Germany's solar experiment collapses. $$$ down the drain.

[Trajan]

Why do some take pride and glee in failures to replace fossil fuel?

I'm not gleeful. The author of the piece isn't gleeful. The German government isn't gleeful.

I'd like a sane and tactical approach to converting to as many renewable energy forms as possible.

But all we have witnessed in various governments rush to be the "greenest" is epic failure and monumental waste of tax dollars.

That is because you are not including the costs that fossil fuels impose on health care systems and the environment. When you include those costs fossil fuels cost 2 times more than renewables

Coal Does More Harm Than Good in Kentucky: $62 Million for Asthma Costs, $10 Billion for Lost Lives | ThinkProgress
^Another study finds that coal mining in Kentucky has a negative impact overall on the economy

Economists: Coal Is Incredibly Costly | ThinkProgress
^New study finds that Coal and Oil are more costly then renewable energy once health and environmental effects are included.

Life-cycle study: Accounting for total harm from coal would add "close to 17.8¢/kWh of electricity generated" | ThinkProgress
^New study fines that Coals negative effect on human health and the environmental cost the nation at least 125% more than the electricity generated from coal.
^Coal results in at least 30,000 American deaths each year.

Coal Is Cheap Because Of The Massive Unpriced Externalities | ThinkProgress
Coal's hidden costs top $345 billion in U.S.: study | Reuters
^Coals negative impact on health and the environment is estimated to cost the united states over 400 billion dollars yearly.

thinkprogress? I see.

 

[skookerasbil]

This kind of stuff is like a stab to the heart of the k00ks who keep insisting that this solar shit is THE FUTURE.

The envorinmental k00ks on this forum are nothing less than hysterical..........imagine setting these dolts up for a round of Pin the Solar Panel Photo on the Donkey..........and they hit the wall ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF THE ROOM...........take off the blindfold and say, "I win!!!"

 

[tinydancer]

Why do some take pride and glee in failures to replace fossil fuel?

I'm not gleeful. The author of the piece isn't gleeful. The German government isn't gleeful.

I'd like a sane and tactical approach to converting to as many renewable energy forms as possible.

But all we have witnessed in various governments rush to be the "greenest" is epic failure and monumental waste of tax dollars.

That is because you are not including the costs that fossil fuels impose on health care systems and the environment. When you include those costs fossil fuels cost 2 times more than renewables

Coal Does More Harm Than Good in Kentucky: $62 Million for Asthma Costs, $10 Billion for Lost Lives | ThinkProgress
^Another study finds that coal mining in Kentucky has a negative impact overall on the economy

Economists: Coal Is Incredibly Costly | ThinkProgress
^New study finds that Coal and Oil are more costly then renewable energy once health and environmental effects are included.

Life-cycle study: Accounting for total harm from coal would add "close to 17.8¢/kWh of electricity generated" | ThinkProgress
^New study fines that Coals negative effect on human health and the environmental cost the nation at least 125% more than the electricity generated from coal.
^Coal results in at least 30,000 American deaths each year.

Coal Is Cheap Because Of The Massive Unpriced Externalities | ThinkProgress
Coal's hidden costs top $345 billion in U.S.: study | Reuters
^Coals negative impact on health and the environment is estimated to cost the united states over 400 billion dollars yearly.

With all due respect you're not reading my post correctly. I am criticizing the approach.

And the waste of tax dollars due to the lack of a true tactical sensible effort to bring about change in our sources of energy.

This should never have been an "overnight rush to green". Sadly, you will see with the failures of so many companies that have received millions of dollars and gone bankrupt a real and true backlash from taxpayers.

Pity.

Now to your health statistics. I will go thru them later. With the President being so anti coal, I know there is an agenda in the media to support him on the closure of plants.

But I will crawl thru your links.

 

[rdean]

Homeowners and private investors installed new solar power capacity of about 7,500 megawatts last year, while the government had only forecast a new capacity from 2,500 megawatts to 3,500 megawatts.

Solar power has become more competitive, making room for cuts to the subsidies, and showing that it is "a success story amid the country's transformation toward renewable energies," Environment Minister Norbert Roettgen said.

The government therefore wants to lower the guaranteed prices starting next month, he added. An initial cut of more than 20 percent will be deepened progressively so that the price will be on average some 30 percent lower by next January.

German government to cut subsidies supporting solar power by up to 30 percent - chicagotribune.com

In other words, subsidies are being cut because the program brought in twice what they expected. It's been a great success.

 

[Big Fitz]

I'm not gleeful. The author of the piece isn't gleeful. The German government isn't gleeful.

I'd like a sane and tactical approach to converting to as many renewable energy forms as possible.

But all we have witnessed in various governments rush to be the "greenest" is epic failure and monumental waste of tax dollars.

That is because you are not including the costs that fossil fuels impose on health care systems and the environment. When you include those costs fossil fuels cost 2 times more than renewables

Coal Does More Harm Than Good in Kentucky: $62 Million for Asthma Costs, $10 Billion for Lost Lives | ThinkProgress
^Another study finds that coal mining in Kentucky has a negative impact overall on the economy

Economists: Coal Is Incredibly Costly | ThinkProgress
^New study finds that Coal and Oil are more costly then renewable energy once health and environmental effects are included.

Life-cycle study: Accounting for total harm from coal would add "close to 17.8¢/kWh of electricity generated" | ThinkProgress
^New study fines that Coals negative effect on human health and the environmental cost the nation at least 125% more than the electricity generated from coal.
^Coal results in at least 30,000 American deaths each year.

Coal Is Cheap Because Of The Massive Unpriced Externalities | ThinkProgress
Coal's hidden costs top $345 billion in U.S.: study | Reuters
^Coals negative impact on health and the environment is estimated to cost the united states over 400 billion dollars yearly.

With all due respect you're not reading my post correctly. I am criticizing the approach.

And the waste of tax dollars due to the lack of a true tactical sensible effort to bring about change in our sources of energy.

This should never have been an "overnight rush to green". Sadly, you will see with the failures of so many companies that have received millions of dollars and gone bankrupt a real and true backlash from taxpayers.

Pity.

Now to your health statistics. I will go thru them later. With the President being so anti coal, I know there is an agenda in the media to support him on the closure of plants.

But I will crawl thru your links.

have fun. Make sure to look at the linked resources that 'prove' the numbers. I will almost guarantee 85% or more will be self referential advocacy circle jerks of poo smelling numbers.

 

[Big Fitz]

Homeowners and private investors installed new solar power capacity of about 7,500 megawatts last year, while the government had only forecast a new capacity from 2,500 megawatts to 3,500 megawatts.

Solar power has become more competitive, making room for cuts to the subsidies, and showing that it is "a success story amid the country's transformation toward renewable energies," Environment Minister Norbert Roettgen said.

The government therefore wants to lower the guaranteed prices starting next month, he added. An initial cut of more than 20 percent will be deepened progressively so that the price will be on average some 30 percent lower by next January.

German government to cut subsidies supporting solar power by up to 30 percent - chicagotribune.com

In other words, subsidies are being cut because the program brought in twice what they expected. It's been a great success.

Oh good. If it's such a success we can look forward to seeing explosive growth after the subsidies have been ended. Oh wait... in this country most people stop going green when the subsidy which is the only way to profit or just break even with green tech ends.

 

[rdean]

Homeowners and private investors installed new solar power capacity of about 7,500 megawatts last year, while the government had only forecast a new capacity from 2,500 megawatts to 3,500 megawatts.

Solar power has become more competitive, making room for cuts to the subsidies, and showing that it is "a success story amid the country's transformation toward renewable energies," Environment Minister Norbert Roettgen said.

The government therefore wants to lower the guaranteed prices starting next month, he added. An initial cut of more than 20 percent will be deepened progressively so that the price will be on average some 30 percent lower by next January.

German government to cut subsidies supporting solar power by up to 30 percent - chicagotribune.com

In other words, subsidies are being cut because the program brought in twice what they expected. It's been a great success.

Oh good. If it's such a success we can look forward to seeing explosive growth after the subsidies have been ended. Oh wait... in this country most people stop going green when the subsidy which is the only way to profit or just break even with green tech ends.

If they are selling energy to the electric company, why should they stop? Are you sure you've thought this through?

 

[Baruch Menachem]

Oregon is heavily subsidizing solar as well. The amazing thing is that it does produce electric even on a cloudy day. My sister's neighbor put solar all over his roof. It is kind of weird to see his meter roll along for power that is going out to the grid, rather than coming in.

Of course, we do have the little issue of lots of darkness during the peak power period of use We are only getting 10 hours of sunlight right now.

And in Summer you have really heavy loads. Given the power draw in summer, I feel folks will be very disappointed at how little they produced compared to how much they consume.

 

[Big Fitz]

Homeowners and private investors installed new solar power capacity of about 7,500 megawatts last year, while the government had only forecast a new capacity from 2,500 megawatts to 3,500 megawatts.

Solar power has become more competitive, making room for cuts to the subsidies, and showing that it is "a success story amid the country's transformation toward renewable energies," Environment Minister Norbert Roettgen said.

The government therefore wants to lower the guaranteed prices starting next month, he added. An initial cut of more than 20 percent will be deepened progressively so that the price will be on average some 30 percent lower by next January.

German government to cut subsidies supporting solar power by up to 30 percent - chicagotribune.com

In other words, subsidies are being cut because the program brought in twice what they expected. It's been a great success.

Oh good. If it's such a success we can look forward to seeing explosive growth after the subsidies have been ended. Oh wait... in this country most people stop going green when the subsidy which is the only way to profit or just break even with green tech ends.

If they are selling energy to the electric company, why should they stop? Are you sure you've thought this through?

Are they actually making a profit when you calculate the EROEI and ROI when you remove the subsidy?

It's easy to make a profit when you're given so much for free.

 

[Big Fitz]

Oregon is heavily subsidizing solar as well. The amazing thing is that it does produce electric even on a cloudy day. My sister's neighbor put solar all over his roof. It is kind of weird to see his meter roll along for power that is going out to the grid, rather than coming in.

Of course, we do have the little issue of lots of darkness during the peak power period of use We are only getting 10 hours of sunlight right now.

And in Summer you have really heavy loads. Given the power draw in summer, I feel folks will be very disappointed at how little they produced compared to how much they consume.

I've maintained it all along. Solar and wind are residential supplimental power supplies that can never carry the freight when it comes to even moderate commercial and industrial loads. And of course, are useless for transportation needs.

 

[Cuyo]

Why do some take pride and glee in failures to replace fossil fuel?

Last time I asked that question, I got some harangue about tax dollars.

But this here's Germany.

So, I re-posit- Why do you freakin assholes take such pleasure in the failures of something that has such great potential?

 

[Big Fitz]

Why do some take pride and glee in failures to replace fossil fuel?

Last time I asked that question, I got some harangue about tax dollars.

But this here's Germany.

So, I re-posit- Why do you freakin assholes take such pleasure in the failures of something that has such great potential?

If the value on investment was there, government subsidy would not be required. It's not a good use of resources and funds as compared to say Nukes, Hydro or Coal. Shit, even Gas peaking plants are better. Nobody's hoping for failure. It's already obvious it's failed, and we need to be smarter with our money rather than throwing it into a money pit.

 

[whitehall]

It seems to be more than a coincidence that the push to unusable and expensive "alternate" energy came just when the economy tanked. We don't have time for this nonsense but the left keeps pushing us deeper and deeper into the alternate energy hole while left wing "scientists" fudge data in order to blame the US for the drought in Africa. Is it a coincidence or are we in the middle of a socialist coup?

 

[Big Fitz]

It seems to be more than a coincidence that the push to unusable and expensive "alternate" energy came just when the economy tanked. We don't have time for this nonsense but the left keeps pushing us deeper and deeper into the alternate energy hole while left wing "scientists" fudge data in order to blame the US for the drought in Africa. Is it a coincidence or are we in the middle of a socialist coup?

The good news is that the worse the economy gets, the less cash for big price tag failures like green energy and these programs will be phased out into the background to simmer along for another 25-50 years and see if any breakthroughs happen to make them bigger, better, faster, stronger, cheaper finally.

THEN the world will beat down their door.

 

[Cuyo]

Why do some take pride and glee in failures to replace fossil fuel?

Last time I asked that question, I got some harangue about tax dollars.

But this here's Germany.

So, I re-posit- Why do you freakin assholes take such pleasure in the failures of something that has such great potential?

If the value on investment was there, government subsidy would not be required. It's not a good use of resources and funds as compared to say Nukes, Hydro or Coal. Shit, even Gas peaking plants are better. Nobody's hoping for failure. It's already obvious it's failed, and we need to be smarter with our money rather than throwing it into a money pit.

Edison once said something along the lines of 'I have not failed 1000 times. I have not failed once. I have succeeded in proving that those 1000 ways do not work.' (paraphrased)

Thoughts? Should he have given it up and changed his lab into a candle factory?

 

[rdean]

Oregon is heavily subsidizing solar as well. The amazing thing is that it does produce electric even on a cloudy day. My sister's neighbor put solar all over his roof. It is kind of weird to see his meter roll along for power that is going out to the grid, rather than coming in.

Of course, we do have the little issue of lots of darkness during the peak power period of use We are only getting 10 hours of sunlight right now.

And in Summer you have really heavy loads. Given the power draw in summer, I feel folks will be very disappointed at how little they produced compared to how much they consume.

As Solar Power Advances, Companies Look to Profit | Fox Business

Some of the advances that will be coming to industry are composites that can harvest energy from the entire spectrum. Another is adding fiber optics so the panel looks like microscopic shag carpeting. With this setup, you don't need to rotate the panel at all. Light is absorbed from any angle and transmitted by the fiber optics.

For many, desktop PC's will be a thing of the past as notebooks and droids and iPods take ever. Things are rapidly changing.

 

[Big Fitz]

Last time I asked that question, I got some harangue about tax dollars.

But this here's Germany.

So, I re-posit- Why do you freakin assholes take such pleasure in the failures of something that has such great potential?

If the value on investment was there, government subsidy would not be required. It's not a good use of resources and funds as compared to say Nukes, Hydro or Coal. Shit, even Gas peaking plants are better. Nobody's hoping for failure. It's already obvious it's failed, and we need to be smarter with our money rather than throwing it into a money pit.

Edison once said something along the lines of 'I have not failed 1000 times. I have not failed once. I have succeeded in proving that those 1000 ways do not work.' (paraphrased)

Thoughts? Should he have given it up and changed his lab into a candle factory?

Did Edison or any other lightbulb manufacturer receive the equivalent of billions of dollars in government funds to invent the lightbulb?

I believe the answer is: No.

 

[tinydancer]

The Chicago Tribune article is so out of step with every other article out there on this.

Lomborg in a piece in the Korean Times goes even farther than the original piece I put up from the National Post. Make sure you check out his stats on how this grand experiment didn't do jack shit to reduce CO2 emissions.

I want to be careful I don't violate copyright rules again so I'll just put up some glaring statements.


This truly contradicts the "rosy" picture in the Tribune piece.

There is a fundamental problem with subsidizing inefficient green technology: it is affordable only if it is done in tiny, tokenistic amounts. Using the government’s generous subsidies, Germans installed 7.5 gigawatts of photovoltaic (PV) capacity last year, more than double what the government had deemed “acceptable.” It is estimated that this increase alone will lead to a $260 hike in the average consumer’s annual power bill.

According to Der Spiegel, even members of Chancellor Angela Merkel’s staff are now describing the policy as a massive money pit. Philipp Rosler, Germany’s minister of economics and technology, has called the spiraling solar subsidies a “threat to the economy.”

AND

Defenders of Germany’s solar subsidies also claim that they have helped to create “green jobs.” But each job created by green-energy policies costs an average of $175,000 ― considerably more than job creation elsewhere in the economy, such as infrastructure or health care. And many “green jobs” are being exported to China, meaning that Europeans subsidize Chinese jobs, with no CO2 reductions.

Germany?s sunshine daydream

 

[tinydancer]

From Der Spiegel:

 

[MikeK]

Markets care only for money.
If Germany decides to "exit" solar-energy then only because of Germany's climate. They'll put the money from unproductive solar-energy into other renewable-tech which more suits Germany.

They subsidized everything with "watering-can"-principle.

You're quite correct.

(Excerpt)

Germany continues to lead Europe as the number one wind energy country with 27,214 MW of installed capacity. In 2010, the country added 1,493 MW, including 108 MW offshore. The annual market was smaller than in 2009, when 1,917 MW was installed. This was mainly a consequence of the financial crisis, as well as investment insecurity created by government decisions in 2010 to prolong the lifetime of nuclear plants in Germany.

Wind energy generated 37.3 TWh of electricity in 2010, which accounted for 6.2% of the country’s power consumption. In total, 17% of electricity was generated from renewable sources in Germany in 2010, with wind being the single largest contributor.

The leading German federal state in terms of wind power deployment is Lower Saxony with 6,664 MW of wind power capacity. A number of states now generate more than 40% of their electricity from wind energy: Saxony-Anhalt (52.14%), Mecklenburg-Vorpommern (45.37%) and Schleswig-Holstein (44.1%).

In 2011, the German wind industry expects new installations of about 1,800 MW including 300 MW of offshore wind.

According to the Germany Wind Energy Association (BWE), the country could host 45,000 MW of onshore and 10,000 MW of offshore wind by 2020. Generating approximately 150 TWh/year, wind energy would then deliver about 25% of German electricity consumption.

(Close)

Global Wind Energy Council - GWEC: Germany