Guns vs Voter ID laws and right wing hypocrisy .

Tell me if this sounds familiar ?

"Our constitutional rights shall not be infringed "
"These laws only stop the law abiding , not the criminals"
"These laws don't even work"


What am I talking about ? We'll those are typical responses when the issue of gun control comes into play .

But talk about state issued voter ID , and the conservatives do a 180.

"What's the big deal about getting one of these IDS?" (Fuck your constitutional rights)
"We have to stop voter fraud ". ( it doesn't exist )
"We need to protect the vote " ( this stops more legit voters than any illegal vote)


So much for protecting our freedoms .
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.
These States Have More Registered Voters Than Eligible Adults…What One Group Wants to Do About It
Dick Morris: There's proof that over 1 million people voted twice in 2012
Republican National Lawyers Association | (RNLA)

Well, that certainly explains the last congressional election....
 
Tell me if this sounds familiar ?

"Our constitutional rights shall not be infringed "
"These laws only stop the law abiding , not the criminals"
"These laws don't even work"


What am I talking about ? We'll those are typical responses when the issue of gun control comes into play .

But talk about state issued voter ID , and the conservatives do a 180.

"What's the big deal about getting one of these IDS?" (Fuck your constitutional rights)
"We have to stop voter fraud ". ( it doesn't exist )
"We need to protect the vote " ( this stops more legit voters than any illegal vote)


So much for protecting our freedoms .
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.

Getting an I.D. is an undue burden:uhh:
It is when they have to find the DMV (unless it's next door to the welfare office or the nearest liquor store)...

If u don't have a photo ID , how do u get a photo ID ?
This has been covered in so many thread, its beyond ridiculous that you ask this question....
Who doesn't have a photo ID?
Tell me if this sounds familiar ?

"Our constitutional rights shall not be infringed "
"These laws only stop the law abiding , not the criminals"
"These laws don't even work"


What am I talking about ? We'll those are typical responses when the issue of gun control comes into play .

But talk about state issued voter ID , and the conservatives do a 180.

"What's the big deal about getting one of these IDS?" (Fuck your constitutional rights)
"We have to stop voter fraud ". ( it doesn't exist )
"We need to protect the vote " ( this stops more legit voters than any illegal vote)


So much for protecting our freedoms .
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.

Getting an I.D. is an undue burden:uhh:
It is when they have to find the DMV (unless it's next door to the welfare office or the nearest liquor store)...

If u don't have a photo ID , how do u get a photo ID ?
This has been covered in so many thread, its beyond ridiculous that you ask this question....
Who doesn't have a photo ID?

It's not just a photo ID , it's a specific photo ID . Old people may have some 20 year old ID, that's not acceptable . Student Photo ID from state university . Not acceptable !

Why not ?
 
Tell me if this sounds familiar ?

"Our constitutional rights shall not be infringed "
"These laws only stop the law abiding , not the criminals"
"These laws don't even work"


What am I talking about ? We'll those are typical responses when the issue of gun control comes into play .

But talk about state issued voter ID , and the conservatives do a 180.

"What's the big deal about getting one of these IDS?" (Fuck your constitutional rights)
"We have to stop voter fraud ". ( it doesn't exist )
"We need to protect the vote " ( this stops more legit voters than any illegal vote)


So much for protecting our freedoms .
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.

I'm not inconsistent at all, I think EVERY restriction placed on a gun buyer should apply to EVERY voter. The voter should have to prove eligibility to vote EVERY time they cast a ballot, just like a gun buyer does when they purchase a gun.

Then all guns should be registered . Like all voters are .
 
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.

Getting an I.D. is an undue burden:uhh:
It is when they have to find the DMV (unless it's next door to the welfare office or the nearest liquor store)...

If u don't have a photo ID , how do u get a photo ID ?
This has been covered in so many thread, its beyond ridiculous that you ask this question....
Who doesn't have a photo ID?
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.

Getting an I.D. is an undue burden:uhh:
It is when they have to find the DMV (unless it's next door to the welfare office or the nearest liquor store)...

If u don't have a photo ID , how do u get a photo ID ?
This has been covered in so many thread, its beyond ridiculous that you ask this question....
Who doesn't have a photo ID?

It's not just a photo ID , it's a specific photo ID . Old people may have some 20 year old ID, that's not acceptable . Student Photo ID from state university . Not acceptable !

Why not ?
Gee, are you actually saying Democrats are too stupid to find the DMV???

Maybe we should Institute an IQ test for voting, to rule out the absolute vegetables, where they don't drool on the voting machines and short them out...
 
Tell me if this sounds familiar ?

"Our constitutional rights shall not be infringed "
"These laws only stop the law abiding , not the criminals"
"These laws don't even work"


What am I talking about ? We'll those are typical responses when the issue of gun control comes into play .

But talk about state issued voter ID , and the conservatives do a 180.

"What's the big deal about getting one of these IDS?" (Fuck your constitutional rights)
"We have to stop voter fraud ". ( it doesn't exist )
"We need to protect the vote " ( this stops more legit voters than any illegal vote)


So much for protecting our freedoms .
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.

I'm not inconsistent at all, I think EVERY restriction placed on a gun buyer should apply to EVERY voter. The voter should have to prove eligibility to vote EVERY time they cast a ballot, just like a gun buyer does when they purchase a gun.

Then all guns should be registered . Like all voters are .

I didn't say that, voters should prove eligibility every time they cast a ballot, just like a gun purchaser, no need for preregistration. Use the same instant verification system they use for guns.
 
Tell me if this sounds familiar ?

"Our constitutional rights shall not be infringed "
"These laws only stop the law abiding , not the criminals"
"These laws don't even work"


What am I talking about ? We'll those are typical responses when the issue of gun control comes into play .

But talk about state issued voter ID , and the conservatives do a 180.

"What's the big deal about getting one of these IDS?" (Fuck your constitutional rights)
"We have to stop voter fraud ". ( it doesn't exist )
"We need to protect the vote " ( this stops more legit voters than any illegal vote)


So much for protecting our freedoms .
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.
Gee, you have to show an ID to buy a gun...

Maybe you should call Obozo and tell him to make up a law doing away with that requirement...

Then we'll talk...

You have to register to vote.

And let's say someone cheats and illegally votes . The result is not 10 dead bodies .
Let's assume someone manages to commit voter 'fraud' by identity.

Such an event is so extremely rare that it will in no way effect the outcome of any election, and because voter 'fraud' is so extremely rare, it is devoid of justification to require a specific type of ID for a citizen to vote, where such a requirement again manifests as an undue burden to the right to vote.

The myth of voter 'fraud' has become an article of religious faith among most conservatives, who incorrectly believe that 'fraud' is why they're losing elections, when in fact republicans lose elections because a majority of the voters reject their candidates, and the failed agenda those candidates represent.

Last, republicans advocate for voter 'ID' laws in bad faith, not out of concern for the 'integrity' of the election process, but in an effort to disadvantage minority voters perceive to be likely democratic voters, where absent their votes, the republican candidate has a 'greater chance of winning.'

If a white person needs a voter-id to vote, and a black person needs a voter-id to vote, how is it the black is disadvantaged?

I have a whole folder of voter fraud stories; at least a couple dozen of them. Voter fraud is alive and well in this country. First you let them tell you it's somehow racial, and then they tell you it isn't happening when it is. I guarantee you that there are way more people that cheated the elections then there could ever be of people not being able to get an ID.
 
You leftwingers are something else. You really believe you aren't hypocrites.

let me tell you. you aren't just hypocrites you are TWO FACED hypocrites.

we see it all the time. so if you joined to stir up shit you WILL get it back two fold

enjoy. you'll be chewed up and spit out in no time. :bye1:nice knowing you
 
Tell me if this sounds familiar ?

"Our constitutional rights shall not be infringed "
"These laws only stop the law abiding , not the criminals"
"These laws don't even work"


What am I talking about ? We'll those are typical responses when the issue of gun control comes into play .

But talk about state issued voter ID , and the conservatives do a 180.

"What's the big deal about getting one of these IDS?" (Fuck your constitutional rights)
"We have to stop voter fraud ". ( it doesn't exist )
"We need to protect the vote " ( this stops more legit voters than any illegal vote)


So much for protecting our freedoms .
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.

Getting an I.D. is an undue burden:uhh:


Not if it's important to you it isn't. I'll be glad to get an ID because voting is that important to me.
 
people in this country is not REQUIRED to vote. so UNLESS they want to bad enough they'll find a way to GET AN ID. if they don't it's NOT OUR PROBLEM

we just don't want to hear you bitch about things if they don't vote. now go get off your lazy ass and get an ID. probably easier than getting a hit of crack or a $10bag of weed
 
Getting an I.D. is an undue burden:uhh:
It is when they have to find the DMV (unless it's next door to the welfare office or the nearest liquor store)...

If u don't have a photo ID , how do u get a photo ID ?
This has been covered in so many thread, its beyond ridiculous that you ask this question....
Who doesn't have a photo ID?
Getting an I.D. is an undue burden:uhh:
It is when they have to find the DMV (unless it's next door to the welfare office or the nearest liquor store)...

If u don't have a photo ID , how do u get a photo ID ?
This has been covered in so many thread, its beyond ridiculous that you ask this question....
Who doesn't have a photo ID?

It's not just a photo ID , it's a specific photo ID . Old people may have some 20 year old ID, that's not acceptable . Student Photo ID from state university . Not acceptable !

Why not ?
Gee, are you actually saying Democrats are too stupid to find the DMV???

Maybe we should Institute an IQ test for voting, to rule out the absolute vegetables, where they don't drool on the voting machines and short them out...
I see you and Staph are still voraciously chowing down on those tard sandwiches.
 
If a white person needs a voter-id to vote, and a black person needs a voter-id to vote, how is it the black is disadvantaged?
It is implicitly obvious in this that blacks are less capable, which is consistent with the Democrat narrative that blacks are childlike, and thus unable to manage simple tasks.
 
Last edited:
If a white person needs a voter-id to vote, and a black person needs a voter-id to vote, how is it the black is disadvantaged?
It is implicitly obvious that blacks are less capable, which is consistent with the Democrat narrative that blacks are childlike, and thus unable to manage simple tasks.

If a party talked about me the way they make black people out to be: as if they are hopeless and helpless. I'd be pissed. It's do degrading and doesn't make them LOOK good at all to the rest of the people in this country. but they don't seem to care for some reason
 
Tell me if this sounds familiar ?

"Our constitutional rights shall not be infringed "
"These laws only stop the law abiding , not the criminals"
"These laws don't even work"


What am I talking about ? We'll those are typical responses when the issue of gun control comes into play .

But talk about state issued voter ID , and the conservatives do a 180.

"What's the big deal about getting one of these IDS?" (Fuck your constitutional rights)
"We have to stop voter fraud ". ( it doesn't exist )
"We need to protect the vote " ( this stops more legit voters than any illegal vote)


So much for protecting our freedoms .
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.
Gee, you have to show an ID to buy a gun...

Maybe you should call Obozo and tell him to make up a law doing away with that requirement...

Then we'll talk...

You have to register to vote.

And let's say someone cheats and illegally votes . The result is not 10 dead bodies .
Let's assume someone manages to commit voter 'fraud' by identity.

Such an event is so extremely rare that it will in no way effect the outcome of any election, and because voter 'fraud' is so extremely rare, it is devoid of justification to require a specific type of ID for a citizen to vote, where such a requirement again manifests as an undue burden to the right to vote.

The myth of voter 'fraud' has become an article of religious faith among most conservatives, who incorrectly believe that 'fraud' is why they're losing elections, when in fact republicans lose elections because a majority of the voters reject their candidates, and the failed agenda those candidates represent.

Last, republicans advocate for voter 'ID' laws in bad faith, not out of concern for the 'integrity' of the election process, but in an effort to disadvantage minority voters perceive to be likely democratic voters, where absent their votes, the republican candidate has a 'greater chance of winning.'

If a white person needs a voter-id to vote, and a black person needs a voter-id to vote, how is it the black is disadvantaged?

I have a whole folder of voter fraud stories; at least a couple dozen of them. Voter fraud is alive and well in this country. First you let them tell you it's somehow racial, and then they tell you it isn't happening when it is. I guarantee you that there are way more people that cheated the elections then there could ever be of people not being able to get an ID.

Post an example of voter fraud . Im calling u out !
 
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.
Gee, you have to show an ID to buy a gun...

Maybe you should call Obozo and tell him to make up a law doing away with that requirement...

Then we'll talk...

You have to register to vote.

And let's say someone cheats and illegally votes . The result is not 10 dead bodies .
Let's assume someone manages to commit voter 'fraud' by identity.

Such an event is so extremely rare that it will in no way effect the outcome of any election, and because voter 'fraud' is so extremely rare, it is devoid of justification to require a specific type of ID for a citizen to vote, where such a requirement again manifests as an undue burden to the right to vote.

The myth of voter 'fraud' has become an article of religious faith among most conservatives, who incorrectly believe that 'fraud' is why they're losing elections, when in fact republicans lose elections because a majority of the voters reject their candidates, and the failed agenda those candidates represent.

Last, republicans advocate for voter 'ID' laws in bad faith, not out of concern for the 'integrity' of the election process, but in an effort to disadvantage minority voters perceive to be likely democratic voters, where absent their votes, the republican candidate has a 'greater chance of winning.'

If a white person needs a voter-id to vote, and a black person needs a voter-id to vote, how is it the black is disadvantaged?

I have a whole folder of voter fraud stories; at least a couple dozen of them. Voter fraud is alive and well in this country. First you let them tell you it's somehow racial, and then they tell you it isn't happening when it is. I guarantee you that there are way more people that cheated the elections then there could ever be of people not being able to get an ID.

Post an example of voter fraud . Im calling u out !

go back and do a search. all this has already been posted about a million times. you need something more than the same old talking points from the leftwing hate site. good luck. you think we don't know there is voter fraud. Hell you lefties loons whined like babies when Gore lost accusing it because of voter fraud. remember the hanging chads? or are you OLD enough? . please get ahold of yourself and find something more to argue about. this is old and stale shit
 
Correct.

The conservative position on the rights enshrined in the Second Amendment and the right to vote is in fact inconsistent.

Most on the right oppose a given gun control measure because they believe that such a measure is devoid of evidence in support of its being enacted, manifesting as an undue burden to the right of an individual to possess a firearm.

Yet conservatives support voter 'ID' laws, although such measures are likewise unwarranted, are devoid of evidence in support of their being implemented, and manifest as an undue burden to the right to vote.
Gee, you have to show an ID to buy a gun...

Maybe you should call Obozo and tell him to make up a law doing away with that requirement...

Then we'll talk...

You have to register to vote.

And let's say someone cheats and illegally votes . The result is not 10 dead bodies .
Let's assume someone manages to commit voter 'fraud' by identity.

Such an event is so extremely rare that it will in no way effect the outcome of any election, and because voter 'fraud' is so extremely rare, it is devoid of justification to require a specific type of ID for a citizen to vote, where such a requirement again manifests as an undue burden to the right to vote.

The myth of voter 'fraud' has become an article of religious faith among most conservatives, who incorrectly believe that 'fraud' is why they're losing elections, when in fact republicans lose elections because a majority of the voters reject their candidates, and the failed agenda those candidates represent.

Last, republicans advocate for voter 'ID' laws in bad faith, not out of concern for the 'integrity' of the election process, but in an effort to disadvantage minority voters perceive to be likely democratic voters, where absent their votes, the republican candidate has a 'greater chance of winning.'

If a white person needs a voter-id to vote, and a black person needs a voter-id to vote, how is it the black is disadvantaged?

I have a whole folder of voter fraud stories; at least a couple dozen of them. Voter fraud is alive and well in this country. First you let them tell you it's somehow racial, and then they tell you it isn't happening when it is. I guarantee you that there are way more people that cheated the elections then there could ever be of people not being able to get an ID.

Post an example of voter fraud . Im calling u out !


Well Timmy, that's a lot of work, especially since Care4All did the same to me yesterday. So instead of posting all those sites again, I'm just going to give you the URL to our discussion yesterday and you can see all the voter fraud stories I posted. It's a little past half way down on the screen:

Why we don't want voter ID | Page 12 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
 
Gee, you have to show an ID to buy a gun...

Maybe you should call Obozo and tell him to make up a law doing away with that requirement...

Then we'll talk...

You have to register to vote.

And let's say someone cheats and illegally votes . The result is not 10 dead bodies .
Let's assume someone manages to commit voter 'fraud' by identity.

Such an event is so extremely rare that it will in no way effect the outcome of any election, and because voter 'fraud' is so extremely rare, it is devoid of justification to require a specific type of ID for a citizen to vote, where such a requirement again manifests as an undue burden to the right to vote.

The myth of voter 'fraud' has become an article of religious faith among most conservatives, who incorrectly believe that 'fraud' is why they're losing elections, when in fact republicans lose elections because a majority of the voters reject their candidates, and the failed agenda those candidates represent.

Last, republicans advocate for voter 'ID' laws in bad faith, not out of concern for the 'integrity' of the election process, but in an effort to disadvantage minority voters perceive to be likely democratic voters, where absent their votes, the republican candidate has a 'greater chance of winning.'

If a white person needs a voter-id to vote, and a black person needs a voter-id to vote, how is it the black is disadvantaged?

I have a whole folder of voter fraud stories; at least a couple dozen of them. Voter fraud is alive and well in this country. First you let them tell you it's somehow racial, and then they tell you it isn't happening when it is. I guarantee you that there are way more people that cheated the elections then there could ever be of people not being able to get an ID.

Post an example of voter fraud . Im calling u out !


Well Timmy, that's a lot of work, especially since Care4All did the same to me yesterday. So instead of posting all those sites again, I'm just going to give you the URL to our discussion yesterday and you can see all the voter fraud stories I posted. It's a little past half way down on the screen:

Why we don't want voter ID | Page 12 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum
lassie-pushed-timmy-down-the-well.jpg
lassie-pushed-timmy-down-the-well.jpg
 
people in this country is not REQUIRED to vote. so UNLESS they want to bad enough they'll find a way to GET AN ID. if they don't it's NOT OUR PROBLEM

we just don't want to hear you bitch about things if they don't vote. now go get off your lazy ass and get an ID. probably easier than getting a hit of crack or a $10bag of weed

Don't let them fool you with this nonsense they can't get an ID. Let me tell you, if any one of these people they are talking about was told there was an $800.00 check they won in a raffle, and the only thing they needed to get that check was a photo-Id, they would have one in less than three hours.
 
people in this country is not REQUIRED to vote. so UNLESS they want to bad enough they'll find a way to GET AN ID. if they don't it's NOT OUR PROBLEM

we just don't want to hear you bitch about things if they don't vote. now go get off your lazy ass and get an ID. probably easier than getting a hit of crack or a $10bag of weed

Don't let them fool you with this nonsense they can't get an ID. Let me tell you, if any one of these people they are talking about was told there was an $800.00 check they won in a raffle, and the only thing they needed to get that check was a photo-Id, they would have one in less than three hours.
If they wanted to get a welfare check and spend it on booze or crack, under an hour... GUARANTEED!!!

And it takes an ID!!!
 
people in this country is not REQUIRED to vote. so UNLESS they want to bad enough they'll find a way to GET AN ID. if they don't it's NOT OUR PROBLEM

we just don't want to hear you bitch about things if they don't vote. now go get off your lazy ass and get an ID. probably easier than getting a hit of crack or a $10bag of weed

Don't let them fool you with this nonsense they can't get an ID. Let me tell you, if any one of these people they are talking about was told there was an $800.00 check they won in a raffle, and the only thing they needed to get that check was a photo-Id, they would have one in less than three hours.

believe me, I know what this is aLL about with them. they need something to stir up hate for the party. it's been tried and beaten to death already. seriously people actually believes their crap
 
people in this country is not REQUIRED to vote. so UNLESS they want to bad enough they'll find a way to GET AN ID. if they don't it's NOT OUR PROBLEM

we just don't want to hear you bitch about things if they don't vote. now go get off your lazy ass and get an ID. probably easier than getting a hit of crack or a $10bag of weed
Wow, now that you mentioned an ID...

Obozocare is a requirement for everybody, and it takes an ID to see a doctor...

It's so nice to see I'm paying higher premiums and deductibles for something the Dimocrats can't even use...
 

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