gun facts for anti gunners...read at own risk...to your beliefs...

[Luddly Neddite]

people...please...do your research...here is an anti gun biased piece from a main stream media news outlet that puts child gun deaths at 500 a year...not true, but even using their stats...that is nowhere near 28,000 deaths over 10 years...

Terrible tally 500 children dead from gunshots every year 7 500 hurt analysis finds - NBC News

Why is this completE horseshit...because the anti gunners always use 17,18,19 year old gang bangers with felony convictions and list them along side all the innocent children killed by criminals and drive by shootings...they are lying...again...and need to be called out...

in the national context, gun deaths are gun deaths. it shouldn't matter if you think they are "innocent" or not.

Nor should age enter into it.

And, our constitution says we're all innocent until proven guilty.

 

[2aguy]

Okay...riddle me this batman...why does Japan...with absolute gun control have a higher rate of suicide than the United States...with all of our guns?

 

[Brain357]

The 100,000 number for crimes stopped is far more accurate, and is frankly still probably too high. I don't know of anyone personally who has ever had to use a gun to stop a crime. Of those crimes stopped you wouldn't need a gun to stop them if some other gun owner hadn't gotten his gun stolen and armed the criminal.

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

This more than outweighs any good done to stop crimes. Guns stolen go right into the hands of criminals.

You are just wrong on this....

Gun murders each year...11-12,000 by criminals

Crimes stopped, lives saved each year by regular people with guns...250-370,000

so you are just wrong...

 

[2aguy]

d" were calling for David Gregory to be "arrested"

Well...perhaps you should understand this before you comment on it...why do I say that...because the reason they called for David Gregory to be arrested was not because he spoke out on the topic of gun violence...but because he was in the possession of and displayed a 30 round magazine on his show....which in the city he was in was a crime...a crime he supports,by calling for banning those magazines...and if you or I had that magazine in the same city he was in we would be arrested....

so please...understand the point before you draw the wrong conclusion...

 

[Luddly Neddite]

 

[2aguy]

The 100,000 number for crimes stopped is far more accurate, and is frankly still probably too high. I don't know of anyone personally who has ever had to use a gun to stop a crime. Of those crimes stopped you wouldn't need a gun to stop them if some other gun owners hadn't gotten his gun stolen and armed the criminal.

actually it is way too low...it comes,from bad research that doesn't take into account gun use that isn't reported because people don't want the hassle of police when the criminal simply ran away when they showed,a,gun...and it doesn't take into account the crimes,stopped and lives,saved,when violent career criminals are shot or captured by victims, and can't move onto their next victim..

did you read the title of this thread....or the actual article the thread comes,from...sorry, a different thread...here is the story I posted separately...

2 guys, with baseball bats were going to kidnap a woman...she pulled a gun and they ran away...they didn't use guns...but if she didn't have the gun she would have been their victim....

Is that what you prefer as the outcome....? If you could, would you have taken that gun from that woman...if you knew beforehand that she was going to be attacked...because that is what you believe...right?

 

[2aguy]

Even the anti gun biased New York Times' numbers come out favorably for guns...even though they try to ignore it...

http://takingnote.blogs.nytimes.com...=true&_type=blogs&_php=true&_type=blogs&_r=1&

A new paper from the Violence Policy Center states that “for the five-year period 2007 through 2011, the total number of self-protective behaviors involving a firearm by victims of attempted or completed violent crimes or property crimes totaled only 338,700.” That comes to an annual average of 67,740 — not nothing, but nowhere near the N.R.A.’s 2 million or 2.5 million.

Note, the violence policy center is an anti gun organization...they hate guns...and even they can't hide the numbers that show guns save more lives than they take...

2007-20011:

Average murders with guns...around 12,000... Giving them the benefit...

So 5 x 12,000 = 60,000 gun mixers in that period...

Average crimes stopped, lives saved each year...according to this anti gunner group...

67, 740

67,740 x 5 = 338,700 lives saved and crimes,stopped..

sooooo....

12,000 vs. 67,740 each year

60,000 vs. 338,700. Over 5 years

Hmmmm...Which are the better numbers....

Again...these are numbers from an honest to goodness gun hating group...and even they can't hide the positive benefits of regular people owning and carrying guns...

and they lie about the numbers too...

 

[Brain357]

One example does not make over 250k examples. Do you have a link to the news story for that one?

This woman was accidently shot and killed by a concealed carry permit holder:

Victim of stray shot visiting before trip to native Iraq www.ajc.com

I'd prefer she was alive.

The 100,000 number for crimes stopped is far more accurate, and is frankly still probably too high. I don't know of anyone personally who has ever had to use a gun to stop a crime. Of those crimes stopped you wouldn't need a gun to stop them if some other gun owners hadn't gotten his gun stolen and armed the criminal.

actually it is way too low...it comes,from bad research that doesn't take into account gun use that isn't reported because people don't want the hassle of police when the criminal simply ran away when they showed,a,gun...and it doesn't take into account the crimes,stopped and lives,saved,when violent career criminals are shot or captured by victims, and can't move onto their next victim..

did you read the title of this thread....or the actual article the thread comes,from...sorry, a different thread...here is the story I posted separately...

2 guys, with baseball bats were going to kidnap a woman...she pulled a gun and they ran away...they didn't use guns...but if she didn't have the gun she would have been their victim....

Is that what you prefer as the outcome....? If you could, would you have taken that gun from that woman...if you knew beforehand that she was going to be attacked...because that is what you believe...right?

 

[2aguy]

One example does not make over 250k examples. Do you have a link to the news story for that one?

Yes I do...I'll find it?.if you read some of my other posts I link to the numbers all the time...

 

[2aguy]

Here is the study from the NorthWestern school of law study...it looks at all the gun studies...keep coming back to this I am updating to get all the study sources posted in one spot for you...

Armed Resistance to Crime The Prevalence and Nature of Self-Defense with a Gun

Nevertheless, among these imperfect surveys, two were relatively good for present purposes. Both the Hart survey in 1981 and the Mauser survey in 1990 were national surveys which asked carefully worded questions directed at all Rs in their samples. Both surveys excluded uses against animals and occupational uses. The two also nicely complemented each other in that the Hart survey asked only about uses of handguns, while the Mauser survey asked about uses of all gun types. The Hart survey results implied a minimum of about 640,000 annual DGUs involving handguns, while the Mauser results implied about 700,000 involving any type of gun.[37] It should be stressed, contrary to the claims of Reiss and Roth,[38] that neither of these estimates entailed the use of "dubious adjustment procedures." The percent of sample households reporting a DGU was simply multiplied by the total number of U.S. households, resulting in an estimate of DGU-involved households. This figure, compiled for a five year period, was then divided by five to yield a per-year figure.

This points out why the anti-gunners, who love the National Crime Victimization Survey, are wrong to trust it for it's numbers...

Equally important, those who take the NCVS-based estimates seriously have consistently ignored the most pronounced limitations of the NCVS for estimating DGU frequency. The NCVS is a non anonymous national survey conducted by a branch of the federal government, the U.S. Bureau of the Census. Interviewers identify themselves to Rs as federal government employees, even displaying, in face-to-face contacts, an identification card with a badge. Rs are told that the interviews are being conducted on behalf of the U.S. Department of justice, the law enforcement branch of the federal government. As a preliminary to asking questions about crime victimization experiences, interviewers establish the address, telephone number, and full names of all occupants, age twelve and over, in each household they contact.[25] In short, it is made very clear to Rs that they are, in effect, speaking to a law enforcement arm of the federal government, whose employees know exactly who the Rs and their family members are, where they live, and how they can be re contacted.

And this is from wikipedia...also, you probably got your number from a guy called Hemenway...an anti-gun researcher whose methods underestimate the use of guns...

Defensive gun use - Wikipedia the free encyclopedia

Hemenway contends the Kleck and Gertz study is unreliable and no conclusions can be drawn from it.[4] He argues that there are too many "false positives" in the surveys, and finds the NCVS figures more reliable, yielding estimates of around 100,000 defensive gun uses per year. Applying different adjustments, other social scientists suggest that between 250,000 and 370,000 incidences per year.[9][10]

Another survey including DGU questions was the National Survey on Private Ownership and Use of Firearms, NSPOF, conducted in 1994 by the Chiltons polling firm for the Police Foundation on a research grant from the National Institute of Justice. NSPOF projected 4.7 million DGU per year by 1.5 million individuals after weighting to eliminate false positives.[8] Discussion over the number and nature of DGU and the implications to gun control policy came to a head in the late 1990s.[11][12]

 

[Brain357]

Then post away. My study says 108,000

https://www.ncjrs.gov/pdffiles/165476.pdf

One example does not make over 250k examples. Do you have a link to the news story for that one?

Yes I do...I'll find it?.if you read some of my other posts I link to the numbers all the time...

 

[Luddly Neddite]

 

[2aguy]

So...even if we accept your number 108,000 each year...which I don't because there are too many things anti-gunners refuse to acknowlege...but for the sake of this discussion let's take your number...vs. 250-370,000 that is probably still too low...

11-12,000 gun murders a year...vs. 108,000 crimes stopped and lives saved...still not winning the argument...

 

[WinterBorn]

What a crock. Why did they recall the Pinto and the Tylenol?? Because they were defective.

Are the guns defective?

Why not recall cars because of the 48k deaths?

 

[2aguy]

Luddly, that cartoon is wrong...of the 32,000 deaths...only 11-12,000 are murders, the rest are suicides and even fewer gun accidents...

11-12,000 gun murders vs. 250-370,000 crimes stopped and lives saved...wow...would you understand that if it was put into a cartoon...?

And to the suicides...again...Japan has almost absolute gun control...and has a higher suicide rate than us...explain that?

 

[2aguy]

Why the National Crime Victimization Survey is wrong...

Data from the NCVS imply that each year there are only about 68,000 defensive uses of guns in connection with assaults and robberies,[16] or about 80,000 to 82,000 if one adds in uses linked with household burglaries.[17] These figures are less than one ninth of the estimates implied by the results of at least thirteen other surveys, summarized in Table 1, most of which have been previously reported.[18] The NCVS estimates imply that about 0.09 of 1% of U.S. households experience a defensive gun use (DGU) in any one year, compared to the Mauser survey's estimate of 3.79% of households over a five year period, or about 0.76% in any one year, assuming an even distribution over the five year period, and no repeat uses.[19]

The strongest evidence that a measurement is inaccurate is that it is inconsistent with many other independent measurements or observations of the same phenomenon; indeed, some would argue that this is ultimately the only way of knowing that a measurement is wrong. Therefore, one might suppose that the gross inconsistency of the NCVS-based estimates with all other known estimates, each derived from sources with no known flaws even remotely substantial enough to account for nine-to-one, or more, discrepancies, would be sufficient to persuade any serious scholar that the NCVS estimates are unreliable.

Also why the anti-gunners get the numbers wrong...

Even under the best of circumstances, reporting the use of a gun for self-protection would be an extremely sensitive and legally controversial matter for either of two reasons. As with other forms of forceful resistance, the defensive act itself, regardless of the characteristics of any weapon used, might constitute an unlawful assault or at least the R might believe that others, including either legal authorities or the researchers, could regard it that way. Resistance with a gun also involves additional elements of sensitivity. Because guns are legally regulated, a victim's possession of the weapon, either in general or at the time of the DGU, might itself be unlawful, either in fact or in the mind of a crime victim who used one. More likely, lay persons with a limited knowledge of the extremely complicated law of either self-defense or firearms regulation are unlikely to know for sure whether their defensive actions or their gun possession was lawful.

 

[Brain357]

And 232,000 guns stolen each year. Yes I am winning. 232,000 guns going right into criminal hands each year.

So...even if we accept your number 108,000 each year...which I don't because there are too many things anti-gunners refuse to acknowlege...but for the sake of this discussion let's take your number...vs. 250-370,000 that is probably still too low...

11-12,000 gun murders a year...vs. 108,000 crimes stopped and lives saved...still not winning the argument...

 

[Brain357]

I see no value in that quote.

Why the National Crime Victimization Survey is wrong...

Data from the NCVS imply that each year there are only about 68,000 defensive uses of guns in connection with assaults and robberies,[16] or about 80,000 to 82,000 if one adds in uses linked with household burglaries.[17] These figures are less than one ninth of the estimates implied by the results of at least thirteen other surveys, summarized in Table 1, most of which have been previously reported.[18] The NCVS estimates imply that about 0.09 of 1% of U.S. households experience a defensive gun use (DGU) in any one year, compared to the Mauser survey's estimate of 3.79% of households over a five year period, or about 0.76% in any one year, assuming an even distribution over the five year period, and no repeat uses.[19]

The strongest evidence that a measurement is inaccurate is that it is inconsistent with many other independent measurements or observations of the same phenomenon; indeed, some would argue that this is ultimately the only way of knowing that a measurement is wrong. Therefore, one might suppose that the gross inconsistency of the NCVS-based estimates with all other known estimates, each derived from sources with no known flaws even remotely substantial enough to account for nine-to-one, or more, discrepancies, would be sufficient to persuade any serious scholar that the NCVS estimates are unreliable.

Also why the anti-gunners get the numbers wrong...

Even under the best of circumstances, reporting the use of a gun for self-protection would be an extremely sensitive and legally controversial matter for either of two reasons. As with other forms of forceful resistance, the defensive act itself, regardless of the characteristics of any weapon used, might constitute an unlawful assault or at least the R might believe that others, including either legal authorities or the researchers, could regard it that way. Resistance with a gun also involves additional elements of sensitivity. Because guns are legally regulated, a victim's possession of the weapon, either in general or at the time of the DGU, might itself be unlawful, either in fact or in the mind of a crime victim who used one. More likely, lay persons with a limited knowledge of the extremely complicated law of either self-defense or firearms regulation are unlikely to know for sure whether their defensive actions or their gun possession was lawful.

 

[2aguy]

Hardly...what part of 250-370,000 lives saved each year isn't sinking in...and those criminals still commit crime...that is the ugly secret to European gun laws...people are still raped, robbed, brutally beaten and murdered...and Britain has a higher violent crime rate than we do...but their victims are expected to quietly accept their fate...to just take it...while our people can stop these monsters...

So they surrender their right to be safe and suffer for it...every day...with rapes, beatings, murders and robberies where the criminals aren't afraid of the victims and know how long it will take the police to arrive...

 

[2aguy]

Therefore, one might suppose that the gross inconsistency of the NCVS-based estimates with all other known estimates, each derived from sources with no known flaws even remotely substantial enough to account for nine-to-one, or more, discrepancies, would be sufficient to persuade any serious scholar that the NCVS estimates are unreliable.

I know...your numbers aren't as good as my numbers...from various sources...some of them from gun hating, anti gunner researchers...even the numbers you posted aren't as good for you as mine...give it time...it will make sense...