Govt used to protect our rights. But now it is "trying to help us". On the wrong track?

[jillian]

our economy sucks, we have a debt so large we can never pay back, terrorists are emboldened by Our weak leader,as a country we go flying off into these tangents like gun control and global warming, both happen to be nonissues.
As a country we have to get our priorities straight, on fiscal issues though it's too late.

So should our priorities be that govt should "help us"?

Or that it should protect our rights but otherwise leave us alone?

well, government is mandated to act for the "general welfare".

sorry little boy... you lose.

 

[jillian]

The first major act of the first Congress was the Tariff Act of 1789,

designed explicitly to HELP the people.

Your premise is bullshit. There was never a time when the government didn't consider part of its role to help Americans.

No, that helped the government pay for the revolutionary war..

it helped the people pay for the war and is proof that "the founders" had no issue with debt

again, the founders never anticipated the current economic world. they only knew and understood an agrarian society.

nor did they ever mandate any particular economic theory.

they did require the government to act for the "general welfare", however.... they never said, make the top 1% rich and let children starve.

 

[TNHarley]

The first major act of the first Congress was the Tariff Act of 1789,

designed explicitly to HELP the people.

Your premise is bullshit. There was never a time when the government didn't consider part of its role to help Americans.

No, that helped the government pay for the revolutionary war..

it helped the people pay for the war and is proof that "the founders" had no issue with debt

again, the founders never anticipated the current economic world. they only knew and understood an agrarian society.

nor did they ever mandate any particular economic theory.

they did require the government to act for the "general welfare", however.... they never said, make the top 1% rich and let children starve.

A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
-Thomas Jefferson
We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
– Thomas Jefferson

I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse, and in a Republican Government a greater curse than any other
– James Madison
When you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty
– Benjamin Franklin

The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own.
– John Adams




They mandated LIBERTY. How many major economic theories evolve around liberty?

 

[Little-Acorn]

So should our priorities be that govt should "help us"?
Or that it should protect our rights but otherwise leave us alone?

well, government is mandated to act for the "general welfare".

The usual falsehood, debunked many times on this forum.

EPA using your money to make people take shorter showers in hotels | Page 10 | US Message Board - Political Discussion Forum

The so-called "Welfare Clause" is a restriction on government, not a broad permission.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The first major act of the first Congress was the Tariff Act of 1789,

designed explicitly to HELP the people.

Your premise is bullshit. There was never a time when the government didn't consider part of its role to help Americans.

No, that helped the government pay for the revolutionary war..

it helped the people pay for the war and is proof that "the founders" had no issue with debt

again, the founders never anticipated the current economic world. they only knew and understood an agrarian society.

nor did they ever mandate any particular economic theory.

they did require the government to act for the "general welfare", however.... they never said, make the top 1% rich and let children starve.

A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
-Thomas Jefferson
We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
– Thomas Jefferson

I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse, and in a Republican Government a greater curse than any other
– James Madison
When you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty
– Benjamin Franklin

The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own.
– John Adams




They mandated LIBERTY. How many major economic theories evolve around liberty?

They didn't mandate anything. They left the entire Constitution open to interpretation and change.

 

[jillian]

The first major act of the first Congress was the Tariff Act of 1789,

designed explicitly to HELP the people.

Your premise is bullshit. There was never a time when the government didn't consider part of its role to help Americans.

No, that helped the government pay for the revolutionary war..

it helped the people pay for the war and is proof that "the founders" had no issue with debt

again, the founders never anticipated the current economic world. they only knew and understood an agrarian society.

nor did they ever mandate any particular economic theory.

they did require the government to act for the "general welfare", however.... they never said, make the top 1% rich and let children starve.

A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
-Thomas Jefferson
We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
– Thomas Jefferson

I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse, and in a Republican Government a greater curse than any other
– James Madison
When you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty
– Benjamin Franklin

The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own.
– John Adams




They mandated LIBERTY. How many major economic theories evolve around liberty?

They didn't mandate anything. They left the entire Constitution open to interpretation and change.

yes... and no. there are certain basic principles that are immutable. but those principles mitigate in favor of protecting minorities and not allowing people to legislate their religious beliefs into law... and protection of our legal system and system of checks and balances.

 

[NYcarbineer]

The first major act of the first Congress was the Tariff Act of 1789,

designed explicitly to HELP the people.

Your premise is bullshit. There was never a time when the government didn't consider part of its role to help Americans.

No, that helped the government pay for the revolutionary war..

That helped the people, dumbass.

"designed explicitly to protect the people"
bullshit

verbatim from the act:

"Whereas it is necessary for that support of government, for the discharge of the debts of the United States, and the encouragement and protection of manufactures, that duties be laid on goods, wares and merchandise:"[1]

Looks to me like the intent to protect is quite explicit there.

 

[Skull Pilot]

 

[NYcarbineer]

The first major act of the first Congress was the Tariff Act of 1789,

designed explicitly to HELP the people.

Your premise is bullshit. There was never a time when the government didn't consider part of its role to help Americans.

No, that helped the government pay for the revolutionary war..

it helped the people pay for the war and is proof that "the founders" had no issue with debt

again, the founders never anticipated the current economic world. they only knew and understood an agrarian society.

nor did they ever mandate any particular economic theory.

they did require the government to act for the "general welfare", however.... they never said, make the top 1% rich and let children starve.

A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
-Thomas Jefferson
We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
– Thomas Jefferson

I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse, and in a Republican Government a greater curse than any other
– James Madison
When you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty
– Benjamin Franklin

The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own.
– John Adams




They mandated LIBERTY. How many major economic theories evolve around liberty?

They didn't mandate anything. They left the entire Constitution open to interpretation and change.

yes... and no. there are certain basic principles that are immutable. but those principles mitigate in favor of protecting minorities and not allowing people to legislate their religious beliefs into law... and protection of our legal system and system of checks and balances.

There is nothing in our Constitution that cannot be constitutionally taken out. There is nothing not in our Constitution that cannot be constitutionally put in.

 

[TNHarley]

The first major act of the first Congress was the Tariff Act of 1789,

designed explicitly to HELP the people.

Your premise is bullshit. There was never a time when the government didn't consider part of its role to help Americans.

No, that helped the government pay for the revolutionary war..

it helped the people pay for the war and is proof that "the founders" had no issue with debt

again, the founders never anticipated the current economic world. they only knew and understood an agrarian society.

nor did they ever mandate any particular economic theory.

they did require the government to act for the "general welfare", however.... they never said, make the top 1% rich and let children starve.

A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
-Thomas Jefferson
We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
– Thomas Jefferson

I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse, and in a Republican Government a greater curse than any other
– James Madison
When you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty
– Benjamin Franklin

The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own.
– John Adams




They mandated LIBERTY. How many major economic theories evolve around liberty?

They didn't mandate anything. They left the entire Constitution open to interpretation and change.

They didn't mandate the job of our 3 branches?
They didn't mandate liberty?
Please explain

 

[jillian]

No, that helped the government pay for the revolutionary war..

it helped the people pay for the war and is proof that "the founders" had no issue with debt

again, the founders never anticipated the current economic world. they only knew and understood an agrarian society.

nor did they ever mandate any particular economic theory.

they did require the government to act for the "general welfare", however.... they never said, make the top 1% rich and let children starve.

A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
-Thomas Jefferson
We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
– Thomas Jefferson

I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse, and in a Republican Government a greater curse than any other
– James Madison
When you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty
– Benjamin Franklin

The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own.
– John Adams




They mandated LIBERTY. How many major economic theories evolve around liberty?

They didn't mandate anything. They left the entire Constitution open to interpretation and change.

yes... and no. there are certain basic principles that are immutable. but those principles mitigate in favor of protecting minorities and not allowing people to legislate their religious beliefs into law... and protection of our legal system and system of checks and balances.

There is nothing in our Constitution that cannot be constitutionally taken out. There is nothing not in our Constitution that cannot be constitutionally put in.

that's a bit broad. there are parameters. and there is an amendment process.

 

[rightwinger]

The Governments job is to do what can be done better collectively than can be done alone and to help those who need helping




.

 

[NYcarbineer]

it helped the people pay for the war and is proof that "the founders" had no issue with debt

again, the founders never anticipated the current economic world. they only knew and understood an agrarian society.

nor did they ever mandate any particular economic theory.

they did require the government to act for the "general welfare", however.... they never said, make the top 1% rich and let children starve.

A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
-Thomas Jefferson
We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
– Thomas Jefferson

I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse, and in a Republican Government a greater curse than any other
– James Madison
When you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty
– Benjamin Franklin

The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own.
– John Adams




They mandated LIBERTY. How many major economic theories evolve around liberty?

They didn't mandate anything. They left the entire Constitution open to interpretation and change.

yes... and no. there are certain basic principles that are immutable. but those principles mitigate in favor of protecting minorities and not allowing people to legislate their religious beliefs into law... and protection of our legal system and system of checks and balances.

There is nothing in our Constitution that cannot be constitutionally taken out. There is nothing not in our Constitution that cannot be constitutionally put in.

that's a bit broad. there are parameters. and there is an amendment process.

Yes and no. By amendment the People could take away your right to vote, as a woman.

Not likely, but the power is there.

 

[jillian]

The first major act of the first Congress was the Tariff Act of 1789,

designed explicitly to HELP the people.

Your premise is bullshit. There was never a time when the government didn't consider part of its role to help Americans.

No, that helped the government pay for the revolutionary war..

it helped the people pay for the war and is proof that "the founders" had no issue with debt

again, the founders never anticipated the current economic world. they only knew and understood an agrarian society.

nor did they ever mandate any particular economic theory.

they did require the government to act for the "general welfare", however.... they never said, make the top 1% rich and let children starve.

A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
-Thomas Jefferson
We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
– Thomas Jefferson

I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse, and in a Republican Government a greater curse than any other
– James Madison
When you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty
– Benjamin Franklin

The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own.
– John Adams




They mandated LIBERTY. How many major economic theories evolve around liberty?

They didn't mandate anything. They left the entire Constitution open to interpretation and change.

They didn't mandate the job of our 3 branches?
They didn't mandate liberty?
Please explain

actually "liberty" is in the declaration of independence (not a law) and not in the constitution. and liberty of one person certainly ends at the others' nose.

 

[jillian]

A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
-Thomas Jefferson
We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
– Thomas Jefferson

I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse, and in a Republican Government a greater curse than any other
– James Madison
When you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty
– Benjamin Franklin

The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own.
– John Adams




They mandated LIBERTY. How many major economic theories evolve around liberty?

They didn't mandate anything. They left the entire Constitution open to interpretation and change.

yes... and no. there are certain basic principles that are immutable. but those principles mitigate in favor of protecting minorities and not allowing people to legislate their religious beliefs into law... and protection of our legal system and system of checks and balances.

There is nothing in our Constitution that cannot be constitutionally taken out. There is nothing not in our Constitution that cannot be constitutionally put in.

that's a bit broad. there are parameters. and there is an amendment process.

Yes and no. By amendment the People could take away your right to vote, as a woman.

Not likely, but the power is there.

they *could* do that by amendment. they *cannot* do it by legislation.

 

[g5000]

Ever since the federal government decided to help the damned slaves, it's been downhill ever since...

 

[jillian]

The Governments job is to do what can be done better collectively than can be done alone and to help those who need helping

that's part of it...

but i'm still wondering why the o/p thinks helping people is somehow unconstitutional.

but no doubt he'll tell you what a good christian he is.

 

[TNHarley]

No, that helped the government pay for the revolutionary war..

it helped the people pay for the war and is proof that "the founders" had no issue with debt

again, the founders never anticipated the current economic world. they only knew and understood an agrarian society.

nor did they ever mandate any particular economic theory.

they did require the government to act for the "general welfare", however.... they never said, make the top 1% rich and let children starve.

A departure from principle becomes a precedent for a second; that second for a third; and so on, till the bulk of society is reduced to mere automatons of misery, to have no sensibilities left but for sinning and suffering… And the fore horse of this frightful team is public debt. Taxation follows that, and in its train wretchedness and oppression.
-Thomas Jefferson
We must not let our rulers load us with perpetual debt.
– Thomas Jefferson

I go on the principle that a public debt is a public curse, and in a Republican Government a greater curse than any other
– James Madison
When you run in debt; you give to another power over your liberty
– Benjamin Franklin

The consequences arising from the continual accumulation of public debts in other countries ought to admonish us to be careful to prevent their growth in our own.
– John Adams




They mandated LIBERTY. How many major economic theories evolve around liberty?

They didn't mandate anything. They left the entire Constitution open to interpretation and change.

They didn't mandate the job of our 3 branches?
They didn't mandate liberty?
Please explain

actually "liberty" is in the declaration of independence (not a law) and not in the constitution. and liberty of one person certainly ends at the others' nose.

So what is the BoR?

 

[g5000]

Voters are realizing that government's main purpose is no longer to protect people's individual rights. Most of what you hear now, and for the last few decades, is that government is "trying to help you". In other words, govt has moved into the business of favoring one group over another.

With this change, it has begun imposing its rules and restrictions based not on the complete equality under law demanded by the Constitution, but on constantly-changing standards of "deserving". Such as whether they are minorities, whether they are in unions, whether they own land where the snail darter or spotted owl lives, whether they are poor, etc. (Needless to say, people who have earned and saved a lot of money, are at the bottom of this "favored-group" list.)

So, many of those voters have inserted another qualification on whom they will vote for, for President. Their preferred candidate must be one who will favor them above others. The candidate who "will do more for them".

Since such selfish (and even larcenous) desires are not socially acceptable, they couch it in innocent-sounding phrases such as "I want a candidate who understands me", or "I want a candidate who sympathizes with the problems I am facing".

Back when government's only functions were national defense, coining money, setting standards, dealing with foreign nations, prosecuting certain crimes etc., such "sympathizing" was unnecessary. People tended to vote for the candidate they thought could handle the actual, legitimate functions of government better. And they tended to vote for stern, fatherly figures such as George Washington, Andrew Jackson, Abraham Lincoln, Grover Cleveland etc. Leaders whom they thought would enforce the laws impartially and deal with challenges sternly and with some degree of integrity.

But now, government's main function has changed. It spends more and more time and money (especially money) trying to relieve you of the everyday problems in your own personal life (distributing health care, controlling the people around you and regulating what they built, what they sold you, what they said in your hearing, planning your retirement savings for you, deciding for you what your children could eat in school, and generally saving you from your own follies and mistakes). And as a result, more and more voters have now decided that it is more important to have a President they can count on to favor them, more than he favors people not like them.

So we're getting candidates who fight to "give" them health care based on how much they need rather than how hard they work to pay for what they get. Candidates who favor those who "need more", over those who managed to provide their own without the assistance of government. And those candidates get voted for more often than candidates who promise to make sure nobody stops you from earning enough to pay for your own health care. Same for candidates who promise to get you into college due to your skin color or national origin, over candidates who promise to make sure you have the same (and no more) chance to get into college regardless of your skin color... but leave it up to you to pay for it yourself.

Back when such matters were none of government's business, there was no point in voting for the more "sympathetic" candidate. And people would even wonder what kind of slippery trick you were trying to pull if you wanted someone who promised to make sure a pound of grain would weigh more at your mill than at the next town's mill... weights and measures being one of the few legitimate functions of government the candidate would actually be able to influence, in obedience to the Constitution.

And people's response to these governments whose main job is to hand out favors, as they have always responded to socialistic governments throughout history (including govts with those characteristics long before the term "socialism" was invented), is inevitable. Even the people with personal integrity, who wanted to stick to the old rules of actual fairness and impartiality, have started to see that it is now a losing gambit. If they don't try to sway government into favoring them more than their neighbor, they will simply find government favoring them far less and oppressing them even more.

And so, one by one, honest people gradually release their fealty toward stern, impartial government that stays out of their lives. And one by one, they throw in their lot with the people already trying to cadge more favors from government, whether in the name of "making reparations for the wrongs done by previous generations" or "providing health care to those who don't have it (itself a misleading lie)". And they do their best to vote for the candidate who (they will righteously tell you) "understands my own plight a little better" or "sympathizes for people in my particular position". Of course, these are both phrases that boil down to "he will do more good things for me, and relax the regulations a little more for me, than he will for the other guy."

Some people wonder why politicians pushing such favoritism, get so many votes. One explanation sometimes offered, is "voter fraud".

But in a sense, voter fraud isn't just fraud perpetrated AGAINST voters. There's another kind: The subtle fraud perpetrated BY voters against their fellow men, in an attempt to get government "on my side and not on your side".

And though subtle, this other kind of fraud is the most pernicious in the long run, since it causes the remaining fair, upright voters to abandon, one by one, their dedication to truly impartial government, and go over to supporting corruptible, me-over-you government.

And as more people go over to this corruptible, me-over-you government, this puts more pressure on the remaining (and now dwindling) individual citizens who were trying to play fair and maintain their integrity, to give up that integrity, and follow.

Many of the people pushing for big government "helping" people, don't intend for society to deteriorate, of course.

But the fact is, that is the inevitable result, when govt tries to "help" people.

1.) It turns into a pushing and shoving match, trying to get govt to help you more than it helps the other guy;
2.) Hardworking people who don't want govt favor, are persuaded one after the other to give up and seek favor anyway. While NO people are ever persuaded to go the other way. The result is a slow slide into dependence, with no particular urge to stop.

We are seeing the United States slide down this path, at an ever-increasing rate. Where people used to vote for Presidents based on how well they would defend the country, enforce our laws, and protect our rights, now the President's most ardent supporters crow over how popular he is, what a nice guy he is, and how "unfeeling" the opposing candidates were.

It is a sea change we can ill afford to ignore, and even less afford to indulge in. But is it one that can still be reversed?

http://www.amazon.com/The-Road-Serfdom-Fiftieth-Anniversary/dp/0226320618&tag=ff0d01-20

 

[g5000]

actually "liberty" is in the declaration of independence (not a law) and not in the constitution.

I guess you have never read it.

Start with the Preamble:

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defence, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.