Jesus, Christianity, God and corruption

Discussion in 'Religion and Ethics' started by josephignatius, Jul 4, 2004.

  1. josephignatius
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    Jesus is a fundamentally important character in both the Christian and Islamic faits. There is much dispute over what his message was and what he required. I think this was Jesus' message was very clear, and I think it was this:

    Jesus was a Jew, and the purpose he claimed for his coming was to give the final and true account for how God must be served, not just by Jews, but by everyone. He came not to start a new religion, but to clarify that one that already existed. And his fate was to fulfil the prophecies in the scriptures, so that they would thus be finalised and completed. [Mt 5:17] Do not imagine that I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets. I have come not to abolish but to complete them.

    And this was what he taught. [Mt 22:37] You must love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the greatest and the first commandment. [Mt 22:38] The second resembles it: You must love your neighbour as yourself. [Mt 7:12] Always treat others as you would like them to treat you.

    [Mt 22:40] On these two commandments hang the whole Law and Prophets. [Mt 5:19] The man who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven.

    He taught that after himself, [Mt 23:27] you must not allow yourselves to be called teachers, for you have only one teacher, the Christ.
    His teachings were the final teachings and any teachings thenceforth had to be completely his teachings. [Lk 6:40] The fully trained disciple will always be like his teacher.
    It would not be acceptable to adapt his teachings in any way, because he had taught the final teachings. A true disciple would teach these very same teachings, because they would be like the original teacher himself. So Jesus said [Mt 12:36] for every unfounded word men utter they will answer on Judgement day.
    [Mt 10:24] The disciple is not superior to his teacher [Mt 10:25] It is enough for the disciple that he would grow to be like his teacher,
    [Mt 23:11] Anyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.

    [Jn 14:23] If anyone loves me he will keep my word, and my Father will love him. [Jn 14:24] Those who do not love me do not keep my words. And my word is not my own: it is the word of the one who sent me.

    [Mt 9:39] It is for Judgement that I have come into this world, so that those without sight may see, and those with sight turn blind.

    And keeping the commandments is nothing less than accepting a completely different way of life, because they mean that [Lk 9:48] the least amongst you all, that is the one who is great. [Mt 23:11] Anyone who humbles himself will be exalted.

    This is the opposite way to how the world naturally operates, because the least amongst us all are the ones treated as though they are the least, and the greatest as though they are the greatest. The least serve the greatest but the greatest do not serve the least in the same way. So the great become greater, and the least become less. [Mk 10:42] Among the pagans, their great men make their authority felt. [Mk 10:43] This must not happen among you. No; anyone who wants to become great among you must be your servant, [Mk 10:44] and anyone who wants to be first among you must be the slave to all.

    There is no middle ground in his message; no corners can be cut. One has to place himself or herself last behind everyone. It is all or nothing. [Mt 12:30] He who is not with me is against me, and he who is does not gather with me scatters.

    It is a choice between perfection and imperfection. And Jesus presented only one choice: [Mt 4:48] You must be as perfect just as the heavenly Father is perfect.

    Perfection is the requirement. And it is up to the individual if he wishes to attain it. And perfection entails several things. [Mt 19:21] If you wish to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; then come, follow me.

    [Lk 14:33] None of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions. [Lk 14:29] Otherwise onlookers would all start making fun of him saying [Lk 14:30] Here is a man who started to build, but was unable to finish!

    It is a choice between material riches and spiritual riches. [Mt 6:19] Do not store up treasures for yourselves on earth, where moths and woodworms destroy them and thieves can break in and steal. [Mt 6:20] But store up treasures for yourselves in heaven, where neither moth nor woodworms destroy them and thieves cannot break in and steal. [Mt 6:21] For where your treasure is, there will your heart be also. If one is not prepared to renounce their posessions on earth, their treasures will be on earth, and not in heaven. And heaven is a kingdom of love, and love is invisible and cannot be bought with money.

    And perfection involves becoming a purely loving individual, with no hatred or malice towards anyone. Since God is love, so when one is perfectly loving, they are one with God. So Jesus said [Lk 6:27] Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, [Lk 6:28] bless those who curse you, pray for those who treat you badly. [Lk 6:29] To the man who slaps you on the one cheek, present the other cheek too; to the man who takes your cloak from you, do not refuse your tunic. [Lk 6:30] Give to everybody who asks of you, and do not ask for your property back from the man who robs you. [Lk 6:31]Treat others as you would like them to treat you.

    Imperfection is no longer justified, since Jesus showed that it can be attained. And [Mt 5:19] the man who infringes even one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be considered the least in the kingdom of heaven.

    Renouncing ones possessions is only the first requirement. If that is not fulfilled, the others cannot be. It is only the first hurdle of many. [Lk 16:10] The man who can be trusted in little things can be trusted in great; the man dishonest in little things will be dishonest in great. [Lk 16:11] If you then cannot be trusted with money, that tainted thing, who will trust you with genuine riches?

    [Lk 17:1] Obstacles are sure to come, but alas for the one who provides them! [Lk 17:2] It would be better to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied put round his neck than that he should lead a single one of these little ones [Lk 17:3] Watch yourselves!

    [Lk 16:9] Use money, tainted as it is, to win you friends. [Lk 6:35] Love your enemies and do good, and lend without any hope of return.

    [Lk 14:33] None of you can be my disciple unless he gives up all his possessions. [Mt 5:48] You must be as perfect just as the heavenly Father is perfect.

    Anyone who settles for imperfection is damned because though he aspires to attain it, he stops himself from attaining it. It can only lead to a downward spiral. [Jn 3:18] God sent his Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that through him the world might be saved. No one who believes in him will be condemned, but whoever refuses to believe is condemned already, because he has refused to believe.

    So, [Jn 14:1] do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God still, and trust in me. [Mt 6:31] Do not say ‘What are we to eat? What are we to drink? How are we to be clothed?" [Mt 6:32] It is the pagans who set they hearts on these things. Your heavenly Father knows you need them all. [Mt 6:33] Set your hearts on his kingdom first, and on his righteousness, and all these other things will be given to you as well. [Mt 6:34] So do not worry about tomorrow: tomorrow will take care of itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.

    It is a simple choice between God or money; perfection or imperfection; heaven or hell. [Mt 6:24] No one can be the slave of two masters: he will either hate the first and love the second, or treat the first with respect and the second with scorn. You cannot be the slave of two masters. You cannot be the slave of God and money.

    Because Godliness is giving for the sake of giving, but money represents giving for the sake of taking. God is giving, money taking. God is love, money is hate. God cannot exist with the existence of money.

    It is for that reason that Jesus said money must be used in a purely loving way, by giving it without expectation. The poor can only give love in return, and how much more valuable that is than anything else is. [Mt 19:21] If you wish to be perfect, go and sell what you own and give the money to the poor.

    [Jn 14:23] If anyone loves me he will keep my word, and my Father will love him. [Jn 14:24] Those who do not love me do not keep my words. And my word is not my own: it is the word of the one who sent me.

    Jesus had nothing to give but love. He had no material wealth, but he did not want it in the first place. And the same must be true if one is to call himself or herself a follower of his. [Jn 12:26] If a man serves me, he must follow me. [Mt 8:21] Foxes have holes and the birds of the air have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head.

    So, since the perfect man will have no money because he has obeyed Jesus’ command, Jesus said [Lk 6:20] Happy are you who are poor: yours is the kingdom of God.
    [Lk 6:21] Happy you who are hungry now: you shall be satisfied.
    Happy you who weep now: you shall laugh.
    [Lk 6:22] Happy are you when people hate you, drive you out, abuse you, denounce your name as criminal, on account of the Son of Man. [Lk 6:23] Rejoice when that day comes and dance for joy, for then your reward will be great in heaven. This was the way their ancestors treated the false prophets.

    [Lk 9:26] For if anyone is ashamed of me and of my words, the Son of Man will also be ashamed of him when he comes in his own glory and in the glory of his Father and the holy angels.

    Nothing must hold a person back from following his commands, and as we know from Jesus’ eventual fate, purity comes with that heavy price. [Mt 10:37] Anyone who prefers father or mother to me is not worthy of me. Anyone who prefers son or daughter to me is not worthy of me. [Mt 10:38] Anyone who does not take up his cross and follow in my footsteps is not worthy of me. [Mt 10:39] Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it.

    A follower must be at disagreement with anyone willing to settle for imperfection. [Lk 14:26] If any man comes to me without a total detachment from his father, mother, wife, children, brothers, sisters, yes and even his own life too, he cannot be my disciple.

    Even Jesus’ own relatives could not believe the extremity of his teachings and the effect he was having, [Mk 3:21]they set out to take charge of him, convinced he was out of his mind.

    And of course, this disagreement will become the source of contention. [Mt 10:34] Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth: it is not peace I have come to bring, but a sword.

    [Lk 12:52] For from now on a household of five will be divided: three against two and two against three; [Lk 12:53] the father against the son, son against father, mother against daughter, daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law, daughter-in-law against mother-in-law.

    [Mt 10:28] Brother will betray brother to death, and the father his child; children sill rise against their parents and have them put to death. [Mt 10:29] You will be hated by all men on account of my name; but the man who stands firm to the end will be saved. [Mt 19:29] Anyone who has left houses, brothers, sisters, father, mother, children or land for the sake of my name will be repaid a hundred times over, and also inherit eternal life. [Mt 19:30] Many who are first will be last, and the last first.

    [Lk 12:49] I have come to bring fire to the earth, and how I wish it was blazing already!

    Through attaining perfection, that person will become united with God, and as a result with everyone. And from those who have attained perfection also, that bond between them can never be broken. [Mt 12:49] "Who is my mother? Who are my brothers?’ [Mt 12:50] Anyone who does the will of my Father in heaven, he is my brother and sister and mother.

    But perfection comes at that price. [Jn 16:20] I tell you most solemnly, you will be weeping and wailing while the world will rejoice; you will be sorrowful.

    Persecution will come to the person who believes in his word, and acts upon it. But nothing less is to be expected. [Jn 15:18] If the world hates you, remember that it hated me before you. [Jn 15:19] If you belonged to the world, the world would love you as its own; but because you do not belong to the world, because my choice withdrew you from the world, the world hates you. [Jn 15:20] Remember the words I said to you: A servant is not greater than his master. If they persecuted me, they will persecute you too; if they kept my word, they will keep yours as well. [Jn 15:21] But it will be on my account that they will do this because they do not know the one who sent me.

    [Mt 7:13] Enter by the narrow gate, since the road that leads to perdition is wide and spacious, and many take it; [Mt 7:14] but it is a narrow and a hard road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

    And when perfection has been attained, and a person has overcome all their fear of living by it and can live by faith alone; when their soul is purely loving and one with the underlying loving soul that is God; when there is no doubt in that person’s mind, they will be able to perform all the miracles Jesus could, and infinitely more. Anything asked for in prayer would be granted. [Jn 14:12] Whoever believes in me will perform the same works as I do myself, he will perform even greater works. [Mt 7:7] Ask and it will be given to you; serach and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you. [Lk 18:27] Things that are impossible for men are possible for God.

    [Jn 15:12] This is my commandment: love one another as I have loved you. A man can have no greater love than to lay down his life for his friends. [Jn 15:13] You are my friends, if you do what I command you. [Jn 15:14] I shall not call you servants any more, because a servant does not know his masters business, I call you friends because I have made known to you everything I have learnt from my Father.

    So being a follower of Jesus, being a Christian (who is really a Jew), involves first renouncing all one’s wealth, and with the wealth one’s family, and then, if needs be, even renounce one’s life. It involves sacrificing everything. [Mt 10:39] Anyone who finds his life will lose it; anyone who loses his life for my sake will find it. There is no middle ground. According to Jesus, to rightly call oneself a follower, this is what one has to do – they must copy him.

    It is Godliness that must be attained [Lk 6:36] Be compassionate as your Father is compassionate.

    But it is the first hurdle that people find the hardest, and which stops them from even reaching the next ones: renouncing money. Money is the root of all evil, and it is the love of money that stops a person renouncing it. That is why Jesus said [Mt 19:28] It is easier for a camel to pass through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.

    But as Jesus said [Jn 15:22] If I had not come, if I had not spoken to them, they would have been blameless; but as it is they have no excuse for their sin.

    [Jn 3:19] On these grounds is sentence pronounced: that though the light has come into the world men have shown they prefer darkness to the light because their deeds were evil. [Jn 3:20] And indeed, everybody who does wrong hates the light and avoids it, for fear that his actions should be exposed; [Jn 3:21] but the man who lives by the truth comes out into the light, so that it may be plainly seen that what he does is done in truth.

    [Jn 8:47] A child of God listens to the word of God; if you refuse to listen, it is because you are not God’s children.








    So what does all this say about the entire religion of Islam, who believe that Jesus was one of their prophets. Who believe, amongst many other things, that for example only a percentage of their money should be used to help the poor, and not all of it as Jesus said? Was the ‘prophet’ Mohammed, who came hundreds of years after Jesus, in fact a false prophet, since he settled for imperfection over perfection?

    And if so, then how can it be that there are so many who live by Mohammed's teachings, and cannot appreciate that they go against Jesus' teachings, so Jesus could not be their prophet, and that according to Jesus, Mohammed was a pagan who feared his teachings?








    So if there are so many ‘Christians’ out there, loving Jesus and following his word, why is the world on the brink of collapse. Why can't I see people who have given away all their money? Why are the greatest not the least? Why are Jews, Christians, and Muslims, (who should in fact all call themselves Jews, though they would refuse to acknowledge it) who account for BILLIONS of the world’s population, at each others throats, bickering over who has most cake? Why is it that we stand on the brink of what could be WW3 and a nuclear holocaust? Could it be primarily that those people who call themselves ‘Christian’ have forgotten what it really means to be a Christian, and have adapted Jesus’ teachings to suit them? Has perfection been swept aside in favour of this imperfection of this world that we have been failingly been trying to remedy? Is the ‘Church’ led by false prophets, who are ashamed of Jesus and his words, who profess to love him, but according to Jesus, in fact do not? Have they been corrupted by the teachings of those other ‘Christians’ who had come before them, but refuse to stop the corruption from continuing? Are people afraid of truth and perfection? Have people had too much fear to abandon the second master, so that they can focus purely on the first? Are money, capitalism and consumerism the new religion?
     
  2. ajwps
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    Jesus is a fundamentally important character in both the Christian and Islamic faits. There is much dispute over what his message was and what he required. I think this was Jesus' message was very clear, and I think it was this:

    He came not to start a new religion, but to clarify that one that already existed. And his fate was to fulfil the prophecies in the scriptures, so that they would thus be finalised and completed......[


    Let's see if Jesus actually fulfilled the prophecies in Isaiah the prophet's words written hundreds of years before Jesus was born of Mary.

    Did Jesus fulfill this main messianic prophecy during his 31 years on earth?

    1) Did Jesus judge among the nations? Which ones?

    2) Did Jesus rebuke many people? How many are many people?

    3) Did Jesus bring nations to beat their swords into plowshares or their spears into prunning hooks?

    4) Did Jesus bring on universal peace where mankind has learned war no more? How many wars have come since Jesus crucifixion?

    Maybe he missed on the first go-around and will do better on the his fourth or fifth return?

    Sorry but the prophets did not give contestants multiple chances to get the title of messiah.
     
  3. deciophobic
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    sorry, but i'm not in the mmod to read this novel you posted...tho it does sound interesting:D
     
  4. ajwps
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    sorry, but i'm not in the mmod to read this novel you posted...tho it does sound interesting:D

    I posted no novel here but only four questions relating to the prophecies attributed to the coming of a messianic messenger.
     
  5. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    1)I dont accept the premise that Jesus claimed to give the final and true account of how God must be served. I know of no scripture that says he gave the final account.

    The message Christ gave was the same message that was given for millium before. That the Messiah would come to save mankind and the Law of Moses would be fulfilled. He came to teach the Gospel that was known from the days of Adam on. Abraham knew the Gospel and because of that he looked forwards to the days of Christ. as Christ Himself testified in John.

    The only difference in Christ's message. is that He proclaimed Himself to be the Promised Messiah. And then provided the Atonement for Mankind. But all the prophets before and after have known that Gospel because all prophets have testified of Christ. The Spirit of Prophecy is a testimony of Christ (rev 19).

    2)Christ has not yet fullfilled all the Prophecies in the scriptures. Christ is foretold to come again. It is prophecied that the Kingdom of God shall be established and that Christ will come to recieve His Kingdom from the Ancient of Days. So thus according to your own words the scriptures are not yet completed.
     
  6. Avatar4321
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    Avatar4321 Diamond Member Gold Supporting Member

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    I think he was talking about the other guy.
     
  7. ajwps
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    1)I dont accept the premise that Jesus claimed to give the final and true account of how God must be served. I know of no scripture that says he gave the final account.

    Correct.... Jesus never alleged his divinity and had nothing new to announce as to how G-d was to be served as that was already well documented in the same Bible we read to this day. (See the Dead Sea Scrolls written around Jesus time are the exact same words we read to this day. The divinity of Christ was claimed later by Paul of Tarsus many years after his crucifixion.

    The message Christ gave was the same message that was given for millium before. That the Messiah would come to save mankind and the Law of Moses would be fulfilled.

    Also correct..... Jesus gave the exact same message that the prophets had done hundreds of years before concerning the events that would occur with the coming of the messiah messenger.

    He came to teach the Gospel that was known from the days of Adam on. Abraham knew the Gospel and because of that he looked forwards to the days of Christ. as Christ Himself testified in John.

    Avatar do you have any evidence (other than Paul and his later unknown gospel writers) that Adam or Abraham new of the Gospel books of Peter, Mark, Luke or Matthew? If Christ never met even one person who wrote the book of Mark, how in the world would he testify to someone after he was long crucifixied and dead.

    The only difference in Christ's message. is that He proclaimed Himself to be the Promised Messiah. And then provided the Atonement for Mankind. But all the prophets before and after have known that Gospel because all prophets have testified of Christ. The Spirit of Prophecy is a testimony of Christ (rev 19).

    This statement is a bit of a stretch to even the most receptive imagination. You say that all the prophets before and after (what???) testified of Christ. I have read every prophet's words from the Old Testament written hundreds of years before Christ's birth and can't find Jesus Christ name mentioned even once.

    Remember there were many men who claimed the messiahship before and after Jesus Christ. Alas all of these would be messiahs died and not one of the prophecies of the prophecies has every came true to this day proving that they were not the one prophecied.

    2)Christ has not yet fullfilled all the Prophecies in the scriptures.

    Why not? What was the problem?

    Christ is foretold to come again. It is prophecied that the Kingdom of God shall be established and that Christ will come to recieve His Kingdom from the Ancient of Days. So thus according to your own words the scriptures are not yet completed.

    When did I ever say that the scriptures were not yet complete. I did say that the creation started by G-d was not yet completed but was being created every second of every day.

    Where beside in the words written 60 + years and then in the later gospels is Jesus prophecied to return? Jesus, in the Gospels told his disciples in his resurrected form that not one of them would pass away until he returned to claim his kingdom.

    Do you know of any of Jesus' disciples that are still living in July, 2004?

    Now why did Jesus not fulfill the messianic prophecies in Isaiah 2:4?
     
  8. ajwps
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    I think he was talking about the other guy.

    Sorry but I thought he was referring to my reply. He did not post the name of the poster josephignatius in his heading.

    My mistake....
     
  9. Avatar4321
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    I never mentioned Christs claim to divinity. I dont see how you can say correct and that make comments about the Divinity of Christ which i didnt mention. But you are right Christ never alleged His Divinity. He declared His Divinity. "Before Abraham, was I Am" The Pharisees sure understood Him clearly because they turned around and tried to stone Him for Blasphemy.

    The Gospel was known to men from the time of Adam on. In each dispensation of time the Gospel was lost to most through Apostasy. Moses originally brought the Gospel down to the Children of Israel but when he found them worshiping the idol he went back up and the Lord gave him the Law of Moses to point them to Christ and teach them the consequences of sin and the need to Repent.

    Obviously you should do alittle more research. The Gospel of Mark is the Apostle Peters account. Mark was his secretary and hence the one who wrote what Peter told Him. Are you trying to say that Christ didnt know Peter, His Chief Apostle?

    When did you become part of the conversation? I was talking to the original poster who claimed that since Christ has fulfilled all the prophecies the scriptures are fulfilled and complete. This cannot be true because Christ has yet to fulfill the prophecies of His Second coming which is soon in the future. What you think on the matter is rather irrelevant to what he said in his original post. Why do you seem to think everything is directed toward you?
     
  10. ajwps
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    I never mentioned Christs claim to divinity. I dont see how you can say correct and that make comments about the Divinity of Christ which i didnt mention. But you are right Christ never Ialleged His Divinity. He declared His Divinity. "Before Abraham, was I Am" The Pharisees sure understood Him clearly because they turned around and tried to stone Him for Blasphemy.

    If Christ 'declared' his own divinity, where exactly did he write it down himself or who took dictation directly from Christ to that effect? Any proof or is that based on the word of Paul of Tarsus? If they Pharisees turned around and tried to stone him for blasphemy, why did they not finish him off as was the custom in stonings of the day?

    The Gospel was known to men from the time of Adam on. In each dispensation of time the Gospel was lost to most through Apostasy. Moses originally brought the Gospel down to the Children of Israel but when he found them worshiping the idol he went back up and the Lord gave him the Law of Moses to point them to Christ and teach them the consequences of sin and the need to Repent.

    Unbelievable. Do you have any proof that the Gospel was known to men from the time of Adam? Why in the wide world of sports would people who had something as important as the gospel of Jesus Christ lose it to apostasy only to get allegations of the name of Jesus in the Old Testament. So far I can't find the name of Jesus mentioned even once in this Old Testament book. You say that the Old Testament points to the word of Jesus being given when not even one word was written down by Jesus himself.

    Obviously you should do alittle more research. The Gospel of Mark is the Apostle Peters account. Mark was his secretary and hence the one who wrote what Peter told Him. Are you trying to say that Christ didnt know Peter, His Chief Apostle?

    Let me get this straight. Mark (unknown guy) was a secretary who took some kind of written record or shorthand dictated by the Apostle Peter and then retranscribed years later in the Gospel? Are you saying that this man (unkown) Mark actually wrote down Peter's memories of what Jesus told him? Do you have any validated proof or orginal copy of these notes from Peter's secretary Mark? The entire world would like to see these original documents.

    When did you become part of the conversation? I was talking to the original poster who claimed that since Christ has fulfilled all the prophecies the scriptures are fulfilled and complete. This cannot be true because Christ has yet to fulfill the prophecies of His Second coming which is soon in the future. What you think on the matter is rather irrelevant to what he said in his original post. Why do you seem to think everything is directed toward you?

    Sorry but I thought that everyone who takes his time to read this site has the right to respond to any posts on this site. Maybe I was wrong.

    I don't think everything is directed to me but I am curious and would like to know how you think these events occurred. Are you saying that you only wish to correspond to the choir?

    Next time, simply say that ajwps is not welcomed to read or comment on my post as I have no answers to his questions.

    Thanks for your time.:tng:
     

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