Zone1 have you ever heard Jesus....

[The Irish Ram]

If your youngest child owes a debt. What sense does it make to say to the youngest, "I am forgiving you the entire debt," and then turning to the oldest who owes no debt and saying, "I am going to punish you for the debt I forgave the younger." When a debt is forgiven/canceled, no punishment is called for.

The debt was cancelled because of the punishment, not in spite of it. Christ volunteered to be punished in our place, so that we won't be. It wasn't forced on Jesus. He died for us out of love. A love so strong that it is out of our realm of comprehension.

John 10:18 No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord

John 15:13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends.

 

[Meriweather]

The debt was cancelled because of the punishment, not in spite of it. Christ volunteered to be punished in our place, so that we won't be. It wasn't forced on Jesus. He died for us out of love. A love so strong that it is out of our realm of comprehension.

Which scriptures say Jesus was being punished or have Jesus describing his death or sacrifice as punishment?

 

[Meriweather]

If obedience worked there would not have been a need for Jesus and the cross.

Jesus was the example of how well obedience works. Adam and Eve thought, through knowledge, they had found a better way of life.

 

[BreezeWood]

Obedience is important, but God showed us by giving the Jews over 600 rules to obey, that we can't be obedient. The Law was death because of the Jews inability to be obedient. Christ was obedient for their sake and fulfilled the Law for them.

there are no such commandments or rules from the heavens ...

only lies and deceptions made for the nefarious benefit of judaism used by those that crucified jesus and those others that repudiated judaism for the original paradisian heavenly religion of antiquity based on self determination sought by a&e in the beginning.

 

[Deplorable Yankee]

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

I honestly don't think Jesus cares how the faithful worship him so long as they do so with reverence and respect and do not harm themselves or others

THIS is demonstrably FALSE.
IF you are not HATED for the message your present, you are pushing a false gospel. If you're a friend of the world, the Spirit isn't in you

 

[Foxfyre]

Some here say they have asked Mary for favors. That would fall under this category:

Deuteronomy 18:11 ...or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead.​

Unless you believe that the Christian is not dead but enjoys eternal life as Jesus said.

Deuteronomy also says: "When men have a dispute they are to take it to court and the judges will decide the case, acquitting the innocent and condemning the guilty. If the guilty man deserves to be beaten, the judge shall make him lie down and have him flogged in his presence with the number of lashes his crime deserves. . ." (not more than 40.)

And it says "If brothers are living together and one of them dies without a son, his widow mut not marry outside the family. Her husband's brother shall taker and marry her and fulfill the duty of a brother-in-law to her. . .
. . .(and if he won't). ". . .his brother's widow shall go up to him the presence of the elders, take off one of his sandals, spit in his face and say, "This is what is done to the man who will not build up his brother's family line." That man's line shall be know in Israel as The family of the Unsandaled. . ." --Deuteronomy 25

I didn't go looking for those scriptures but just opened my Bible to Deuteronomy and chose the first scriptures I saw. The fact is there is a whole lot of Deuteronomy we read now as sort of history but do not consider it as law we are to follow to this day. So it becomes rather incongruous at best to pick one verse convenient to our argument and ignore all that isn't convenient. I rather think both Jesus and the Apostle Paul urged us to use our God given common sense rather than strict adherence to the Law which can inform us but it must not be 'worshipped' either.

But as a counter argument in Luke 16 we have Jesus' parable of the rich man in hell requesting favors from Abraham in Heaven. The rich man was not worshipping Abraham in any way but was asking him for the favor first of sending Lazarus to cool his tongue and when that was denied to send Lazarus to his brothers to warn them of hell. . ."

An odd parable if it is sinful to petition those in Heaven. . .

All this is to say I believe we should follow the nudging of the Holy Spirit and do what is right for us and others and leaving the spiritual judgment of others to God where it belongs.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

he fact is there is a whole lot of Deuteronomy we read now as sort of history but do not consider it as law we are to follow to this day

Are you "teaching" people that witchcraft, and appealing to the DEAD is okay with God now?

These that you pointed out are not SPIRITUAL LAWS, but laws for the governance of the nation at that time -- as d they worked

The laws she listed govern the spiritual mind and what a nation UNDER GOD would enforce. The SPIRITUAL MIND will understand AND OBEY those things she refrenced

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Do you think this song is about Jesus Christ?

 

[Foxfyre]

THIS is demonstrably FALSE.
IF you are not HATED for the message your present, you are pushing a false gospel. If you're a friend of the world, the Spirit isn't in you

Please see my Post #27.

And I would further encourage all to read Jesus words in Matthew 7 that begins: "Do not judge, or you too will be judged. . ."

Are you "teaching" people that witchcraft, and appealing to the DEAD is okay with God now?

These that you pointed out are not SPIRITUAL LAWS, but laws for the governance of the nation at that time -- as d they worked

The laws she listed govern the spiritual mind and what a nation UNDER GOD would enforce. The SPIRITUAL MIND will understand AND OBEY those things she refrenced

I'm teaching that proof texting is almost always going to be a poor way to love God with all your heart, all your soul, all your mind and to love your neighbor as you want to be loved. On these two things hang ALL the law and the prophets. When I see my Catholic friend or family member being far more Christianlike than I ever hope to be, when I see the love of God in them and demonstrated in all they do, I am not about to presume authority to judge the state of their heart and faith as unworthy in the eyes of God. Jesus I'm pretty sure was serious when he commanded us not to judge and to not presume authority to condemn others.

 

[Meriweather]

Are you "teaching" people that witchcraft, and appealing to the DEAD is okay with God now?

Transfiguration.

 

[CarlinAnnArbor]

Transfiguration.

My response was to foxfyre, not you

 

[The Irish Ram]

Which scriptures say Jesus was being punished or have Jesus describing his death or sacrifice as punishment?

Isaiah 53:5 But he was being punished for what we did. He was crushed because of our guilt. He took the punishment we deserved, and this brought us peace. We were healed because of his pain

 

[Meriweather]

My response was to foxfyre, not you

Then you disregard me as a member and a participant of this thread? When a group gathers in real life, are you the same way, telling everyone in that group not to talk to you unless you have spoken to them first? Take a look at my posts in this thread that you responded to. Had I first been speaking to you? Yet you freely responded to them, didn't you, as should anyone feel free to do so in an open thread.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Jesus was the example of how well obedience works. Adam and Eve thought, through knowledge, they had found a better way of life.

Jesus is the only example of a sin free man. The rest of the whole of mankind has failed at being obedient.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and all are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.

The Pharisees were a horrible example of obedience. Christ's railed against the Temple Priests for their pursuit of obedience to the Law, at the expense of love.

Matthew 23:23 “Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: judgment, mercy, and faith.

 

[BreezeWood]

Jesus is the only example of a sin free man. The rest of the whole of mankind has failed at being obedient.

jesus is an exemplar ... for all to accomplish as they had - to sin no more.

as the heavens instructed during the time of noah to become sinless as the only means for remission to the everlasting.

they taught liberation theology, self determination the opposite for why they were unjustly crucified never once claiming to be a jew - nor what they taught, the religion of antiquity anywhere found in the christian bible or any of the 3 desert religions.

 

[Meriweather]

Isaiah 53:5 But he was being punished for what we did. He was crushed because of our guilt. He took the punishment we deserved, and this brought us peace. We were healed because of his pain

The original Hebrew does not say 'punished'. Christianity should also understand the differences between what Isaiah said in the original Hebrew, and what King James says in English. Jesus was indeed a suffering servant in his time, but here the similarity ends, because the suffering servant Isaiah writes of is the nation of Israel.

King James translated (or deliberately changed--who knows--) the original Hebrew of "from our" to "for our". Isaiah 53, notes that Israel, the suffering servant, was suffering from and because of their own wrong-doings (i.e., "from" our).

 

[Meriweather]

The Pharisees were a horrible example of obedience. Christ's railed against the Temple Priests for their obedience to the Law, at the expense of love.

Note that Jesus did not say "Discern the Law and obey it", he said, "Discern the will of God and follow/obey God's will."

 

[BreezeWood]

Note that Jesus did not say "Discern the Law and obey it", he said, "Discern the will of God and follow/obey God's will."

the heavenly noah intervention is their only command as jesus taught to sin no more to free ones spirit for judgement and remission to the everlasting.

 

[The Irish Ram]

Transfiguration.

None of the disciples conjured up Moses or asked Moses to help them in any regard. Or prayed to him. It does solidify the fact that we are eternal beings though...

The original Hebrew does not say 'punished'. Christianity should also understand the differences between what Isaiah said in the original Hebrew, and what King James says in English. Jesus was indeed a suffering servant in his time, but here the similarity ends, because the suffering servant Isaiah writes of is the nation of Israel.

King James translated (or deliberately changed--who knows--) the original Hebrew of "from our" to "for our". Isaiah 53, notes that Israel, the suffering servant, was suffering from and because of their own wrong-doings (i.e., "from" our).

עֲנִישָׁה It is restorative and redemptive in nature, and if a punishment does not restore or redeem, then it has failed.

Unless you speak ancient Hebrew, or Koin (ancient Greek) we have to rely on the translation of the two. And the translation isn't as corrupt as some people think. The goal was to translate as close to the original as they could get. One word may or may not be changed but it doesn't usually change the theme of the text. Read on and you will understand the meaning of what Isaiah was talking about.

Isaiah 53:5-11​

But he was being punished for what we did. He was crushed because of our guilt. He took the punishment we deserved, and this brought us peace. We were healed because of his pain. We had all wandered away like sheep. We had gone our own way. And yet the LORD put all our guilt on him.He was treated badly, but he never protested. He said nothing, like a lamb being led away to be killed. He was like a sheep that makes no sound as its wool is being cut off. He never opened his mouth to defend himself. He was taken away by force and judged unfairly. The people of his time did not even notice that he was killed. But he was put to death for the sins of his people. He had done no wrong to anyone. He had never even told a lie. But he was buried among the wicked. His tomb was with the rich.But the LORD was pleased with this humble servant who suffered such pain. Even after giving himself as an offering for sin, he will see his descendants and enjoy a long life. He will succeed in doing what the LORD wanted. After his suffering he will see the light, and he will be satisfied with what he experienced.The Lord says, “My servant, who always does what is right, will make his people right with me; he will take away their sins.

If you don't like punished, then go to the next sentence.