GopJeff and the Person(s) in the Trinity

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy
Considering mine happened EXACTLY as foretold, and yours happened 400 years before, AND ONY WITHIN A 2 YEAR SPAN, I would say you are way off base. You found MANY?
Read the text. Your many happened inside of 2 years! -AND it was 400 years BEFORE the prophecy was written, or even occurred. You prove the Bible more divine the more you try to disprove it. [/i]

Okay how about this one?

http://www.reference-guides.com/smiths_bible_dictionary/Claudius/

Claudius: (lame), fourth Roman emperor, reigned from 41 to 54 A.D. He was nominated to the supreme power mainly through the influence of Herod Agrippa the First. In the reign of Claudius there were several famines, arising from unfavorable harvests, and one such occurred in Palestine and Syria. Ac 11:28-30 Claudius was induced by a tumult of the Jews in Rome to expel them from the city. cf. Ac 18:2 The date of this event is uncertain. After a weak and foolish reign he was poisoned by his fourth wife, Agrippina, the mother of Nero, October 13, A.D. 54.

 

[NewGuy]

For clarification, just as I posted:

http://www.earth-history.com/Roman/

AD 1-50

1Augustus in the 28th year of his rule as Imperator Caesar Divi Filius Augustus Pontifex Maximus Pater Patriae. His wife, since 38 bc, Livia Drusilla. War in Germany.

2 Peace made with Persia. Forum of Augustus dedicated. Scandal of Augustus' daughter Julia. Death of Lucius at Marseilles. Tiberius returns from Rhodes.

3 Ariobarzanes made King of Armenia. Proconsulare Imperium renewed for ten years. Augustus's new house on the Palatine destroyed by fire.

4 Death of Gaius in Lycia. Augustus adopts Tiberius and Agrippa Postumus, Tiberius adopts Germanicus. Tiberius in Germany - he subdues the Bructeri and Cherusci. Conspiracy of Cn Cornelius Cinna.

5 Tiberius in Germany, He reaches the Elbe. Sentius receives triumphal honours. Famine in Italy.

6 Pannonia and Dalmatia revolt. Alarm at Rome, Famine in the city. Judaea made a province.

7 Tiberius and Germanicus in Pannonia. Agrippa Postumus banished to Planasia, Ovid banished to Tomi on the Black Sea.

8 Subjection of Pannonia under the general Marcus Lepidus. The orator Cassius Severus banished for libel.

9 Pannonian War ends. Arminius defeats Varus in Germany. The Lex Pappia Poppaea Ara Pacis inaugurated.

10 Pannonia established as an imperial province. Tiberius secures the Rhine defences. Arch of Dolabella and SIlanus on the ancient Celimontana gate. The obelisk of the Horologium Augusti brought from Heliopolis to Rome.

11 Tiberius and Germanicus re-cross the Rhine. The Theatre of Marcellus, begun by Julius, is finished.

12 Germanicus consul Tiberius granted supreme power alongside Augustus. Tiberius celebrates a triumph for Pannonia. Birth of Caligula, son of Germanicus. The Basilica Julia enlarged and rebuilt.

13 Tiberius (again) receives Tribunician Power and Proconsulare Imperium in all provinces.

14 Census of Caesar and Tiberius. Death of Augustus at Nola in Campania; buried in his own mausoleum. TIBERIUS accedes as Tiberius Caesar Augustus.

15 Achaea and Macedonia become Imperial Provinces. Tiberius becomes Pontifex Maximus. The Tiber floods it's banks.

16 Germanicus campaigns in Germany; the Elbe is abandoned as the German frontier.

17-18 Germanicus in Rome celebrates his triumph. Sejanus Prefect of the Praetorian guard. Germanicus campaigns in the East. Cappadocia and Commagene annexed Livy and Ovid die.

19 Germanicus dies at Antioch. Decrees against the profligacy of women. Tiberius restores the Temple of Castor and Pollux in the Forum. Arches erected in The Forum Of Augustus to Drusus and Germanicus.

20-24 Wars in Africa against Tacfarinas. Tiberius' son Drusus celebrates a triumph. Drusus' mother Vipsania dies. Failed rising in Gaul under Sacrovir and Florus. Death of Arminius.

21 Drusus shares the consulship with Tiberius.

22 Drusus given Tribunician Power. The Basilica Aemilia in the Forum re-built.

23 Juba of Mauretania dies. Drusus poisoned by his wife Livilla and Sejanus. Elder Pliny born. Strabo dies. Castra Praetoria barracks built for the Guard.

24 Trial and suicide of Silius and Silvanus. Death of Tacfarinas. Slave revolt in South Italy under T.Curtisius.

25 Rebellion in Thrace, suppressed by 26. Tiberius refuses Sejanus's request to marry Livilla. Thrace rebels against military service.

26 Poppaeus Sabinus given triumphal insignia for crushing Thracian revolt.

27 Tiberius settles in Capri. Fire in Rome.

28 The Frisians revolt against tribute. L. Apronius, campaigns in Germany.

29Livia dies aged 86. Agrippina, widow of Germanicus banished to Pandateria.

30 Drusus and Asinius Gallus imprisoned.

31Sejanus becomes a senator and consul; the fall of Sejanus. Macro Praetorian Prefect Sales tax increased back to Augustan level.

32 Death of Asinius Gallus and Drusus. General terror Price riots in the city.

33 Agrippina starves herself to death.

34 Artaxias of Armenia dies.

35 Birth of the author Quintilian. Death of Poppaeus Sabinus in the Balkans.

36 Fire in Rome. Peace between Rome and Parthia. Settlement of Judaea; imprisonment of Herod Agrippa.

37 Tiberius dies at his villa in Misenum. His ashes placed in the Mausoleum of Augustus. CALIGULA succeeds as Gaius Caesar Germanicus Augustus, Pontifex Maximus, and Pater Patriae (born 12 at Antium). He marries Livia Orestilla Antonia. Mother of Germanicus dies.

38 Death of Caligula's sister Drusilla. He marries Lollia Paulina. Anti-Jewish riots in Alexandria. Death of the Praetorian Prefect Macro. Claudius marries Valeria Messalina.

39 Caligula marries Milonia Caesonia. He 'campaigns' on the Rhine. Lepidus and Gaetulicus executed for conspiracy. Herod Antipas deposed. Caligila builds the 'Bridge of Boats' at Baiae.

40 Caligula orders that the temple of Jerusalem be turned into an Imperial shrine. Ptolemy of Mauretania executed at Rome.

41 Caligula assassinated in Rome. Ashes placed in the mausoleum of Augustus. Praetorian guard make CLAUDIUS emperor. He accedes as Tiberius Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus Pontifex Maximus Pater Patriae (born Lyons, 10 bc). Birth of his son, Tiberius Claudius Germanicus (Brittanicus). Herod Agrippa given Judaea and Samaria.

42 Revolt by Lucius Scribonianus, governor of Dalmatia. Leading senators implicated. Famine in Rome. New harbour begun at Ostia. Mauretania annexed and made into two provinces. Suetonius Paulinus crosses the Atlas.

43 Conquest of Britain begun under Aulus Plautius; Claudius in Britain defeats Caractacus. Lycia merged into Pamphylia.

44 Death of Herod Agrippa. Claudius returns to Rome; his British triumph.

45 Mithridates of Bosphorus deposed and Cotys set up.

46 Asinius Gallus exiled for conspiracy. Annexation of Thrace. Citizenship given to the Gallic Anauni. Birth of the writer Plutarch.

47 Claudius holds the Secular Games to mark 800 years of the city of Rome. Plautus returns from Britain to a triumph.

48 Claudius' wife Messalina conspires with C. Silius, both executed.

49 Claudius marries his niece Julia Agrippina. Seneca made Nero's tutor. Lollia Paulina exiled and killed.

50 Claudius adopts Agrippina's son, Domitius Ahenobarbus as 'Nero'. The Chatti invade from Germany, crushed by Pomponius.

That means 2 in Rome, one in Italy.

Rome was the large compilation of Italy and the other territories.

That means Rome is the Biblical reference if it was "the WORLD".

If Rome had 2 instances, one of the 2 had to be the reference if not both.

These 2 occurred in a 50 year span. Considering we do not know when they ended, we do not know the length of each.

We DO know your reference points to a max of 2 years for MANY famines 400 years earlier.

You show famines, I point to GREAT famines. -And "World WIDE".

It really doesn't matter anymore in detail than that. The prophecy is proven no matter what clarifier is put up.

 

[Yurt]

Couple of points ajwps,

how could they remember what had been said or happened during Jesus time on earth? People of that age today can't even remember eating their lunch ten minutes ago.

The above is from one of your ealier quotes.

First, it is absolutely incorrect to compare the memory of people today with those 2000 years ago. With so much mass media people barely remember what happened on 9/11. Back then, it was not so. In fact, before there was mass education, most people did not know how to read or write. So history was past down via orally. This custom is still practiced in many indigengous tribes. So the fact that the story was told orally then written down at a later date is really no big deal, if you consider the time period, which you must, because it is not at all comparable to today.

Second, do agree that "water can simultaneously be liquid, gas, and solid. Each of the three expressions of water is different, but each is also water." Do you???????

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Yurt

Couple of points ajwps,

how could they remember what had been said or happened during Jesus time on earth? People of that age today can't even remember eating their lunch ten minutes ago.

The above is from one of your ealier quotes.

First, it is absolutely incorrect to compare the memory of people today with those 2000 years ago. With so much mass media people barely remember what happened on 9/11. Back then, it was not so. In fact, before there was mass education, most people did not know how to read or write. So history was past down via orally. This custom is still practiced in many indigengous tribes. So the fact that the story was told orally then written down at a later date is really no big deal, if you consider the time period, which you must, because it is not at all comparable to today.

I thank you for your input. I am trying to comprehend what you are insinuating about elderly peoples memories more than 2 eons ago. Are you saying that because the people in Jesus time were not educated (which is now proven false by the famous Dead Sea Scrolls) and therefore had to pass stories on from one person to another person to another person and finally to a group of men who sat down to write down what they gleaned from word to word accounts are somehow accurate?

Do you have any proof whatsoever that eighty or ninety year old people in the days of Jesus could remember more than they have to go to the bathroom? In the days of Jesus, the life span of men were not like, as you say, comparable to today. The chances that a man named Paul of Tarsus, who never knew the live Jesus, got a vision on a road from which the Gospel writers gleaned what a man named Jesus said sixty or seventy years in the past is less than nil unless you believe hard enough and clap your heels together three times.

Unless Jesus actually appeared to this persecutor of Christians in a magical vision, the chances are that any resemblence to the man Jesus and his actions were purely fictional.

Second, do agree that "water can simultaneously be liquid, gas, and solid. Each of the three expressions of water is different, but each is also water." Do you???????

Are you trying to compare three god personalities to three various states of matter subatomic particles?

If I told you that there were fish in the sea, would you compare this visual image to a pantheon of gods????? All the swimming fish is still the expressions of FISH.....

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

For clarification, just as I posted:

http://www.earth-history.com/Roman/

That means 2 in Rome, one in Italy. Rome was the large compilation of Italy and the other territories. That means Rome is the Biblical reference if it was "the WORLD". If Rome had 2 instances, one of the 2 had to be the reference if not both.
These 2 occurred in a 50 year span. Considering we do not know when they ended, we do not know the length of each.
We DO know your reference points to a max of 2 years for MANY famines 400 years earlier. You show famines, I point to GREAT famines. -And "World WIDE".

It really doesn't matter anymore in detail than that. The prophecy is proven no matter what clarifier is put up.

You are really a great thinker and philospher.

You are asked to show one prophecy from the New Testament that came to pass many years after being prophecied.

You point out something about a GREAT DEARTH and suddenly, mysteriously you find a famine in the time of Claudius Ceasar.

Sorry but any attempt to link this as a Gospel prophecy is clearly a stretch to the imagination of anyone. You have seen that there were many famines (none greater than another to those who starve in them) in the time span you deliniated but famines are common even to this day in certain parts of the world.

Try this prophecy on for size. Even this prophecy "appears" to have happened thousands of years after put to papyrus.

Do you remember the recent attack against Sadaam when the USA (country of NORTH America) sent SMART missles into Iraq that never missed their marks like the old conventional carpet bombings?

Jeremiah 50:9 (King James Version)

For behold, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon (Iraq today) An assembly (Coalition) of great nations from the north (American) country, And they shall array themselves against her; From there she shall be captured. (freed from Sadaam) Their arrows (missles) shall be like those of an expert warrior; a warrior who makes childless. None shall return in vain.

Even this prophecy may or may not be that as written by the Prophet Jeremiah.

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps


You are really a great thinker and philospher.

You are asked to show one prophecy from the New Testament that came to pass many years after being prophecied.

You point out something about a GREAT DEARTH and suddenly, mysteriously you find a famine in the time of Claudius Ceasar.

Suddenly and mysteriously?

The prophecy not only suited your criteria, but also was mentioned to you once before by me. The only thing sudden or mysterious is that you never bothered to check history as proof for the prophecy.

NOW I have done that for you. You should be happy. I have just given you reason to give up since you claim the entire New Testament false based on lack of prophecy.

Sorry but any attempt to link this as a Gospel prophecy is clearly a stretch to the imagination of anyone.

You haven't proven it NOT prophecy.

I guess you ignore the obvious.

That is an eviable quality for a doctor.

You have seen that there were many famines (none greater than another to those who starve in them) in the time span you deliniated but famines are common even to this day in certain parts of the world.

Common?

What does that have to do with prophecy?

PREDICTABLILITY is what would make this prophecy invalid.

It was the only famine situation in Rome for 400 years and happened just as claimed. In addition, if it could be predicted, would the leaders let it happen?

They would lose taxes and weaken the military strength.

They were not that dumb.

The prophecy still stands solid.

Try this prophecy on for size. Even this prophecy "appears" to have happened thousands of years after put to papyrus.

No.

The buck stops here.

You claimed the New Testament false by not having any prophecy and now that you have been proven wrong, your argument holds no water.

We go no further until you prove it wrong.

If you keep discussing the Bible or New Testament invalid, I will continue to hammer this into you until you do prove this prophecy invalid.

IF you underestimate my resolve, you may do it to your detriment.

 

[5stringJeff]

Originally posted by ajwps
You are asked to show one prophecy from the New Testament that came to pass many years after being prophecied.

I gave you four of them, which you have ignored for two pages now.

Do you remember the recent attack against Sadaam when the USA (country of NORTH America) sent SMART missles into Iraq that never missed their marks like the old conventional carpet bombings?

Even this prophecy may or may not be that as written by the Prophet Jeremiah.

Which one, specifically, is this?

EDIT: I didn't see the passage when I quoted your message. More to follow on this passage.

 

[NewGuy]

He couldn't even paste it right.

AJ, if you want to argue from another's playbook, at least get your verse numbers straight.

It is verse 9, not 10:

9 For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon an assembly of great nations from the north country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken: their arrows shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.
10 And Chaldea shall be a spoil: all that spoil her shall be satisfied, saith the LORD.

 

[Yurt]

Originally posted by ajwps
Second, do agree that "water can simultaneously be liquid, gas, and solid. Each of the three expressions of water is different, but each is also water." Do you???????

Are you trying to compare three god personalities to three various states of matter subatomic particles?

If I told you that there were fish in the sea, would you compare this visual image to a pantheon of gods????? All the swimming fish is still the expressions of FISH.....

Once again, you fail to answer the question. Instead you mock, then you give some babble about fish in the sea being comparable to an image of pantheon gods? No disrespect, but honestly I fail to see any logical connection between that statement and my statement about water. Fish in the sea has nothing to do with the 3 expressions of water.

I never said people weren't educated 2000 years ago, however, the educational level is doubtfully equal to that of today's standard. I will research this more, as I learned this in school a few years ago. However, I ask you this, do you honestly believe that printed media was as widely used 2000 years ago as it is today? I guess my point was, not necessarily whether an 80 year old could remember this or that, rather, whether people were more likely to convey information orally due the lack of mass media.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by Yurt

Once again, you fail to answer the question. Instead you mock, then you give some babble about fish in the sea being comparable to an image of pantheon gods? No disrespect, but honestly I fail to see any logical connection between that statement and my statement about water. Fish in the sea has nothing to do with the 3 expressions of water.

I never said people weren't educated 2000 years ago, however, the educational level is doubtfully equal to that of today's standard. I will research this more, as I learned this in school a few years ago. However, I ask you this, do you honestly believe that printed media was as widely used 2000 years ago as it is today? I guess my point was, not necessarily whether an 80 year old could remember this or that, rather, whether people were more likely to convey information orally due the lack of mass media.

You posed the original reply relating the three physical states of water to be equated with one god in three persons. This is also babble to anyone who is trying to understand a trinity of god(s).

The ability to write, read and store texts in libraries was almost as advanced 2100 years ago as today. There were historians who wrote books like Josephus, Rome maintained libraries of written texts used by people like Josephus, the Dead Sea Scrolls that we have in our possession today.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/ancient_texts/Cuneiform.shtml

In the late fourth and third milleniums B.C. a people called the Sumerians began to develop a writing system called "cuneiform" ("wedge-shaped"), written on wet clay with a sharpened stick, or stylus. At first the Sumerians used a series of pictures ("pictograms") to record information having to do with business and administration, but went on to develop a system of symbols that stood for ideas and later sounds (usually syllables). In the later stages of Sumerian writing there were about 600 signs that were used on a regular basis.

Unfortunately there are no existing texts from the early Christian Church, Jesus or the disciples. If there were, they could easily be compared to the NT Gospels for verification.

You cannot prove anything by comparing existing books written hundreds of years after the crucifixion of Jesus to prove that the gospels had any relationship to actual events or people described in the Gospels.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

He couldn't even paste it right.

AJ, if you want to argue from another's playbook, at least get your verse numbers straight.

It is verse 9, not 10:

Can you read? I posted Jeremiah 50:9 in my post. You are mistaken once again.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

Suddenly and mysteriously? The prophecy not only suited your criteria, but also was mentioned to you once before by me. The only thing sudden or mysterious is that you never bothered to check history as proof for the prophecy. NOW I have done that for you. You should be happy. I have just given you reason to give up since you claim the entire New Testament false based on lack of prophecy.

I simply asked for one Gospel prophecy that came true many years later. You didn't show any relationship to any great dearth with your finding one famine in the time of Claudias. What is the connection?

You haven't proven it NOT prophecy.

There is no need to prove something that is obviously not related or linked to any NT prophecy. What am I to disprove?

I guess you ignore the obvious. That is an eviable quality for a doctor.

Whatever????

Common? What does that have to do with prophecy?

Common are famines repleat through recorded history. Again you make a statement without linking this GREAT DEARTH to any one particular event that the NT Gospel says happened on a certain day in a particular city in the middle of what community state area? What is your connection?

PREDICTABLILITY is what would make this prophecy invalid.

What is unpredictabile about this famine that would make this a valid NT Gospel prophecy?

It was the only famine situation in Rome for 400 years and happened just as claimed. In addition, if it could be predicted, would the leaders let it happen?

You were given a site that states that there were FAMINES during that 400 years in question. You discounted any evidence that would contradict your assertion of a NT prophecy no matter what any evidence was presented to you.

How would the "leaders" change any circumstance or situation that would prevent a famine if all they had to do was to walk over to the next village for provisions? Your thought pattern here is a bit confused.

They would lose taxes and weaken the military strength. They were not that dumb.

What do lost taxes, diminished militry strength have anything to do with one of just many famines (GREAT DEARTHS). Who knew that the NT Gospel prediction of a GREAT DEARTH referred to any particular famine. What are you trying to say?

The prophecy still stands solid.

Yes it actually does in your own mind but you have not shown any proof that there was any one prophecy in the NT that actually occurred years later. A vague GREAT DEARTH does not connect to Claudius. My Old Testmaent prophecy seems to fit in the present day, but this does not constitute proof of anything.

No. The buck stops here. You claimed the New Testament false by not having any prophecy and now that you have been proven wrong, your argument holds no water. We go no further until you prove it wrong.

How do you prove something wrong when there is no proof that it was correct? I can't even prove that you exist so therefore you are not only wrong but you don't even take up any space.

If you keep discussing the Bible or New Testament invalid, I will continue to hammer this into you until you do prove this prophecy invalid.

Can you stop repeating yourself. You've simply proven nothing to disprove?

IF you underestimate my resolve, you may do it to your detriment.

Keep on truckin...

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by gop_jeff

I gave you four of them, which you have ignored for two pages now.

The only four things you posted on this thread have nothing to do with prophecies in the NT that happened hundreds of years later which would tend to prove validity. I'll repost them in small print below:

Acts 1:8: He (Jesus) said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth."
This prophecy's fulfillment is the subject of the rest of the book of Acts.

John 2:18-22: "Then the Jews demanded of him, "What miraculous sign can you show us to prove your authority to do all this?" Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." The Jews replied, "It has taken forty-six years to build this temple, and you are going to raise it in three days?" But the temple he had spoken of was his body. After he was raised from the dead, his disciples recalled what he had said. Then they believed the Scripture and the words that Jesus had spoken. "
Of course, Jesus' resurrection is confirmed in all four gospels.

Luke 18:31: "Jesus took the Twelve aside and told them, "We are going up to Jerusalem, and everything that is written by the prophets about the Son of Man will be fulfilled. He will be handed over to the Gentiles. They will mock him, insult him, spit on him, flog him and kill him. On the third day he will rise again."
His suffering and resurrection, again, discussed in all four gospels.

Matthew 24:1-2: "Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. "Do you see all these things?" he asked. "I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down."
In AD 70, the temple in Jerusalem was torn apart.

You haven't one prophecy in these four NT quotes. Simply you have posted things discussed in the Gospels. Show me one of them to be a prophecy that has been fulfilled hundreds of years later. JUST ONE.....

Which one, specifically, is this? EDIT: I didn't see the passage when I quoted your message. More to follow on this passage.

Okay I'll repost it because you said you didn't see a possible event occurring more than 2.5 eons after placed on papyrus.

Jeremiah 50:9 KING JAMES VERSION

For, lo, I will raise and cause to come up against Babylon (Iraq) an assembly of great nations (the Coalition) from the north (American) country: and they shall set themselves in array against her; from thence she shall be taken (Sadaam captured along with Iraq): their arrows (Missles) shall be as of a mighty expert man; none shall return in vain.(Smart Bombs)

There is no real proof that this is the actual Jeremiah prophecy even though it SEEMS to FIT. Your NT verses don't prophecize anything except each other. What a feat...

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps

I simply asked for one Gospel prophecy that came true many years later. You didn't show any relationship to any great dearth with your finding one famine in the time of Claudias. What is the connection?

You admitted I did and it is clear I did. Reread. The prophecy says dearth and names the emporer it happened under. History backs this up.

There is no need to prove something that is obviously not related or linked to any NT prophecy. What am I to disprove?

Now you are contradicting your earlier statements that it DID have relevancy.

Common are famines repleat through recorded history. Again you make a statement without linking this GREAT DEARTH to any one particular event that the NT Gospel says happened on a certain day in a particular city in the middle of what community state area? What is your connection?

Actually, I did that quite clearly. You admitted it as well when you claimed that the prophecy adressed the famine, alright, but famines were supposedly common. After you stated that, I proved you wrong.

Reread the text.

What is unpredictabile about this famine that would make this a valid NT Gospel prophecy?

Can you predict a famine anywhere where there is none now? -and have it take place across an area the size of all civilization?

That's what I thought.

You were given a site that states that there were FAMINES during that 400 years in question. You discounted any evidence that would contradict your assertion of a NT prophecy no matter what any evidence was presented to you.

No. lets requote your post: "Between 433 and 431 B.C.E. there was a great deal of social struggle between patricians and plebians involving continual military clashes; these conflicts led to destruction and =famines which triggered increases in epidemics, declines in international trade, and overall economic instabiliy."

400 years? I see a list of famines occuring in a TWO YEAR SPAN.

You presented no evidence. Bring up more that verifies common famines in Rome then if you think I am wrong. Surely there is more than one source.

How would the "leaders" change any circumstance or situation that would prevent a famine if all they had to do was to walk over to the next village for provisions? Your thought pattern here is a bit confused.

No, you are confused. The point is that if a famine is predictable, the leaders will prevent it because they see it coming. THAT is what makes this famine so prophetic --it was "wold wide" and could not be predicted by normal men.

What do lost taxes, diminished militry strength have anything to do with one of just many famines (GREAT DEARTHS). Who knew that the NT Gospel prediction of a GREAT DEARTH referred to any particular famine. What are you trying to say?

You know what I am saying. Stop talking gibberish and make a point.

Yes it does in your own mind but you have not shown any proof that there was any prophecy in the NT occurred. My own example seems to fit in the present day, but this does not constitute proof of anything.

You are right. You cannot prove your point. -But I did. The proof is right there plain and simple.

How do you prove something wrong when there is no proof that it was correct?

You call yourself a doctor?

I can't even prove that you exist so therefore you are not only wrong but you don't even take up any space.

Don't get wise now. You won't like where that can go.

Can you stop repeating yourself. You've simply proven nothing to disprove?

I have proven nothing. The Bible has proven your entire argument base false. I just had to prove THAT to you.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

Responding to you is like emptying the sea of water in a sand pale. You just keep filling it back up with nothing but your claim to be correct. You simply ignored my post putting FAMINES (multiple) into your time frame.

That's what I thought. No. lets requote your post: "Between 433 and 431 B.C.E. there was a great deal of social struggle between patricians and plebians involving continual military clashes; these conflicts led to destruction and =famines which triggered increases in epidemics, declines in international trade, and overall economic instabiliy." 400 years? I see a list of famines occuring in a TWO YEAR SPAN. You presented no evidence. Bring up more that verifies common famines in Rome then if you think I am wrong. Surely there is more than one source.

Here goes one more time and for the last time:

http://www.reference-guides.com/smi...onary/Claudius/

Claudius: fourth Roman emperor, reigned from 41 to 54 A.D. He was nominated to the supreme power mainly through the influence of Herod Agrippa the First. In the reign of Claudius there were several famines, arising from unfavorable harvests, and one such occurred in Palestine and Syria. Ac 11:28-30 Claudius was induced by a tumult of the Jews in Rome to expel them from the city. cf. Ac 18:2 The date of this event is uncertain. After a weak and foolish reign he was poisoned by his fourth wife, Agrippina, the mother of Nero, October 13, A.D. 54.

Time of Claudius there were several famines. Which one specifically was prophecied in the NT Gospel?????

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps
Responding to you is like emptying the sea of water in a sand pale. You just keep filling it back up with nothing but your claim to be correct. You simply ignored my post putting FAMINES (multiple) into your time frame.

Keep it up odor eater.

http://www.reference-guides.com/smi...onary/Claudius/

quote:Claudius: fourth Roman emperor, reigned from 41 to 54 A.D. He was nominated to the supreme power mainly through the influence of Herod Agrippa the First. In the reign of Claudius there were several famines, arising from unfavorable harvests, and one such occurred in Palestine and Syria. Ac 11:28-30 Claudius was induced by a tumult of the Jews in Rome to expel them from the city. cf. Ac 18:2 The date of this event is uncertain. After a weak and foolish reign he was poisoned by his fourth wife, Agrippina, the mother of Nero, October 13, A.D. 54.

Time of Claudius there were several famines. Which one specifically was prophecied in the NT Gospel?????

As I said, there were only two as shown previously that were in the same reighn and "world wide" therefore: it doesn't matter does it? It FULFILLS THE PROPHECY.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

Keep it up odor eater.

Great retort.

As I said, there were only two as shown previously that were in the same reighn and "world wide" therefore: it doesn't matter does it? It FULFILLS THE PROPHECY.

Only two during the same reign when there were apparently many famines during Claudia's time? Which one is the prophecy proof?

Worldwide, where did you get that bit of information?

I didn't read about it in your history site proof list..... IT MATTERS FOR WITHOUT A SPECIFIC FAMINE, YOU HAVE PROVED NOTHING....

 

[NewGuy]

Originally posted by ajwps

Only two during the same reign when there were apparently many famines during Claudia's time?

Show proof. The statement of "many" is not only vague but proven untrue as my proof showed you already. There were listings of 3 and 2 were widespread. YOU have the job of disproving the specific logical info, not me.

Using vague terms with NO details doesn't cut it.

Which one is the prophecy proof?

Reread the thread.

Worldwide, where did you get that bit of information?

Read the text. -Better yet, pick up a Bible. If you can't remember what you are arguing, you aren't much good at disproving.

I didn't read about it in your history site proof list.....

You didn't READ.

 

[Yurt]

Originally posted by ajwps
Once again, you fail to answer the question. Instead you mock, then you give some babble about fish in the sea being comparable to an image of pantheon gods? No disrespect, but honestly I fail to see any logical connection between that statement and my statement about water. Fish in the sea has nothing to do with the 3 expressions of water.

I never said people weren't educated 2000 years ago, however, the educational level is doubtfully equal to that of today's standard. I will research this more, as I learned this in school a few years ago. However, I ask you this, do you honestly believe that printed media was as widely used 2000 years ago as it is today? I guess my point was, not necessarily whether an 80 year old could remember this or that, rather, whether people were more likely to convey information orally due the lack of mass media.

You posed the original reply relating the three physical states of water to be equated with one god in three persons. This is also babble to anyone who is trying to understand a trinity of god(s).

The ability to write, read and store texts in libraries was almost as advanced 2100 years ago as today. There were historians who wrote books like Josephus, Rome maintained libraries of written texts used by people like Josephus, the Dead Sea Scrolls that we have in our possession today.

http://www.usc.edu/dept/LAS/wsrp/educational_site/ancient_texts/Cuneiform.shtml



Unfortunately there are no existing texts from the early Christian Church, Jesus or the disciples. If there were, they could easily be compared to the NT Gospels for verification.

You cannot prove anything by comparing existing books written hundreds of years after the crucifixion of Jesus to prove that the gospels had any relationship to actual events or people described in the Gospels.

I posted the original reply, BECAUSE you never answered the question. My intent on asking the question should not matter if you have the truth. I all ask was that you answer the question.

Second, if you really believe that a stone tablet is comparable with today's writing standards, please, give me something better. It was not until the printing press that mass media began to be available. That was my point, there was NOT mass media back then. Therefore, most people handed down stories through oral history.

 

[ajwps]

Originally posted by NewGuy

ALRIGHTY LET ME DISPROVE YOUR PROOF OF NT PROPHECY

-------
Worldwide, where did you get that bit of information?
-------

Read the text. -Better yet, pick up a Bible. If you can't remember what you are arguing, you aren't much good at disproving.

You said,

"As I said, there were only two as shown previously that were in the same reighn and "world wide" therefore: it doesn't matter does it? It FULFILLS THE PROPHECY.

Okay lets read your NT bible prophecy and the proof of it failing the test of a prophecy.

First lets take a look at that ONE prophecy you provided from KJV of a New Testatment PROPHECY verse you would like to think is proof of validity of the NT.

Acts 11-28

And there stood up one of them named Agabus, and signified by the Spirit that there should be great dearth throughout all the world: which came to pass in the days of Claudius Caesar.

Now lets take a look at that proof. The only person during that period of time who actually was a historian who wrote down on paper the events was the man Josephus.

And Josephus the historian of 2100 years ago actually seems to speak of this GREAT DEARTH THROUGHOUT ONLY PALESTINE (WORLD WIDE) in Acts 11 which occurred during the time of Claudius Ceasar.

ANTIQUITIES OF THE JEWS


XX CHAPTER 2.

HOW HELENA THE QUEEN OF ADIABENE AND HER SON IZATES, EMBRACED THE JEWISH RELIGION; AND HOW HELENA SUPPLIED THE POOR WITH CORN, WHEN THERE WAS A GREAT FAMINE AT JERUSALEM.

Now her coming was of very great advantage to the people of Jerusalem; for whereas a famine did oppress them at that time, and many people died for want of what was necessary to procure food withal, queen Helena sent some of her servants to Alexandria with money to buy a great quantity of corn, and others of them to Cyprus, to bring a cargo of dried figs.

Now let's take a look at the reality of what throughout the world meant to the NT bible folks in the following.

ACTS OF THE APOSTLES

http://www.ccel.org/j/johnson_bw/pnt/PNT05-11.HTM

27, 28. In these days. While Saul was at Antioch. Came prophets. See note on 2:17. One of them named Agabus. Also named in 21:10. He had the prophetic gift. Should be a great dearth. A famine. Throughout all the world. This expression in the Scriptures often means the Jewish world. In the days of Claudius Cesar. Josephus (Antiquities, 20: 2) describes a great famine that prevailed in Palestine in the reign of Claudius Cæsar, beginning about the close of A. D. 44, and lasting three or four years. Food had to be imported by the benevolent persons from Egypt and Cyprus, yet many perished....

So this NT prophecy really meant throughout Jerusalem and not througout the world. SO VERY SORRY....

Yep I have now disproved your contention that the NT prophecy you picked out does not mean throughout the world but really throughout Jerusalem which in Acts 11:28 is what it really says