTHER paying customer are subsidizing the bills of the non-paying customers. Do try to keep up.

And that is why obamacare is no different then what we have now. So long as the majority will not pay a red cent into the system.. the ones who will be paying will have to carry them. Same thing we have now... except the ones who will be paying in my opinion will be getting less for their money and what they had before.

Actually, Obamacare does the opposite of what you insinuate. There will be more people paying, not less.

You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts.

 

[Cuyo]

Agreed, healthcare is a right.....that you can pay for if you want it.

I just commented in another thread that I hate when the debate is framed as "Right v privelige," but let me play devils advocate here.

When Bill shatters his leg and doesn't have insurance and will die without care... Let him die?

WRONG WRONG WRONG. Let's make it clear -YOU can't even identify the real problem so your opinion is pretty worthless! Bill cannot be denied medical care for his broken leg that if left untreated would kill him and doesn't EVER need INSURANCE to get it treated or ever have the ability to pay for it to get it treated! Your example was totally irrelevant and unrelated to the real problem.

Let's start by NOT pretending health INSURANCE is the same thing as medical CARE -much less lie and pretend it is the same as QUALITY care. Certain people try to pretend these are all one and the same things -but they provably are NOT. There is a DELIBERATE attempt to constantly mingle one with the other for purposes of DECEPTION. And it is a very effective one.

In fact there is an inverse correlation in the prevalence of the former to the decline in the two others. All Brits now have government health insurance. But their government has started denying even curative treatment to those citizens it has decided just aren't worth the money. In other words, even if it would cure the individual of their disease, even if it would improve the quality of their life -what matters under universal health insurance becomes the best financial interests of GOVERNMENT. And NEVER AGAIN the best interests of the citizen himself first. Which is why mortality rates for all sorts of common conditions like diabetes, high blood pressure, stroke, breast and prostate cancers are all rising in the UK. They still pay for it and far more than they would if they paid it directly -but they sacrifice control and eventually the quality of their life. It becomes a system where when the average individual reaches the point in life where he finally really does NEED it the most -is when he will most likely be denied ACCESS to it. But hey, I'm sure he will be told what a real bargain he got by over valuing the service itself, convinced paying more than 8 times as much for it as he would have voluntarily paid for it if he paid for it directly was a real bargain -because hey, when he was younger he could go see the doctor for "free" when he had a cold so the doctor could tell him it would go away on its own - but denied a hip replacement which would have improved the quality of his life and allowed him to live out the remainder of his life far more independently. But was instead forced to live out the rest of his time in a wheelchair which takes years of life expectancy from someone and ended up dependent on others for that remaining time to boot. What a bargain. We can all only hope to experience it for ourselves so we can comfort ourselves with knowing how much we wasted on being able to see a doctor when we didn't NEED one only to be denied access to one when we did.

By its very nature, when the best interests of the individual who still pays for it even indirectly and the best interests of government who merely collects that money conflict -it is the individual who will always lose, with government putting a dollar amount on the value of that individual's life and demanding the individual accept it. No matter how valuable the individual himself finds his own life to be, HIS opinion becomes irrelevant when he isn't paying for it directly. Even though he not only PAID for that government health care, he paid more than 8 times as much for it than if he had paid for his own medical care directly. Are you too anxious to see nearly half your income disappear down the rat hole known as "government provided health care insurance" so that you too can receive a poor return on your money? ROFL

When people DO pay for it directly instead of handing control over to a third party, the quality of that person's life becomes PARAMOUNT. Which is the foundation for the vast majority of our medical advancements. Something that is not even particularly important to third party payees -including government. Once the foundation of improving the quality of life of people and trying to return an individual to be as independent as possible regardless of their age is stripped from our medical system -so is quality of care. The primary purpose of our medical system is NOT to save lives -because most people never see a doctor to save their life. Its primary purpose is to treat the sick and return them to at least their previous level of health, productivity and independence and IMPROVE THE QUALITY OF LIFE even when cure is not possible. Obama has openly said he wants to change that to a system that exists for the purpose of keeping healthy people healthy. Something that is impossible. Seeing a doctor when you have nothing wrong will not prevent you from getting sick. And you won't need the specialized services of a doctor UNTIL you are sick. Except for that teeny, minute group no doctor will be able to tell you are sick before YOU DO. So Obama has said he wants to fundamentally change our medical system from one that exists to improve the quality of life for sick people in order to return them to a more productive life as soon as possible -to one that exists primarily for the benefit of people who don't need it at all. Which is exactly what it becomes with universal government run health insurance. It is certainly cheaper to treat healthy people than it is to treat sick people, isn't it? So why not fundamentally change our medical system to one that exists for THEM instead?

So which are you wanting to pretend is the "right" here? That you have a "right" to the services of another person because you over-value the services they do? The vast majority of people could go their entire lives and lead normal lives without seeing a doctor -what they use doctors for is to make their lives more COMFORTABLE. Not because their existence is at stake. Only a small fraction NEED medical care just to survive. So let's not mix apples and oranges on that either.

Or do you mean to argue that you have a right to own a health care INSURANCE POLICY that will allow you to pretend your health care is free by forcing you to pay as much as 8 times more for your medical care than you would have VOLUNTARILY chosen to pay for it if you had just paid for it directly instead of paying a third party to pay your medical bills? Which is it here? Keep in mind insurance companies can't exist unless they get you to pay them MORE to pay your medical bills than it actually costs. And you already have a RIGHT to own a health insurance policy if, like anything you want to buy -you can pay for it. You are really talking about whether you have a "right" to insist everyone ELSE get one too -and THAT you have no right to demand. Especially when it provably makes the cost of MY medical care more expensive. So which of all these so-called rights do you REALLY think your discussing here with a stupid example like that when THAT isn't even a problem in this country???? People aren't being tossed in the road to die from their broken leg and nothing under discussion will change that -so why use an example that doesn't have a fucking thing to do with ANYTHING? It only only tells me you are incapable of even being able to hold a rational discussion because you clearly don't even know the root source for our problems in the first place!

In reality you already do have a right to purchase heath insurance which means you will likely pay 8 times more for medical care than you would have VOLUNTARILY chosen to pay for it if you just paid for it directly. What people like you REALLY mean in this debate is to claim a "right" to force everyone ELSE to spend 8 times more for THEIR medical care than they would have voluntarily chosen to spend on it too! No such right.

We don't have a deteriorating medical system. We have a deteriorating health insurance system because it is THIS industry that is the root cause of spiraling medical costs and it is causing damage to our medical system. Not the other way around. And yet people like you think the prescription to fix it is by not destroying the health insurance industry. But by destroying the medical care system instead. Oh sure -perfect sense! If you lack any critical thinking skills, that is.

The problem is not with the quality of your medical care in this country and it is not with access to medical care. Did you realize that OUR medical system is responsible for more than 95% of ALL medical advancements worldwide? Which we share with the entire globe. NOT the Cuban, not the French, not Chinese and for sure not the UK or Canadian ones -but sure, its OURS you see as "deteriorating" and believe it needs to be fundamentally changed to look like a proven INFERIOR one like they have in Canada or the UK???? Are you for real? It is people like you who try to pretend owning a health insurance policy is the same as improving the quality of medical care and an "improved" medical care system and it is one of the biggest fucking LIES going around! The source of the problem is with the cost of HEALTH INSURANCE -which is linked to the increased costs its very existence has caused in medical services. It is the existence of health insurance that is the root cause of the problem because the only way for health insurance companies -including government -to take in more than it pays out is by charging YOU more than you would have paid for it directly. If you doubt that, then tell me why you think we don't have insurance for food where you can buy an insurance policy and it lets you go to the grocery whenever you want and take out as much food as you want. Hey if you think that should work with medical services, it should work for ANYTHING you want in life. But we don't do that because when you substitute "medical care" with ANY other goods or service -you instantly realize how fucking stupid it is to pay 8 times more for a good or service to a third party than you would VOLUNTARILY choose to pay for it if you paid for it directly. Yes, there are such things as catastrophic medical costs -but the vast majority of us will never have them. Are we REALLY so stupid we can't figure out a way to assist those who do come across catastrophic costs that would financially wipe them out -without wiping out ourselves at the same time?

If you NEED medical care, you can get it and the quality of that care is outstanding regardless of your ability to pay for it. If you need to see a doctor in this country -your wait time to see one is a fraction of how long people in Canada or the UK will wait. Which can be as long as 2 1/2 YEARS. Which is why in the UK their mortality rates for all sorts of things like high blood pressure, stroke, diabetes, breast and prostate cancers have started rising. When you have to wait a long time to see a doctor, what ails you will either go away on its own. Or it gets worse and more resistant to treatment and you are more likely to end up in poorer health or even dead.

We have a health INSURANCE problem in this country -and that problem is affecting the costs of medical care. NOT the other way around. The medical system is NOT the root cause of the problem -and if you can't even identify the root cause of the problem, then ANY suggestions or demands on how to fix it is FLAWED, based on incorrect assumptions and guaranteed to make it WORSE. Health insurance guarantees you will pay at least 8 times MORE for your medical care by inserting and paying a third party to use that money to pay your bills and then pocket the rest as profit -than if you just paid for your medical care yourself. The very existence of health insurance is THE root cause of spiraling medical costs which did not exist UNTIL the existence of health insurance coverage for routine medical care. Do you really need me to walk you through why it is inserting a MASSIVE industry in between you and the person giving you their medical services does this? Really can't figure that out?

I'll be glad to walk you through it -but see if you can get through it on your own before coming back here and insisting the only possible answer to a health INSURANCE problem in this country which drives up the costs of medical care -is to destroy the single most productive and top quality medical system on the planet and replace it with one that when everything is functioning as intended (which becomes increasingly rarer) -is a mediocre one. Our system is the BEST on the planet with no close second. Ours is responsible for more than 95% of all medical advancements ON THE PLANET -which we then share globally. Destroying our system because people like YOU can't figure out the true source of the problem -is sheer stupidity and one in which BILLIONS will pay the real price.

We have a HEALTH INSURANCE problem -one that if we don't fix it, will destroy our medical system, the finest on earth. The proper solution to this problem is NOT to pretend the source of the problem itself lies in the medical system which is struggling to overcome the problems INDUCED by the very existence of health insurance and still remain the best in the world in spite of the existence of this problem causing and destructive health insurance industry. Unless you too have a real need to start seeing our own mortality rates for high blood pressure, diabetes, breast and prostate cancers, stroke etc. all start rising again insisting the source of the problem is the medical care system itself instead of properly identifying the real source of the problem is paramount in FIXING IT. Since the source of the problem isn't in the medical care system itself, pretending destroying that will somehow "fix" it is really stupid.

So this entire discussion is really about the people who are claiming they have a "right" to demand everyone pay more than 8 times more for their medical care than they would have VOLUNTARILY chosen to pay for it if they paid for it directly instead of indirectly. NO SUCH RIGHT EXISTS.

Long boring wall of text not read.

You should really read to the end of a thread before running your mouth. I never said Bill was going to be denied care, and nobody thinks he is. The point is, that unless you're willing to deny him care, spouting off that everyone needs to pay for their own is worthless.

 

[dblack]

Long boring wall of text not read.

You should really read to the end of a thread before running your mouth. I never said Bill was going to be denied care, and nobody thinks he is. The point is, that unless you're willing to deny him care, spouting off that everyone needs to pay for their own is worthless.

You should read the post when you have time. It makes a lot of sense.

 

[syrenn]

As described in this thread and dozens of others, genius. YOU and ME and EVERY OTHER paying customer are subsidizing the bills of the non-paying customers. Do try to keep up.

And that is why obamacare is no different then what we have now. So long as the majority will not pay a red cent into the system.. the ones who will be paying will have to carry them. Same thing we have now... except the ones who will be paying in my opinion will be getting less for their money and what they had before.

Actually, Obamacare does the opposite of what you insinuate. There will be more people paying, not less.

You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts.

Of course more people will be paying....as they will be forced to pay for it regardless if they want obamacare or not. It will also be more people seeking/getting/demanding care that they once did not pay for....but will be entitled to.

It will be the same thing we have now but worse..... the non payers will out strip the ones paying.

 

[dblack]

And that is why obamacare is no different then what we have now. So long as the majority will not pay a red cent into the system.. the ones who will be paying will have to carry them. Same thing we have now... except the ones who will be paying in my opinion will be getting less for their money and what they had before.

Actually, Obamacare does the opposite of what you insinuate. There will be more people paying, not less.

You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts.

Of course more people will be paying....as they will be forced to pay for it regardless if they want obamacare or not. It will also be more people seeking/getting/demanding care that they once did not pay for....but will be entitled to.

It will be the same thing we have now but worse..... the non payers will out strip the ones paying.

If this bag of shit really does get forced on us, I plan on finegling things so that I'm a non-payer as much I possible. We owe it to the corporate stooges who passed this thing to game it for all it's worth.

 

[Listening]

And that is why obamacare is no different then what we have now. So long as the majority will not pay a red cent into the system.. the ones who will be paying will have to carry them. Same thing we have now... except the ones who will be paying in my opinion will be getting less for their money and what they had before.

Actually, Obamacare does the opposite of what you insinuate. There will be more people paying, not less.

You're entitled to your opinions, but not your own facts.

Of course more people will be paying....as they will be forced to pay for it regardless if they want obamacare or not. It will also be more people seeking/getting/demanding care that they once did not pay for....but will be entitled to.

It will be the same thing we have now but worse..... the non payers will out strip the ones paying.

Bravo.....

Mr. Shaman posts a link to Forbes that has a title "Obamacare is working" and the main point of the thread is that it has pulled more young people into the system (who don't need health care) so that old people (who do) don't have to pay as much.

That was the definition of "working".

In other words, it was robbing the young of their liberty.

Great job.