GopJeff and the Person(s) in the Trinity

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Originally posted by Yurt

I posted the original reply, BECAUSE you never answered the question. My intent on asking the question should not matter if you have the truth. I all ask was that you answer the question.

Yurt I am attempting to determine your original QUESTION so that I may reply to it.

Your original post:
First, it is absolutely incorrect to compare the memory of people today with those 2000 years ago. With so much mass media people barely remember what happened on 9/11. Back then, it was not so. In fact, before there was mass education, most people did not know how to read or write. So history was past down via orally. This custom is still practiced in many indigengous tribes. So the fact that the story was told orally then written down at a later date is really no big deal, if you consider the time period, which you must, because it is not at all comparable to today.

In the time of Jesus and specifically in the holy land, the majority of the people were for the most part very educated and learned even without mass media newspapers or TV.

In those days, most every boy child was required to read, write and learn from childhood. The same as with Jesus and every young male, they went to school and even after they went to work as young adults were required to continue learing and studying their Biblical texts (Torah and the Talmud) concerning subjects such as civil laws, rules dealing with daily activity between one's fellow men and women, trade, ethics, criminal law and many more subjects. This is what is referred to in the NT Gospel that Jesus went to study with the Rabbis in the Synagogues which also infers that the majority of all males in those days and continues to this very day but to a lesser degree now with Jewish children.

Girl children were not required to learn and study to the same extent but were required to mainly learn the duties and obligations of Jewish women in the home and family.

So your contention that people were uneducated as compared to today is incorrect. This word of mouth to other word to mouth information was incorrect. There was a historian of the day by the name of Josephus. A Jewish man who under the rules of the Roman government actually wrote down the history of that time as derived from observation and perusing the library of information provided by the Romans. We actually have a record of the events of those days. The fact that Josephus history even in a small part spoke of the man Jesus is now pretty much accepted to be later additions to Josephus history by Christian revisionists in an attempt for proof of Jesus.

http://www.africawithin.com/religion/jesus_puzzle.htm

The Gospel Jesus and his story is equally missing from the non-Christian record of the time. Philo of Alexandria, the Jewish historian Justus of Tiberias, Pliny the Elder as collector of reputed natural phenomena, early Roman satirists and philosophers: all are silent. Pliny the Younger, in his letter to Trajan from Bithynia c.112, does not speak of Christ in historical terms. Josephus’ famous passage in Antiquities 18 is acknowledged to be, as it stands, a Christian interpolation, and arguments that an original reference to Jesus either stood there or can be distilled from the present one, founder on the universal silence about such a reference on the part of Christian commentators until the 4th century.2 As for the reference in Antiquities 20 to James as "brother of Jesus, the one called (the) Christ", this passage also bears the marks of Christian interference.3 The phrase originally used by Josephus may have been the same designation which Paul gives to James (Galatians 1:19), namely "brother of the Lord," which would have referred not to a sibling relationship with Jesus, but to James’ position in the Jerusalem brotherhood, something which was probably widely known. A Christian copyist could later have altered the phrase (under the influence of Matthew 1:16) to render it more "historical" after Jesus of Nazareth was developed. [For a complete examination (and partial rethinking) of the Josephus question, see Supplementary Article No 10: Josephus Unbound: Reopening the Josephus Question.]

See the Flavius Josephus translation history of those times at:

http://www.biblenet.net/library/josephus/warTOC.html

Second, if you really believe that a stone tablet is comparable with today's writing standards, please, give me something better. It was not until the printing press that mass media began to be available. That was my point, there was NOT mass media back then. Therefore, most people handed down stories through oral history.

Actually I was attempting to demonstrate that the ability of mankind to write on a media existed long before the time of Jesus Christ as seen by the time frame of the first known attempt by man to put down words on a stone media.

Oral histories soon became distorted as is the nature of the human mind. The only exception is that if one man was required to memorize one simple line or paragraph and pass it on to another man verbatim to memorize the same identical words and on to another. There is no evidence that this was the way the NT was passed onto the Gospel writers some 60 to 90 years after the death of Jesus on the cross.
 
Originally posted by ajwps
ALRIGHTY LET ME DISPROVE YOUR PROOF OF NT PROPHECY
So this NT prophecy really meant throughout Jerusalem and not througout the world. SO VERY SORRY....

Yep I have now disproved your contention that the NT prophecy you picked out does not mean throughout the world but really throughout Jerusalem which in Acts 11:28 is what it really says

:laugh:

Keep being sorry.

You ignore history claiming famine in all of Rome, and decide to believe a twisted view that a famine only occured in Jerusalem.

You take the term "world wide" and decide that somehow it only applies to Jerusalem.

Way to go AJ.

I hope you don't treat your patients the same way.

Do you give them root canals instead of treating their problem areas too?
 
In the NT, the Apostles of Jesus were sent to go preach the Gospel to ALL THE WORLD. This did not mean just to Jerusalem. Nor did it mean to the entire globe, as they couldn't have possibly reached Australia, Japan, America, etc. The concept of the "whole world" in biblical times pertained to (but not necessarily limited to) northern africa (like Egypt), southern europe (like Rome and Greece), and today's middle east (Arabian peninsula, Palestine, Turkey, Mesopotamia, etc.). I can hardly believe that a prophecy directed at the "whole world" would only entail Jerusalem and its surroundings.

-Douglas
 
Originally posted by NewGuy
:eek: Keep being sorry. You ignore history claiming famine in all of Rome, and decide to believe a twisted view that a famine only occured in Jerusalem. You take the term "world wide" and decide that somehow it only applies to Jerusalem. Way to go AJ. I hope you don't treat your patients the same way. Do you give them root canals instead of treating their problem areas too?

And you ingnore your own NT Gospel PROPHECY verse that you think proves a prophecy has come about. Do you understand that you have just admitted defeat and that your only NT prophecy verse has been disproved by recorded history and your own Christian reinterpreation of 'whole world' just being 'the whole of Jerusalem.'

Have you ever read the NT Gospels? Pick one up at your next No Tell Motel room during your next 15 minute stay.

Acts 11-28

And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Can you give me another NT prophecy that you think has come about since the Gospels were written???????
 
Originally posted by Shazbot

In the NT, the Apostles of Jesus were sent to go preach the Gospel to ALL THE WORLD. This did not mean just to Jerusalem. Nor did it mean to the entire globe, as they couldn't have possibly reached Australia, Japan, America, etc. The concept of the "whole world" in biblical times pertained to (but not necessarily limited to) northern africa (like Egypt), southern europe (like Rome and Greece), and today's middle east (Arabian peninsula, Palestine, Turkey, Mesopotamia, etc.). I can hardly believe that a prophecy directed at the "whole world" would only entail Jerusalem and its surroundings. Douglas

What we believe to be true in recorded history may not always be equivalent.

Remember that all we know about ancient history is what is recored and pesent for all people to read right now.

When you base you beliefs on WORDS like 'whole world' and find out that this only refers to the 'whole world around oneself' then you cannot extrapolate that to mean a prophecy has come true.

I gave an example of a prophecy that was written down by the prophet Jeremiah that fits into events that happened in the now. There is simply no way to know for certain that those prophetic words referred to what seems to be exactly what happened here and now in Iraq.

The prophecy that Jesus will return is one that should be in the future. When and if it happens, many will be surprised but if Jesus never returns there will be many surprised.
 
:clap: :cof:
And you ingnore your own NT Gospel PROPHECY verse that you think proves a prophecy has come about. Do you understand that you have just admitted defeat and that your only NT prophecy verse has been disproved by recorded history and your own Christian reinterpreation of 'whole world' just being 'the whole of Jerusalem.'

Do you understand your ignorance of original GREEK?


Acts 11:28 anastaV <450> (5631) de <1161> {AND HAVING RISEN UP} eiV <1520> {ONE} ex <1537> {FROM AMONG} autwn <846> {THEM,} onomati <3686> {BY NAME} agaboV <13> {AGABUS,} eshmanen <4591> (5656) {HE SIGNIFIED} dia <1223> {BY} tou <3588> {THE} pneumatoV <4151> {SPIRIT,} limon <3042> {A FAMINE} megan <3173> {GREAT} mellein <3195> (5721) {IS ABOUT} esesqai <2071> (5705) {TO BE} ef <1909> {OVER} olhn <3650> {WHOLE} thn <3588> {THE} oikoumenhn <3625> {HABITABLE WORLD;} ostiV <3748> {WHICH} kai <2532> {ALSO} egeneto <1096> (5633) {CAME TO PASS} epi <1909> {UNDER} klaudiou <2804> {CLAUDIUS} kaisaroV <2541> {CAESAR.}

Yeah, AJ, you look real smart, now.

Since when is "Jerusalem" in there?
 
Originally posted by NewGuy

[]:clap: :cof: Do you understand your ignorance of original GREEK? Acts 11:28 anastaV <450> (5631) de <1161> {AND HAVING RISEN UP} eiV <1520> {ONE} ex <1537> {FROM AMONG} autwn <846> {THEM,} onomati <3686> {BY NAME} agaboV <13> {AGABUS,} eshmanen <4591> (5656) {HE SIGNIFIED} dia <1223> {BY} tou <3588> {THE} pneumatoV <4151> {SPIRIT,} limon <3042> {A FAMINE} megan <3173> {GREAT} mellein <3195> (5721) {IS ABOUT} esesqai <2071> (5705) {TO BE} ef <1909> {OVER} olhn <3650> {WHOLE} thn <3588> {THE} oikoumenhn <3625> {HABITABLE WORLD;} ostiV <3748> {WHICH} kai <2532> {ALSO} egeneto <1096> (5633) {CAME TO PASS} epi <1909> {UNDER} klaudiou <2804> {CLAUDIUS} kaisaroV <2541> {CAESAR.} Yeah, AJ, you look real smart, now. Since when is "Jerusalem" in there? [/i]

Yes I understand that you understand that the prophecy in ACTS 11;28 never happened around the world. Available records of the time DOES NOT BACK UP THIS GOSPEL PROPHECY. Your own Christian sites admit that there was no worldwide famine as described in Acts.

Quoting a NT verse without any recorded evidence that it happened is just another verse without any prophecy being fulfilled. Give it up. Your proof has been disproved conslusively.

Come on. Give another prophecy now that you have not proved this NT Gospel verse proved correct in any records of that time that exist now.
 
Originally posted by ajwps

Yes I understand that you understand that the prophecy in ACTS 11;28 never happened around the world. Available records of the time DOES NOT BACK UP THIS GOSPEL PROPHECY. Your own Christian sites admit that there was no worldwide famine as described in Acts.

Lets get one thing straight.

Until you figure out how to use the quote function, you will only serve to further confuse yourself and others. -Maybe that is why you do it. You cannot gain a foothold anywhere without adding confusion to the situation.

When you want to put something in quotes, you can avoid confusion by manually typing [*quote] and [*/quote] around the text (minus the asterisks).

Second:
You say you understand I understand the prophecy never happened around the world. You again ignore specific Biblical wording. The Bible tells you exactly what happened and I gave you historical evidence as to how often famines occured and where in the timeframe given. These neutral sources specifically state there were 2 in the reign of the Caesar referenced in scripture--hence showing scripture PROVEN.

What I understand, despite your statement to the contrary, is that the Bible is FLAWLESS as written and dictated by the textus receptus. You, on the other hand, cannot admit it. Do not attempt to put YOUR doubt on me as MY DOUBT. I have none. I KNOW the Bible true, it is PROVEN.

THIRD:
You say MY Christian websites admit there was no worldwide famine as described. You ought to stop lying and slandering. You are wearing on my last nerve.

You know nothing about MY website. Not only that, you aren't smart enough to FIND IT.

Additionally, if you DID find it, you might gain a few IQ points and realize how off base you are.

You might actually learn how to be a REAL doctor as well.

Unlike you, I didn't USE A WEBSITE to believe one way or the other. I believe the Bible based on the fact that when it makes a claim, evidence can be found to back it up. I didn't look at any "Christian" website in this entire discussion. -I usually DON'T.

Why?

I have a brain. Only idiots who want to troll need to swipe arguments from websites and have no concept of what they are arguing. I have full knowledge of what makes the Bible provable, while you cannot even understand context of a verse.

Quit acting like you know something because you are some high and mighty podiatrist masquerading as a know-it-all infallible emporer of medicine. This God complex you have does nothing but blind you to the most basic sense of logic and insults the rest of us for even discussing anything with you.

I have never once seen you relay ANYTHING of value here, merely inflict your false image of some god of medicine and Old Testament scripture. Both are a farce, and you proved it many times by your former (now banned) alter ego Mustaffa.

The way you act makes me want to puke, and you insult left and right just to inflate your ego, then twist everyone elses words because you cannot bow to learning a quote function. Learning the quote function would mean you didn't know something about it before. That would insult your ego.

If all you want to do is stir up crap, quit asking us to waste our time by honestly adressing your questions with logic and proof when all you want to do is troll.

No matter what your reply is to this post remember one thing:

All the proof of my accusations are in this board as archived posts which can easily be restored or quoted from to prove the point of your behavior, and the fact I adressed all of your points with factual evidence.
 
Originally posted by NewGuy

Lets get one thing straight. Until you figure out how to use the quote function, you will only serve to further confuse yourself and others. -Maybe that is why you do it. You cannot gain a foothold anywhere without adding confusion to the situation. When you want to put something in quotes, you can avoid confusion by manually typing [*quote] and [*/quote] around the text (minus the asterisks).

What are you talking about? That is exactly what I have been doing. No one but you has any trouble seeing my quotes placed exactly as you described. Why in the world would you type asterisks in your reply. I never have....

Second:What I understand, despite your statement to the contrary, is that the Bible is FLAWLESS as written and dictated by the textus receptus. You, on the other hand, cannot admit it. Do not attempt to put YOUR doubt on me as MY DOUBT. I have none. I KNOW the Bible true, it is PROVEN.

Can you provide some proof or site of an original copy of this Textus Receptus document?

THIRD:
You say MY Christian websites admit there was no worldwide famine as described. You ought to stop lying and slandering. You are wearing on my last nerve.

Why don't you submit an original copy of the Gospels or the Textus Receptus? Without substantiating anything but your own belief is not proof of anything.

The world would love to see an original NT Gospel written by the original author (like the Dead Sea Scrolls written before the NT). Without the original text somewhere in the world you have NO PROOF of the authentisity of any Good News fictional novels....

Unlike you, I didn't USE A WEBSITE to believe one way or the other. I believe the Bible based on the fact that when it makes a claim, evidence can be found to back it up. I didn't look at any "Christian" website in this entire discussion. -I usually DON'T.

What? You have used a website proof to say that there was a 'world wide famine' during the reign of Claudias Ceasar. Then you deny an english copy of the historian Josephus who was there and told it like it was. There was no worldwide famine or DEARTH. Just a local one which contradicts the NT prophecy.

Your nerves are finished being frayed as any further faith based proof is worthless. Believe what you will, it didn't happen. You don't like my behavior because you have been shown to avoid the obvious fact that there is no NT Act prophecy.

The remainder of your post is nonsense and has no valid meaning except in your own mind.

If you can provide archeological or historical test proof, then we can continue this discussion otherwise end denying you failed.
 
Wrong AJ. I've asked you many times to use the quote function properly. But you refuse, out of spite, I guess. Please use it. I for another find posts clearer when they are formatted properly.
 
NewGuy

Hey I found a site with the origin of the Textus Receptus and its original work by the kinsmen Bonaventure and Abraham Elzevir.

For a project that had taken fifty years to get started, the success of Erasmus's edition (which contained his Greek text in parallel with his own Latin version) was astonishing. The first printing soon sold out, and by 1519 a new edition was required. Three more would follow, each somewhat improved over the last.

It is sad to report that such a noble undertaking was so badly handled (all the more so since it became the basis of Luther's German translation, and later -- with some slight modifications -- of the English King James Version). The speed with which the book went through the press meant that it contained literally thousands of typographical errors. What is more, the text was hastily and badly edited from a few late manuscripts (see below, The Text of the Textus Receptus).

http://www.skypoint.com/~waltzmn/TR.html#Origin

See how easy it is to find. Take a look at a copy of one of the ORIGINAL pages of this 16th century work done by those who, like you, believed that the original Gospels actually were more than fictionalized novels.
 
Originally posted by ajwps

Can you provide some proof or site of an original copy of this Textus Receptus document?

Why?

I provide you with original Greek which says " {A FAMINE} megan <3173> {GREAT} mellein <3195> (5721) {IS ABOUT} esesqai <2071> (5705) {TO BE} ef <1909> {OVER} olhn <3650> {WHOLE} thn <3588> {THE} oikoumenhn <3625> {HABITABLE WORLD;} ostiV <3748> {WHICH} kai <2532> {ALSO} egeneto <1096> (5633) {CAME TO PASS} epi <1909> {UNDER} klaudiou <2804> {CLAUDIUS} kaisaroV <2541> {CAESAR.}"

You claim it says Jerusalem.

What the heck good would it do going any further?

Why don't you submit an original copy of the Gospels or the Textus Receptus? Without substantiating anything but your own belief is not proof of anything.

Right.

Historical evidence proving a text written almost 2000 years ago was a prophecy has no basis but my own belief.

:rolleyes:

The world would love to see an original NT Gospel written by the original author (like the Dead Sea Scrolls written before the NT). Without the original text somewhere in the world you have NO PROOF of the authentisity of any Good News fictional novels....

Since it isn't a "good news fictional novel", you are right.

It is a historically, scientifically provable divine text written by INSPIRED authors which remains unshakable.

What? You have used a website proof to say that there was a 'world wide famine' during the reign of Claudias Ceasar.

No. I used history to back up the proof. The proof is the obvious fact in any history book that tells you of Roman times and the details of events under Caesars will mention the famine(s) under the one in question. I merely backed it up FOR YOU since you kept refusing to check it out yourself.

Even your proof showed famine under the Caesar in question.

Case closed.

Then you deny an english copy of the historian Josephus who was there and told it like it was. There was no worldwide famine or DEARTH. Just a local one which contradicts the NT prophecy.

I deny your vagueness of detail as proof. I also deny your inability to understand context as liniar logic.

Your nerves are finished being frayed as any further faith based proof is worthless. Believe what you will, it didn't happen. You don't like my behavior because you have been shown to avoid the obvious fact that there is no NT Act prophecy.

I don't like your behavior for the reasons mentioned which fray my nerves.

The remainder of your post is nonsense and has no valid meaning except in your own mind.

If you can provide archeological or historical test proof, then we can continue this discussion otherwise end denying you failed.

No.

I will end it in an ADMISSION of failure.

My failure was in assuming that since you have the ability to get to work every day, you ought to be able to understand what I presented.

I failed to prove such a thing.
 
Originally posted by rtwngAvngr

Wrong AJ. I've asked you many times to use the quote function properly. But you refuse, out of spite, I guess. Please use it. I for another find posts clearer when they are formatted properly.

You have asked many times and now you look for other posts that are a part of your choir. You don't like having being proved erroneous.
 
Aj. Where do you get off being such a creep? Your religion is just a bunch of stories too, if you want to look at it that way . So step off. And talk to the hand.

I realize than in your rush of jewy zeal you get carried away, but try to be a human being.
 
Originally posted by ajwps
You have asked many times and now you look for other posts that are a part of your choir. You don't like having being proved erroneous.

i'm saying that it's a lie when you say no one else has mentioned it, as you said to newguy. You're a liar is what it means.
 
Originally posted by NewGuy
Why?

Historical evidence proving a text written almost 2000 years ago was a prophecy has no basis but my own belief.

It is a historically, scientifically provable divine text written by INSPIRED authors which remains unshakable.


No. I used history to back up the proof. The proof is the obvious fact in any history book that tells you of Roman times and the details of events under Caesars will mention the famine(s) under the one in question. I merely backed it up FOR YOU since you kept refusing to check it out yourself. Even your proof showed famine under the Caesar in question.


Super responses...... Obviously you can't prove anything but your own unshakable FAITH without earthly proof.

I will end it in an ADMISSION of failure.

signed NewGuy
 
Originally posted by ajwps
Super responses...... Obviously you can't prove anything but your own unshakable FAITH without earthly proof.



signed NewGuy

Is your god complex satisfied now?

In your haste to be stupid, you don't even know what I admitted I was wrong in.
 
Originally posted by NewGuy
Is your god complex satisfied now?

In your haste to be stupid, you don't even know what I admitted I was wrong in.

I've trounced aj a couple times. He likes it. Bend over, hershchel!
 
Originally posted by rtwngAvngr
I've trounced aj a couple times. He likes it. Bend over, hershchel!

I seem to do it continuously but he keeps ignoring it and asking for more.

Think he was molested by his dad who was a brain surgeon or something?

You would think at 35 he would have at least moved out under such conditions.
 
Originally posted by NewGuy
I seem to do it continuously but he keeps ignoring it and asking for more.

Think he was molested by his dad who was a brain surgeon or something?

You would think at 35 he would have at least moved out under such conditions.

Keep Dreaming
 
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