Harvard study: Hey, maybe we’re placing too much emphasis on a college education

[Truthmatters]

Yes it was a top of my head number.

I have just moved from Nevada which has a very low teacher pay scale.

Teachers are NOT payed what most fields that reguire a degree pay.


To pretend they only work 10 months is silly. Every teacher I have ever known worked in the summer to plan their next years teaching plan.



$17.50 an hour before taxes and with 2 weeks vacation

Is what 35,000 a year works out to

 

[xotoxi]

A new report released by Harvard Wednesday states in some of the strongest terms yet that such a “college for all” emphasis may actually harm many American students – keeping them from having a smooth transition from adolescence to adulthood and a viable career…

“It would be fine if we had an alternative system [for students who don’t get college degrees], but we’re virtually unique among industrialized countries in terms of not having another system and relying so heavily on higher education,” says Robert Schwartz, who heads the Pathways to Prosperity project at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education.

The United States can learn from other countries, particularly in northern Europe, Professor Schwartz says. In Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, and Switzerland, for instance, between 40 and 70 percent of high-schoolers opt for programs that combine classroom and workplace learning, many of them involving apprenticeships. These pathways result in a “qualification” that has real currency in the labor market…

“If we persist with the illusion that everyone is going to college, then we’re cheating those kids who aren’t going,” Professor Ferguson says. “A majority of the workforce does not have a college degree, and a majority of the things those people do are going to continue not requiring a college degree.”

Harvard study: Hey, maybe we’re placing too much emphasis on a college education Hot Air

Really? No shit?

Score one for common sense.

The question is: how do we fix the ridiculous mindset?

Would you be in your current career if you had only graduated from high school?

 

[High_Gravity]

I think high schools need to be teaching kids how to live in the real world, how to manage money, how to pay hills, basic house hold things like changing a light bulb, etc. have any of you guys spent time with an actual high school student these days? the ones I have dealt with have no clue what is going on in the world and don't have a fucking clue on what it takes to live on their own, high school is doing nothing to prepare them for the real world.

 

[rdean]

Proof education is meaningless from the right wing? Who would have thought?

 

[Truthmatters]

High school kids need to be taught alot of things that they could incorporate into the regular curriculum.


Life skills and much more could very easily be used to get kids learning.

We have to make it a priority to fix education.

We have had good education in the past and can do it again.

It will never happen as long as the right screams "throwing money at the problem" when the subject somes up.

 

[boedicca]

This is an interesting topic. I've read quite a few articles and analyses lately covering higher education cost inflation. One common theme is that more and more college graduates are doing doing jobs which decades ago required only a high school education (even before the recent economic decline).

One result of the government's policy that "everyone should have a college education" (much like "everyone should own a home") has been to drive massive price inflation via government encouraged debt, with a dumbing down of degrees which have no real economic value post education. We've just made these graduates older and in debt when they join the workforce.

I have a friend who hired such a person. During a recent conversation, he mentioned that he is having huge issues with his administrative assistant because she is So Unhappy with her career. She has a film degree from Columbia and, of course, a massive amount of student loan debt. As the new Obama Slogan goes...WTF?

Universities also share a great deal of blame by offering low value degrees and facilitating massive loans to kids with no apparent ability to repay such loans. The net effect is that many of their graduates will spend a great deal of their work life paying off loans instead of saving for a home and starting a family.

 

[Two Thumbs]

A new report released by Harvard Wednesday states in some of the strongest terms yet that such a “college for all” emphasis may actually harm many American students – keeping them from having a smooth transition from adolescence to adulthood and a viable career…

“It would be fine if we had an alternative system [for students who don’t get college degrees], but we’re virtually unique among industrialized countries in terms of not having another system and relying so heavily on higher education,” says Robert Schwartz, who heads the Pathways to Prosperity project at Harvard’s Graduate School of Education.

The United States can learn from other countries, particularly in northern Europe, Professor Schwartz says. In Austria, Denmark, Finland, Germany, the Netherlands, Norway, and Switzerland, for instance, between 40 and 70 percent of high-schoolers opt for programs that combine classroom and workplace learning, many of them involving apprenticeships. These pathways result in a “qualification” that has real currency in the labor market…

“If we persist with the illusion that everyone is going to college, then we’re cheating those kids who aren’t going,” Professor Ferguson says. “A majority of the workforce does not have a college degree, and a majority of the things those people do are going to continue not requiring a college degree.”

Harvard study: Hey, maybe we’re placing too much emphasis on a college education Hot Air

Really? No shit?

Score one for common sense.

The question is: how do we fix the ridiculous mindset?

It's called Vo-Tech in HS

And we have colleges that teach to a specific job, but they get handcuffed by the req to get a degree.

When my wife was in college learning to do Medical coding and billing. Did she need to take accounting? A psyic course? English?

No, no and no.

But to get her di[ploma, not a degree, just the diploma, she had to spend money on all those course.

It's the liberal elitist mentality that you need a degree and you must take certain courses, no matter what, to be as good as them.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

By giving schools more money to set up these programs.

You know throwing money at the problem.

The type of thing the right screams about every time someone tries to fix our schools.

Why would we need to throw money at the schools when we already spend more than any other nation in the world? What school districts need to do is adjust their priorities.

 

[Two Thumbs]

Proof education is meaningless from the right wing? Who would have thought?

Hey moron

It's a study from Harvard. Any further to the left and they fall off the edge.

 

[Two Thumbs]

By giving schools more money to set up these programs.

You know throwing money at the problem.

The type of thing the right screams about every time someone tries to fix our schools.

Why would we need to throw money at the schools when we already spend more than any other nation in the world? What school districts need to do is adjust their priorities.

Don't need to do either.

there's tons of schools that will teach a trade. Liberals need to break the mindset that a bricklayer is not as worthy as a lawyer.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

About 4 years after I graduated, I realized that a year of experience in the real world is far more valuable and educational than 4 years of college. I'm sure its different for Doctors, some Scientists, and other highly technical careers, but for the average 4 year graduate (ESPECIALLY business and management), you will learn more your first year in the real world than you did in the 4 years it took to get the degree.

I have a Bachelor's degree and an MBA. I owe about $70k in college loans that I'm paying back at the tune of $630 a month. I could buy a second place on the beach for that much a month.

I do think the MBA was worthwhile. I did take something away from it and down the road I believe it will greatly offset that costs I paid to get it, but I completely agree with you when it comes to undergrad education. I started working prior to going to school and I definitely learned more on the job than I ever did in a classroom getting my Bachelor's. I almost feel it was a waste of time and money in some regards, considering what colleges charge to get one.

I've always thought that we should go back to apprenticeships. College should be two years of classroom stuff and a year of unpaid internship at a company where experience can be gained. Obviously, some professions like medical and law would require more classroom time because you have to have a lot of book knowledge for those, but for most fields I think what I propose is doable and make considerably more sense.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

Only if they were shitty programs designed to make workers and not thinkers

You think today's public schools teach kids to think?

They're not taught how to think; they're taught what to think. They're taught how to pass a state mandated exam.

Besides, there is a need for workers as well. The world needs ditch diggers too.

 

[Dont Taz Me Bro]

The right excoriates teachers and pays them dirt wages.

What, are you living in 1985 still? Where are you getting this idea that teachers get paid dirt wages? Teachers' salaries and benefits have increased substantially over the past couple decades. In fact, they're part of the reason why states like California, Illinois, New York, and New Jersey are headed towards bankruptcy right now. California has the highest paid teachers in the country and they rank near the bottom when it comes to education quality.

 

[asterism]

Yes it was a top of my head number.

Quite inaccurate, too.

I have just moved from Nevada which has a very low teacher pay scale.

Teachers are NOT payed what most fields that reguire a degree pay.

That's completely different than "dirt wages."

To pretend they only work 10 months is silly. Every teacher I have ever known worked in the summer to plan their next years teaching plan.

Really? Every teacher I know either takes the summers off (one of the reasons they took the job in the first place), take temporary jobs, or do extra administrative and planning work during the summer for additional pay.

$17.50 an hour before taxes and with 2 weeks vacation

Is what 35,000 a year works out to

Not bad for a starting salary, more than I made starting out as a computer programmer for a bank, and there were no automatic raises just for doing the same job. I agree that the average pay should be higher and the top pay for excellent teachers should go well into six figures, but that doesn't require more funding, it requires different priorities.

 

[asterism]

Only if they were shitty programs designed to make workers and not thinkers

You think today's public schools teach kids to think?

They're not taught how to think; they're taught what to think. They're taught how to pass a state mandated exam.

Besides, there is a need for workers as well. The world needs ditch diggers too.

Actually most college courses don't teach students how to think or learn either, they teach talking points that are repeated back on tests. The result is uneducated degree holders with no skills.

 

[Old Rocks]

OK. A lesson from the real world. From the time I was little, I took apart things, sometimes even managed to put them back together again. Finished high school. Went to work in a mill, and soon was working on the equipment. Realizing that I needed more training, I took welding, blueprint reading, college algebra, trig, and geometry. At night, of course, as I was working during the day. Straight A's. And it was fun. Being a rock packer since I had pockets, I decided to take an introductory course in Geology. Geology of the North Cascades. And was hooked.

Dropped out of regular good paying work, and for about six years, took whatever job I could take that matched classes, and, before getting hit with the '72 downturn, ended up with about 3 years of Geology. After '72, picked up my tools again, and worked up till now as a Millwright.

Was the education wasted? Not at all. The training I recieved in thinking problems through has served me well in my career, and now at the end of it, earn in the top 5% of the non-construction millwrights.

Yes, we need more trades training. We need to merchandise it more aggressively. And we need to respect those tradesmen. I have had it expressed here by many on the right that I should not be as aggressive in my opinions as they are, for I have no degree. Even when they obviously have done no research on the subject. Because one is a tradesman does not mean that the intellectual development stopped.

There is another point here. As a tradesman, I have seen the development of the computerization of industry from the git-go. Were I to be planning another twenty years of work, I would need to go back to school for at least another year. As we extend our lifespans, the good part of it, and push up retirement ages, we had better address the fact that the technology moves fast enough now that every twenty years, there needs to be some catchup training. Intensive, not after work type, training. Not a problem for me, but you that are in your twenties and thirties might be thinking of this matter.

 

[chanel]

My husband is a plumber Old Rocks. He needs to do several hours a year of continuing education to keep his license. You are right that people must continue to learn. It just doesn't have to cost $40K a year.

These are NJ's graduation requirements. There are only so many hours in a day.

The new high school rules require 120 credits for graduation -- up from 110 -- and an infusion of "21st century skills" across all content areas. Three years of math will be phased in for students, starting with Algebra 1 for current high school freshmen. Geometry will be added for the 2010-2011 ninth-grade class and "a third year of math that builds upon these two courses" will be required for the incoming freshman class of 2012-13.

Three years of lab science are also now required, starting with biology for current freshmen. A second year of science -- either chemistry, physics or environmental science, will be added for the incoming freshmen of 2010-11; and a third lab science course will be required for the class that begins high school in 2012-13.

The incoming freshmen of 2010-11 must also take a half-year of economics and financial literacy under the new requirements.

Three years in the making, the new rules will also require students to take up to seven course ending exams in specific subject areas

This is in addition to: 2 years of world languages, 4 years of health/phys ed., 1 year visual/performing arts; 1 year of career ed/consumer skills; and electives

Where does a shop class fit in?

I just gave a copy of this study to the head of our math dept. They are now in discussion about scheduling struggling math/language students for TWO PERIODS of math/English next year. Kids who hate school will soon hate it twice as much.

We had an excellent Vo-Tech school in town which prepared students for work in the community. Our economy is based on fishing, boating, building, and tourism. They had courses in marine mechanics, plumbing, electric, hospitality, etc.

A few years ago, they dropped the word "Vocational" from their name and now are called a "technical high school". They teach marine biology and TV broadcasting and all kinds of cool classes. But they all require further degrees in college. The kids must maintain a clean discipline record and a certain GPA or they are kicked back to the regular public high school. What a travesty.

No extra is money is needed. We just need to refocus our priorities and consider kids' strengths and interests. But I honestly don't see it happening. "Tracking" is code word for racism in the education field. Sad, but true.

 

[uscitizen]

Just another anti elitist liberal thread...

 

[Quantum Windbag]

By giving schools more money to set up these programs.

You know throwing money at the problem.

The type of thing the right screams about every time someone tries to fix our schools.

No, idiot, by allowing businesses to set up, and run, the programs, just like they do in Europe.

 

[Quantum Windbag]

Only if they were shitty programs designed to make workers and not thinkers

Looks like we have another candidate for dumbest post of the year.

Explain to me exactly how schools teach people how to think when the only real goal they have is to pass a standardized test.